Mini 690 - Grimmmafia (Game over, the flavor returns...)

[Porkens]

Mod edit
Official Votecount:
Gorrad (4): Plum, CoheedCambria09, dahill1, wolframnhart
Porkens (3): sirdanilot, kloud1516, Biohazard
Fleurdelys (1): SpyreX
SpyreX (1): fleurdelys
sirdanilot (1): Porkens

Not voting (1): Gorrad

With 11 alive it's 6 to lynch.

w-h-a-t. Are you really seriously using this craplogic? How is her not knowing the exact quote tags even anything that resembles a sign that remotely suggest a scum tell?...Feel free to reply to point 6

Well, maybe she really doesn't know. Whining in the open that she doesn't have any idea how to use quotes could further that agenda that she is a clueless noob.

Interesting bit on the WIFOM. It's a classic example of craplogic. 'Why would scum do something scummy that draws attention to themselves?'

So you are saying that;
A) I intentionally pulled attention onto myself with my actions in order to double-secret fool you that I am not scum because I am TOO scummy.
B) I hopped on the fleur wagon hopping for a quick lynch but then hopped off of it ONE POST LATER because my master plans "lay in ruins"?

Am I reading that correctly?

This is known as the

too-scummy argument

. Generally, too scummy arguments are very bad arguments and are to be avoided, since they only generate more WIFOM. If someone does something scummy, and you say something like 'wait, hold on, no way scum would've done something like that', then every scum tell becomes a big cesspool of WIFOM.

I think you're putting WAY too much weight on the WIFOM in this situation.

1. So my case on you strikes you as opportunistic. Are you serious? That's just ridiculous. At the time, I was the VERY FIRST to post anything that even remotely expressed suspicion of you. [/b]

You know, you're right. I miss-remembered the chain of events. I retract the accusation that your case was opportunistic.

Wait, hold on. Firstly, I did not only focus on you, I've talked about Gorrad as well. I am focusing on two people, and I am talking about/with two others. Can I be any less tunnel visioned without that it loses its effect?

Sort the thread to show only your own posts, and quote everything you said about Gorrard.

Wait, I'll just do it for you...

When one of Porkens/Gorrad's alignment is confirmed at some point in the game, this page would certainly be worth looking back to.

Anyway, I find porken's defense on this page very interesting, and Gorrad's as well. I think we're on to something here.

It's interesting that Porkens claims to have known fleur's mission before she claimed it. And some of Gorrad's reactions are a bit iffy.

I am not assuming anything. I find it more likely that a pro-town character has to find someone than an anti-town. I just think that it's better to wait to lynch fleur until we have more information, especially since we have two people that are more suspicious, namely Porkens and Gorrad.

Nope. I think you can see from miles away that your tunnel vision on fleur is way worse than my focus on Porkens. I am open minded about the Gorrad case, and as you saw from my first post I was open minded about fleur as well, I just think that we shouldn't lynch her yet.

And I never liked meta defenses Gorrad, especially since nobody really attacked your playstyle and it's a good way to avoid real attacks.

Gorrad: First, the newbie card vs. 'fleur is newbie town'. Second, the meta defense. Third, the softclaim followed by this statement. Fourth, active lurking.

Wait, hold on. Firstly, I did not only focus on you, I've talked about Gorrad as well. I am focusing on two people, and I am talking about/with two others. Can I be any less tunnel visioned without that it loses its effect?

2. Gorrad lynch: Gives as much information as a Porkens lynch, but I find him slightly less scummy for now.

All either agreeing with what other's have said or lumping him in with me.

I also noticed how you didn't adress your chainsaw defense of fleur against spyreX.

[kloud1516]

I don't understand your first post. Finding a person to be pro-town is far from assuming them to town? I'd think that if a person finds a player pro-town then they could assume the player to be town because if all the players found people to be pro-town but had doubts of assuming them town then it would affect the way to scumhunt because they can't lock on in any people if everybody they see isn't town but acts protown. Also wheter I think all discussion helps, yes I do. I'm not sure what TA is but I think at the moment it's irrelivant to the current game at hand. If you believe all discussion doesn't help then state your reasons instead of just trying to fit it to your liking so you can defend your non-participation in discussion.

I assume nothing. I base the fact that I think he's protown on no assumptions,

but on logic.

And what logic would this be? I must have missed something during my read through. If you have already provided reasoning, then could you please simply state the post numbers so that I can more easily find the submissions?

Frankly, if y'all can't be bothered to even read the other times this exact same case has been made against me (and I assure you, it has), then I see no reason to defend myself further.

1) This is a great attitude to have.
2) This may be true, but of those other instances, how many of them showed you to indeed be scum? In my opinion, meta can only be a means of defense to a certain extent, as each scenario is going to be a different case (much like tossing a coin).

Oh, and for the scum that may or may not be pressing me- my role is probably the coolest one I've seen in a long time. However, it has an unexpected upside- if I die, it does hurt town, but it hurts scum almost as much. It's one of those everyone loses scenarios (looses the scenario, not the game or anything). You aren't getting a lick more out of me until my neck is more on the line than this, but scum keep that in mind.

Subtle Appeal to Emotion?

Oh, and for the scum that may or may not be pressing me- my role is probably the coolest one I've seen in a long time. However, it has an unexpected upside- if I die, it does hurt town, but it hurts scum almost as much. It's one of those everyone loses scenarios (looses the scenario, not the game or anything).

this is sounding to me a lot like Fleur's "I am valuable to scum and to town" post she did.

same thought popped into my mind

I agree.

Unlike Fleur, I know what I'm talking about.

And this makes you less likely to be scum because? A suspicious action is still going to be suspicious no matter how much experience said player may/may not have. Harping on Fleur's lack of experience isn't going to change that.

kloud: Lurking. 40%

Not lurking, just extremely busy IRL and struggling to stay afloat. I was v/la all of last week, so I hope this adds into your reasoning.

[kloud1516]

With what was just said,
why are the two ahead?

[SpyreX]

FoS: Fleur

CoheedCambria09 wrote:
Ok, so first of all Fleur, you arn't helping yourself out at all. When asked to refute a case against yourself, do it. And do it legitmately.

Secondly for me, today, I think that the lynch should be either porkens or gorrad, both who have fairly solid cases built against them by multiple different people. This isnt saying we still shouldnt be watching Fleur for any more slippups,

but the other two are higher in my scum books.

QFT

.

With all that you said,
why those two ahead?

[kloud1516]

FoS: Fleur

CoheedCambria09 wrote:
Ok, so first of all Fleur, you arn't helping yourself out at all. When asked to refute a case against yourself, do it. And do it legitmately.

Secondly for me, today, I think that the lynch should be either porkens or gorrad, both who have fairly solid cases built against them by multiple different people. This isnt saying we still shouldnt be watching Fleur for any more slippups,

but the other two are higher in my scum books.

QFT

.

With all that you said,
why those two ahead?

Reasoning for Porkens - Posts:

196
360

And this:

I'm here. I'm actively lurking.

No prod necessary.

Dahil1, I'll get you your answers v. soon, I promise.

Granted, this could indeed simply be sarcasm, but if so, it wasn't necessary. Simply stating that he was actively lurking does not sit well with me, as doing so has no benefit for the town.

Reasoning for Gorrad - Posts:

426
196 (To a lesser extent, due to the inconsistencies in his earlier statements and those at the time)

[CoheedCambria09]

FoS: Fleur

CoheedCambria09 wrote:
Ok, so first of all Fleur, you arn't helping yourself out at all. When asked to refute a case against yourself, do it. And do it legitmately.

Secondly for me, today, I think that the lynch should be either porkens or gorrad, both who have fairly solid cases built against them by multiple different people. This isnt saying we still shouldnt be watching Fleur for any more slippups,

but the other two are higher in my scum books.

QFT

.

With all that you said,
why those two ahead?

I don't understand you either spyrex. What do you mean?

[kloud1516]

FoS: Fleur

CoheedCambria09 wrote:
Ok, so first of all Fleur, you arn't helping yourself out at all. When asked to refute a case against yourself, do it. And do it legitmately.

Secondly for me, today, I think that the lynch should be either porkens or gorrad, both who have fairly solid cases built against them by multiple different people. This isnt saying we still shouldnt be watching Fleur for any more slippups,

but the other two are higher in my scum books.

QFT

.

With all that you said,
why those two ahead?

I don't understand you either spyrex. What do you mean?

Um, see post above. He wanted me to explain why I felt Porkens and Gorrad were better candidates for the Day 1 lynch as opposed to Fleur (at least that is what I am assuming).

[CoheedCambria09]

rigtheo, you posted that right when I was posting mine, clears things up.

[SpyreX]

You're both correct,
in what I suspect.

I guess its opinion,
but fleur has dominion

[CoheedCambria09]

@ Spyrex: would you support a Gorrad lynch if the Fleur lynch is not available?...or a Porkens lynch?

[SpyreX]

Gorrad is chargin'
to second with margin.

Porkens as is,
not part of my biz'.

So if the first goes to the slammer,
I'd be willing to hammer.

Let me be clear,
to all who would hear.

If you decide she is fun,
she's not getting the gun.

The choice of my kill,
is up to my will.

So if you let her slip,
better be sure of the flip.

[Gorrad]

Y'know what? Screw it. I'm bloody well going to confirm myself and get all this out of the way so y'all can actually focus attention on scum.

I'm the Narrator.

I write the flavor.

If I die, there's not only no flavor, but allignments/roles aren't revealed on death, meaning the town don't know who they've killed and the scum don't know which town power roles they've offed. Please note the twilight rules in the first post. After lynch and after night choices are in, I'm sent who died and I write the flavor.

I breadcrumbed this in the opening scene when I not only quoted 'Into the Woods' (Where the narrator gets pulled into the story) but wrote 'How the story goes is as much up to you as it is to me', as that is true: I write the story according to the town's actions. If y'all don't believe me, I can prove it when I write the night scene.

Now let's lynch scum.

Vote: Biohazard

[Plum]

First, sorry if it's been longer than it should have been without a post from me. Last night there wasn't a huge amount I felt I had something pressing to give my opinion about; there's been a good deal of posting today, though, so to get down to business:

Porkens and Sirdanilot: Porkens on Fleur's lack of quote-formatting knowledge is a bit vague, but rediculous. Not 'over the top', sorry, I've seen this out of non-scum and it in no way resembles a scumtell, not until she tries to use it to keep herself from being lynched with her back to the wall, telling us she's a harmless newb-town, and even then would be iffy minor bacup reasoning at best. At best. About how far we let Fleur's newbiness slide: She's definitely become a liability for town already. It's hard to answer this question, though we

do

have a claimed vig who happens to think Fleur is pretty scummy.

Not

advocating doing that (like SpyreX said: 'My target stays inside,/So they cant run and hide.'), but noting that while we have a town-aligned NK on the menu it should be used to best advantage. Also, yeah, the 'actively lurking' admission was weird. Again, while his vote looked fairly opportunistic, I don't find the unvote and assumption of mission very scummy. Fleur's claim was worded such that the 'beautiful girl' was prominent, so I don't find Porken's mental leap to finding the princess rediculous. WIFOM, but why would that be more of a scumtell than a towntell anyway? At best if Fleur flips scum Porkens looks a bit more suspicious. However Sirdanilot on reread does seem a bit locked to the Porkens case before the exchanges I'm commenting on. Sirdanilot basically cased and voted Porkens in his first post (fine), second post is vaguely uneasy with both Porkens and Gorrad, next vote is a question on what turned out to be a typo by Fleur, next notes suspicion at Porkens' sudden completion of SpyreX's mission, next asks SpyreX to look at the Porkens case and avoid tunnel-visioning Fleur, next challenges SpyreX on his view of Porkens on specifics of the case, whatever Fleur's alignment, etc. Nothing he says is ligitimately unwarranted, but it does seem like there's some element of tunnel vision here. As Porkens showed, not much strong discussion from him about his apparent #2 scum (do I have it wrong? If so, I apologize), and as above, quite a lot of talk about Porkens and whether he was being scrutinized enough and such. I'll keep my eye on Sirdanilot.

Upgrade to a

HOS: Porkens

. Looking worse, not better.

I like Kloud's points about Fleur's contradictory stances on how important her role was or not; well noted. Fleur, I'm

still

waiting for a logical, decent defense against SpyreX's case on you, post #327. The more you wait and stall the less impressed I am and the more I find you scummy. Get to it ASAP, if you'd be so kind.

Gorrad's claim: Interesting. I'd like more information before I unvote, if I end up doing that. Pie is good, and flavor doesn't seem like it'll always dictate alignment clearly, not that Narrator would indicate anything outright, except maybe neutral/self aligned, though I'm definitely not assuming it is. Didn't see the second breadcrumb you mention; doesn't matter. Basically, I'm still not comfortable with too many of your actions, as I've elaborated. Kloud's posts #426 questioning you is very relevent and I'd be very interested to see your responses here, too.

Players in order of suspicios characters in my view, least to most, excluding myself. When in Rome . . .

Kloud
Biohazard
SpyreX/CoheedCambria/Dahill (about the same)
Wolframnhart
Sirdanilot
Porkens/Fleur (about the same)
Gorrad

[Gorrad]

I don't understand your first post. Finding a person to be pro-town is far from assuming them to town? I'd think that if a person finds a player pro-town then they could assume the player to be town because if all the players found people to be pro-town but had doubts of assuming them town then it would affect the way to scumhunt because they can't lock on in any people if everybody they see isn't town but acts protown. Also wheter I think all discussion helps, yes I do. I'm not sure what TA is but I think at the moment it's irrelivant to the current game at hand. If you believe all discussion doesn't help then state your reasons instead of just trying to fit it to your liking so you can defend your non-participation in discussion.

I assume nothing. I base the fact that I think he's protown on no assumptions,

but on logic.

And what logic would this be? I must have missed something during my read through. If you have already provided reasoning, then could you please simply state the post numbers so that I can more easily find the submissions?

Frankly, if y'all can't be bothered to even read the other times this exact same case has been made against me (and I assure you, it has), then I see no reason to defend myself further.

1) This is a great attitude to have.
2) This may be true, but of those other instances, how many of them showed you to indeed be scum? In my opinion, meta can only be a means of defense to a certain extent, as each scenario is going to be a different case (much like tossing a coin).

Oh, and for the scum that may or may not be pressing me- my role is probably the coolest one I've seen in a long time. However, it has an unexpected upside- if I die, it does hurt town, but it hurts scum almost as much. It's one of those everyone loses scenarios (looses the scenario, not the game or anything). You aren't getting a lick more out of me until my neck is more on the line than this, but scum keep that in mind.

Subtle Appeal to Emotion?

Oh, and for the scum that may or may not be pressing me- my role is probably the coolest one I've seen in a long time. However, it has an unexpected upside- if I die, it does hurt town, but it hurts scum almost as much. It's one of those everyone loses scenarios (looses the scenario, not the game or anything).

this is sounding to me a lot like Fleur's "I am valuable to scum and to town" post she did.

same thought popped into my mind

I agree.

Unlike Fleur, I know what I'm talking about.

And this makes you less likely to be scum because? A suspicious action is still going to be suspicious no matter how much experience said player may/may not have. Harping on Fleur's lack of experience isn't going to change that.

kloud: Lurking. 40%

Not lurking, just extremely busy IRL and struggling to stay afloat. I was v/la all of last week, so I hope this adds into your reasoning.

1) That would be the fact that I find it highly unlikely that he is OMGUSing. Scum would not take the risk- consider, he's fulfilling a new game mechanic that so far no one had any idea the results. Who knew what mission completion did? And yet he just went out and did it. That's not a gambit a smart scum would make.

2) In none of them that I can recall was I scum.

3) Aye, scum emotion.

4) It's less scummy because, as I just showed, I can back it up.

5) It helps your case, yes.

Plum, consider- even if I'm lying about my allignment, my role is clear and confirmable, and I'm frankly shocked that you'd be willing to risk keeping me at L-1 considering the consequences should I die.

Unvote, Vote: Plum

. Biohazard, while I still dislike the cases he made, doesn't compare to this.

There, my interest is peaked. Congrats. More Plum votes.

[Biohazard]

Y'know what? Screw it. I'm bloody well going to confirm myself and get all this out of the way so y'all can actually focus attention on scum.

I'm the Narrator.

I write the flavor.

If I die, there's not only no flavor, but allignments/roles aren't revealed on death, meaning the town don't know who they've killed and the scum don't know which town power roles they've offed. Please note the twilight rules in the first post. After lynch and after night choices are in, I'm sent who died and I write the flavor.

I breadcrumbed this in the opening scene when I not only quoted 'Into the Woods' (Where the narrator gets pulled into the story) but wrote 'How the story goes is as much up to you as it is to me', as that is true: I write the story according to the town's actions. If y'all don't believe me, I can prove it when I write the night scene.

Now let's lynch scum.

Vote: Biohazard

So instead of responding to anything I said to you immediatly you shoot at me with an OMGUS vote. Gorrad honestly this is ridiculous.Your claim I don't think could of been forged however if your town this is bad. YOU SHOULD HAVE NOT CLAIMED. It's day one and we're already getting out of hand with role claims. If a night kill happens on you where is that going to leave the town? "

Scum are the only people who know who's town so if one of them is lynched and your role is true and your dead then they have the upper hand as town won't know if scum was lynched

" You should not have outed yourself especially if their was other ways around it. Basically you threw yourself out there to justify an OMGUS vote on me. Seriously Gorrad stop acting foolish and get your head into the game.

[Biohazard]

1) That would be the fact that I find it highly unlikely that he is OMGUSing. Scum would not take the risk- consider, he's fulfilling a new game mechanic that so far no one had any idea the results. Who knew what mission completion did? And yet he just went out and did it. That's not a gambit a smart scum would make.

2) In none of them that I can recall was I scum.

3) Aye, scum emotion.

4) It's less scummy because, as I just showed, I can back it up.

5) It helps your case, yes.

Plum, consider- even if I'm lying about my allignment, my role is clear and confirmable, and I'm frankly shocked that you'd be willing to risk keeping me at L-1 considering the consequences should I die.

Unvote, Vote: Plum

. Biohazard, while I still dislike the cases he made, doesn't compare to this

.

There, my interest is peaked. Congrats. More Plum votes.

.....

[Gorrad]

I was at L-1, so I claimed. Would you prefer I be lynched?

[SpyreX]

Y'know what? Screw it. I'm bloody well going to confirm myself and get all this out of the way so y'all can actually focus attention on scum.

I'm the Narrator.

I write the flavor.

If I die, there's not only no flavor, but allignments/roles aren't revealed on death, meaning the town don't know who they've killed and the scum don't know which town power roles they've offed. Please note the twilight rules in the first post. After lynch and after night choices are in, I'm sent who died and I write the flavor.

I breadcrumbed this in the opening scene when I not only quoted 'Into the Woods' (Where the narrator gets pulled into the story) but wrote 'How the story goes is as much up to you as it is to me', as that is true: I write the story according to the town's actions. If y'all don't believe me, I can prove it when I write the night scene.

Now let's lynch scum. Vote: Biohazard

You write the flavor?
The mod is our savior.

If town this is a bore,
and ultimately a chose.

If scum you meet,
this would be a treat.

And how does flip,
tie in with your quip

Perhaps just the text,
I could have seen best.

How to confirm with your heart,
the important part?

I can't think this is true,
so I do what I do.

Unvote
Vote: Gorrad

[SpyreX]

*chose is wrong
for the name of my song

the rhyme for bore,
is obviously chore

I hope this mistake,
doesn't my heart break.

[dahill1]

if that was indeed the hammer, then SpyreX please DO NOT kill fleur tonight.

[Plum]

Ugh. Misread and thought you were at L-2. These last two pages or so haven't had a votecount, and I recalled CoheedCambria having thought you were at L-2. Should have checked myself. On recheck, you were at L-1.

Unvote:Gorrad

, at least so we ensure more discussion before whatever lynch we make today.

Though I'll say this: It's not so much about your role as your alignment. The town might suffer and the scum might suffer if you get lynched, but if your're scum the town will benefit most by lynching you anyway.

Shoot, did SpyreX just hammer? Preview has just proven me way too slow for this. Don't find you pro-town, but I didn't want it to come down like this at all.

[Gorrad]

Well, there we go. You chose poorly. This town has played terribly, almost every one of you. If SpyreX is killed and flips scum, so is Porkens. I'd wish you good luck but frankly, all the luck in the world won't help you now.

[Porkens]

Ummm...I don't think that's a hammer.

[SpyreX]

A role that never exists,
isn't to be missed.

Meta defense,
has consequence

I dont care about the role,
as much as the color of your soul

So yelling "I'm confirm"
just sounds like a worm

When from it no way
to tell what you say.

[SpyreX]

Also by my jive,
the number maxed at 5.