Mini 697: Prisoner's Dilemma Mafia {Game Over!}

[CarnCarn]

That, along with:

5. While imprisoned, those players cannot target others and cannot be targeted by others.

Maybe I'm an idiot, but I reread the rules and didn't see anything about night kills. Maybe you can point it out for me, godfather?

Yes, yes you are... even if I were GF, I couldn't possibly fake a guilty on someone else. If I did, I would get axed the next day.
I'm pretty sure you're scum, btw.

[icemanE]

There is nothing about NKs implicitly stated in the rules. Just because there are "other" actions to protect from besides investigation does not mean they're night kills.

even if I were GF, I couldn't possibly fake a guilty on someone else.

Who said anything about that? I meant you going to jail and getting investigated would turn up an innocent on you if you're godfather.

I'm pretty sure you're scum, btw.

With a vote, here we'd have OMGUS. No reasoning behind this.

[CarnCarn]

I meant you going to jail and getting investigated would turn up an innocent on you if you're godfather.

You don't get investigated when you go to jail; you get investigative powers if both of you choose "No"
If I were GF, or any other scum for that matter, I wouldn't be able to fake a guilty because it would get me killed the next day.

There is nothing about NKs implicitly stated in the rules. Just because there are "other" actions to protect from besides investigation does not mean they're night kills.

Well, with doc protection and the fact that the prisoners can't be night targeted, I assumed it was clear there would be NKs.

The more I think about this plan, the more I think it will fail because of NKs since it is really slow.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

Mod: Are there scum NKs?

Worth a shot.

I neither confirm nor deny whether there are scum NKs.

[icemanE]

You don't get investigated when you go to jail; you get investigative powers if both of you choose "No"
If I were GF, or any other scum for that matter, I wouldn't be able to fake a guilty because it would get me killed the next day.

Like I said, I never said anything about faking a guilty. What I'm saying is, following spring's plan (unless I'm misreading it or misunderstanding it), when you and spring (if you're the two that go to jail) cross investigate each other, spring will find you innocent if you're the godfather.

Well, with doc protection and the fact that the prisoners can't be night targeted, I assumed it was clear there would be NKs.

There are plenty of roles which do something other than NK - so I'm not convinced I buy what you're saying.

[CarnCarn]

What I'm saying is, following spring's plan (unless I'm misreading it or misunderstanding it), when you and spring (if you're the two that go to jail) cross investigate each other, spring will find you innocent if you're the godfather.

Ah, OK. Well, that's true, but it technically wouldn't do the town any harm by itself, unless I come back the next day with a fake-guilty that gets killed. btw, I am not a GF, that's just hypothetical.
But, the problem is, just to get to that step takes about 2-3 nights, which, if there are NKs, is a terrible plan for the town.
If you don't think there are NKs, then what is doc protect for? It's possible that it is only against the 50% chance of daykill, but I doubt it would be that limited.

Mod: Is the doc protect benefit choice applicable for day, night or both?

[Albert B. Rampage]

So yeah, I made this big post before on how to break the game, but it got deleted. I'll do the quick version here.

THE PLAN:

Elect arbitrarily* 2 players, X1 and Y1, to send to prison. They are to answer NO to the question. They are both to choose cop investigation the next day. They are to investigate each other.

If they find each other innocent, they are sent to prison again the next day. They again answer NO, and pick cop investigation. They then proceed to investigate another player of the town (both have to investigate the same person). This process is repeated until scum is found.

Upon positive investigation result, X1 and Y1 are sent to prison again. They are again to answer NO to the question, but this time they are pick to the daykill and target the found scum the following day. This process is repeated until the daykill goes through.

Provision 1, if one of X1-Y1 is found dead after a night in prison, a different couple of player, X2 and Y2, shall be elected to be sent to prison, they are to answer NO, investigate then daykill the surviving member of X1-Y1.

Provision 2, if a player investigated positive and daykilled by X1-Y1 cardflips town, a couple X2-Y2 shall be elected to investigate then and proceed accordingly.

Provision 3, if X and Y are in discord upon an investigation result, another couple of player are to be sent to prison to verify the result and act accordingly.



* or by popular vote of the towniest players.

Vulnerabilities to the plan:

# False positives: to avoid this MILLERS SHOULD CLAIM NOW
# Sanity of the cop: though it wouldn't make sense to twist investigation results in this game, this can be at least tested out before making any lethal commitment
# Godfather: my plan has no mean of detecting a GF, but hopefully we can weed out at least non-investigation immune scum before worrying about the GF
# Scum who can interfere with the answers given in Prison: if this ability exist, it would be worrying, but I think it is detectable enough with the double control system.
#Scum who are immune to daykill: well, detecting them first isn't half bad, we can worry about how to kill them after.

I think I haven't forgot anything. Your thoughts?

I support this plan and its creator.

[SlySly]

The plan seems to have holes in it to me, but that may just be my limited brain capacity. I think there are too many variables in this game for this plan to work effectively (possible nightkills, possible false investigation results, having to count on 2 no's each night in prison). In fact, just someone posting "a way to beat the game/mod" post seems, a) somewhat disrespectful to the mod and b) to be a somewhat scummy attempt at confusing the town.

I think the town is in need of an interrogation on you.

send:springlullaby

CarnCarn, with all your GF talk, it sure seems you are convinced there is a GF in the game. Perhaps you have some inside information that needs to be shared with the town?

send:CarnCarn

[CarnCarn]

CarnCarn, with all your GF talk, it sure seems you are convinced there is a GF in the game. Perhaps you have some inside information that needs to be shared with the town?

lol, I'm not even the one who brought it up. I have no idea if there is a GF and whether they would test innocent.

Also, if you think both spring and I are scum, why are you sending both of us into prison? You do realize that two scum in prison can both just choose the daykill option and randomly kill townies the next day?

[Albert B. Rampage]

On the other hand, its always more fun to

not

have a plan

[SlySly]

Also, if you think both spring and I are scum, why are you sending both of us into prison?

Well, it is kind of early in the day, and my vote on you was kind of random, but you got me thinking with your following statement...

You do realize that two scum in prison can both just choose the daykill option and randomly kill townies the next day?

I did not realize this. If what you say is true and both you and lullaby are scum, that would explain why you chose to send lullaby and yourself. Scum having two daykills would not be good.

unsend:CarnCarn

Are you saying or do you think we should be trying to send townies to interrogations instead of scum to avoid scum getting daykills?

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

Mod: Is the doc protect benefit choice applicable for day, night or both?

The doc protection bonus from those PD scenarios can only be used during the night.

[orangepenguin]

Oh, wow. This set-up is more confusing than I thought.

So we get too votes?


Since he was my lover in an old game and hasn't called since, I am going to also

send: IcemanE

[orangepenguin]

So we get too votes?

ER...I am a penguin. So I don't know how to spell so good. That should be two. Not too. Alright.

[icemanE]

Since he was my lover in an old game and hasn't called since, I am going to also send: IcemanE

I lost your number, I swear.

Are you saying or do you think we should be trying to send townies to interrogations instead of scum to avoid scum getting daykills?

To me it seems like the general idea is to avoid sending

two scum at once

, but really only late in the game. It seems to me scum wouldn't out themselves for two daykills on night one, but that's definitely something to be wary of later in the game.

[CarnCarn]

Mod: Is the doc protect benefit choice applicable for day, night or both?

The doc protection bonus from those PD scenarios can only be used during the night.

I really think this means NKs, despite the lack of an outright statement by the mod. I may be missing something, though.
Anyways, with NKs, and reconsidering how long spring's plan seems to take to do anything, I'm going to:

Unsend: springlullaby

Unsend: CarnCarn

[orangepenguin]

Since he was my lover in an old game and hasn't called since, I am going to also send: IcemanE

I lost your number, I swear.

You're seeing Fire again, aren't you? Just tell ME!

[RedCoyote]

Sorry to throw a monkey wrench into what would otherwise be a pretty logical plan, but how are the jailed people going to investigate each other? I mean, unless the power is carried over to N2 and THEN we have to jail two different people or else they couldn't investigate (they'd be in jail) right?

5. While imprisoned, those players cannot target others and cannot be targeted by others.

I think the plan was great thinking, but I cannot support it. This in addition to the Godfather, a possible Cultist role, a possible Lyncher role... any number of third party roles could mess up this "trust the original two jailed players with the key to the city" idea.

(Now I'll take this all back if someone can convince me the plan is still valid, but, in my opinion, it's been shot to pieces. There are two many variables, at least at this stage, to make it worthwhile.)

No, I think we need to consider good ol' fashioned scumhunting, and try our best to lock up mafia.

I think our biggest worry should be jailing scum who get powers the next day. We really want to avoid that, at least for D2 and beyond.

First and foremost, we should get D1 out of the way NOW and see what happens at night. We need to know how many people die, we need to know if anyone claims any roles tomorrow, and we need to know whether or not the jailed pick yea or nay. I think the sooner we come to a concensus the better. I would not be against ending the day before the deadline even.

Send: Crazy
Send: TonyMontana

Yay for random lyn... jailing.

But I do think it may be a good idea to push whoever the jailed end up being to vote no regardless. I'm still batting this idea around in my head, because if I was on the hot seat I can't say that I wouldn't feel tempted to squeal. But for the time being I'm really thinking we need to see what happens N1.

That said, I'm open to other ideas.

[TonyMontana]

Unsend: Humscunter
Send: ABR
Send: TonyMontana

The plan is flawed, and I think Coyote is right about us needing to get to day 2, seeing as there seems to be widespread confusion about the game mechanics.

[icemanE]

Here's a potential amendment to the plan - we should probably send one of the players back to jail for a second consecutive night, i.e.:

N1 - send hum and ABR
- They investigate each other (A note - it's DAYCOP investigation)
N2 - send ABR and Tony
- They investigate each other

...and so on, to prevent two scum from "clearing" each other with daycop investigations.

Thoughts?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Yeah sure.

[Crazy]

I assumed that there were night-kills, 'cuz there's doc protections. I really doubt this is an "inadvertant nightless" setup.

I'm good with SL's plan. I thought along those lines myself, except I didn't think of the two players investigating each

other

. It's probably more beneficial for them to investigate different people.

And since when is it the standard to throw off a plan because their "might" be a SK/Lyncher/etc. in the game? That's ridiculous. You might as well always ignore cop investigations because "well, there could be a miller."

The plan might need some tweaking, but we can work out anything we need to later. Let's just send two people to prison.

Oh, p.s., anyone here actually want to go to jail? Anyone here that doesn't?

[TonyMontana]

Oh, p.s., anyone here actually want to go to jail? Anyone here that doesn't?

I do, that's why i voted myself.
Also, I do fully support the town holding a jailee accountable if he doesn't vote no, in other words, exits with a dead protown in jail.

[DragonsofSummer]

send Crazy

send OrangePenguin

I have no problems with the plan at all, but it does get complicated there are night kills.

[orangepenguin]

unsend iceman

send springlullaby

I think her plan is pretty good.