Large Normal 238 | Weiqi, Baduk, Go | Endgame

[tenebrousluminary]

I did a quick skim and did not find the above. I also recall you acknowledging this and saying you would address it when you had more time.

[VP Baltar]

This is where I am at right now. I think I have too many town reads

town:

Frogsterking - 24, 71, 135, 194, 150

light town:

skitter30 - 33. 67. 172 bottom part sticks out a lot
Aristeia - 218 felt genuine. Voting monkey is good .
fireisredsir - 197 seems to take 178 a little too for granted. 87.
DeasVail - 110, 152, 168 for this last one, I think trying to randomly convince another person of a townread you have is town+.
GeneralWu

null:

Datisi (I will try again later idk),

light mafia:

tenebrousluminary - 116 just has a tone about it that I think looks not so great.

mafia:

humaneatingmonkey

206 makes me like fire and dislike frogs, mostly the townread on generalwu for those posts is questionable

False

both players look good off of that post.

Fire doesn't see it as a sort of joke read as I initially did.

Frogs somehow justifies this read GeneralWu as like "Huh do you mind elaborating why maf have more motivation to make friends than town?" which feels like such a stretch that it just wounds up being a towny stretch.

Wu needs to step the fuck up and start contributing to the game.

Okay coach. Make sure to tell him in your little "neighborhood"

VOTE: Cape

This seems sus for reasoning I think the foundation for will be apparent. Not sure how to explain it yet but I am hoping my wording will evolve into something people can understand.

Both I believe are a bit strange for different reasons, definitely would flip Nord over Wu, but I do kinda think Wu just kinda has been a nonpresence in the game.

I think that 2101 is an odd thing to comment on about the hood that they are not even a part of. Maybe they are trying to cool the discussion of this or just flat out know all 4 of us are town. Either way it feels like pretty empty speculation.

VOTE: GeneralWu

Latest postings from Eyes has been decent. I kinda like the double down on a... very meh post admittedly in 2427. I also kinda like 2404. I think General is a stronger vote then this and definitely Yeet

Also, fireisredsir defended me for a time, right?

this also looks like a WIFOM attempt at a frame job if General flips red

I think you are scum as people are defending you by attacking me versus explaining why they TR you.

You know, I think this might mean that some people defending me are scum.

There is also this which is pretty similar and is a bit generalized too

Here is Cape's full progression on Wu.

Has him as a light town read early on. Defends him a bit. Says he's been a nonpresence. Then votes him and gives three posts of reasoning why.

Like, I would totally buy "eh, I just wanted to end the day." The over explanation of the vote stinks. The progression of the read stinks. The not asking for a claim before hammering in a day when PRs got run up stinks.

Cape can go on and on about "VP is mean and has an agenda", but the facts are in Cape's posts and vote. That has nothing to do about agenda and if he was town, he'd spend his time explaining his thought process and reasoning rather than trying to shade me and act like he's a victim.

keep in mind, Yeet literally voted me first and VP literally passively called me town all of day 1.

I called you likely scum in the hood long before Yeet voted you. So what are you even saying here?

Yeah, I was never directly reached out about that. Maybe you should have literally asked me, especially if you think I am mafia for doing so, I am right there I literally can respond to you.

Oh yeah totally....

VOTE: Cape90 Let’s start with this greedy hammer vote. Sure it could be town miscounting but scum could totally use that as an excuse. I am unhappy that instead of running Wu up, we ended up straight hammering him, and I have seen scum just go for the kill because wifom. Why Cape is getting zero scrutiny is shocking to me.Plus they are in a hood with VP and Nero and skitter who I all believe to be stronger town than Cape atm.

VOTE: cape

Gonna be a min before I can catch up but this was also my read overnight.

Cape, can you explain how you went from calling Wu town to hammering him?

Also, why did you keep explaining your vote after you hammered?

OH SHIIIIIII......

Okay so I call Wu a "nonpresence" that isn't exactly the amazing townread you think it is

What I'm saying is that before that point you never expressed any interest whatsoever in voting Wu. You didn't push him on the previous wagons. You barely acknowledged his existence other than a light town read and a mild defense in a separate argument.

Why did you not ask him to claim before your hammer? This is the third (?) time I've asked. Did you answer that and I missed it?

These are all responding to points cape brings up, and furthering the discussion about his giant post

[VP Baltar]

The "your better then this!" thing seems forced in at 684.
In 750 VP was talking about how Nero was having this read on GeneralWu's fluffposting calling that "whatever". Anyway, oddly enough in 1293 they vote Wu, cool, so as a sidestep, how does that progress? 1344, 1939 (woah calm down there buddy, I thought Wu was "whatever" ). 1940, 1952, you know, just a casual getting aggressive, also HEM was mega towny at this point, especially with MathBlade on board so as they say in like middle school or something, ratio. gottem. 1995 Gotta ask Ari twice I guess. 2004, 2009, and then they just 2222 they, they.. they... vote yeet?? Oh let's ignore 2214 though . Well, there was 2381. But then like, a post later, they just... kinda swap back to GeneralWu (2388) who I still don't really get why VP pushed here. Also wouldn't Wu be the logical play? You said so yourself 2128.

If I'm giving Cape the benefit of the doubt here, this is so stream of conscious and aimless when it comes to speaking to actual scum motivation from me that is perhaps possible he just spent his morning building this post rather than my original thought that his wall was a honed attack at me. Could be emotional reaction from him to being voted and he is OMGUSing me.

[VP Baltar]

This is all pretty easy to find in my ISO

[Frogsterking]

I did a quick skim and did not find the above. I also recall you acknowledging this and saying you would address it when you had more time.

Did it look like this:

Compared to the above example, there is more structure in this game because Mizzy and theworst are able to stay on top of the votes, but there is far more chaos underlying that structure here than what I experienced in the above example, so I imagine the change may be more noticeable and seem even more pushable than it did before.

I'll give these a read today. thanks.

[tenebrousluminary]

Save 2807, those seem like mainly just trying to discredit him to me, but okay

[Yeet]

Why are you vote flopping so much? Like what is that achieving?

my current point with the votes (other than leaving landmarks for future!datisi to go through) is gathering information. either by actually building a wagon or seeing who's against it. whatever wagon i get on, someone pops in from the aether to convince everyone that that wagon is Bad, Actually. even if none of the reactions are immediately useful to me, they might be in the future.

I agree with this and it is partly why I am doing the same.

[VP Baltar]

Save 2807, those seem like mainly just trying to discredit him to me, but okay

Discredit him how? By calling his points bad and explaining why? What, specifically, do you think I have not addressed that should be?

[VP Baltar]

I did a quick skim and did not find the above. I also recall you acknowledging this and saying you would address it when you had more time.

Did it look like this:

Compared to the above example, there is more structure in this game because Mizzy and theworst are able to stay on top of the votes, but there is far more chaos underlying that structure here than what I experienced in the above example, so I imagine the change may be more noticeable and seem even more pushable than it did before.

I'll give these a read today. thanks.

Who are your scum reads and why?

[fireisredsir]

Why are you scum leaning me again, fire? I know you've been vaguely name dropping me, but don't think I understand why.

1) as an overall trend, the biggest thing for me is that i think a lot of your reads and takes feel pretty surface level in a way that lacks the nuance i would expect from an experienced player. like a prime recent example is 3266, hard to believe you really think that is scum-indicitave for nero, and why call it scummy if it's not? a few other recent examples are 2648, 2685, 2706, 2824

2) some of your pushes and interactions with people feel forced and artificial. 684, 1040, 1194, 1208 are examples. not a big deal imo but it pings (ping ping ping) a lil bit

3) didn't like the way you were leaving your options wide open and dancing around committing to specific scumreads today.

4) even yesterday i didn't really get the feeling you honestly believed wu was that scummy? just felt like you were filling the "good townie" role of herding people towards consolidating wagons (on 2 town btw), and then later you were just saying it was the "logical play" (2128) and that "we will get a lot of information" (1939), but then after the flip, you say "the wagon doesn't help clarify a ton for me" (2988), so i guess it wasn't a good information flip after all?

5) i don't really buy your cape suspicion, just doesn't feel genuine. like, 3249? tell me that's honest. you think he's maf cause of his hammer and that he has "done nothing" despite him being way more involved today? it feels like you feel obligated to be sus of him due to his case on you but it just doesn't feel like your heart is in it at all.

[VP Baltar]

Why are you scum leaning me again, fire? I know you've been vaguely name dropping me, but don't think I understand why.

1) as an overall trend, the biggest thing for me is that i think a lot of your reads and takes feel pretty surface level in a way that lacks the nuance i would expect from an experienced player. like a prime recent example is 3266, hard to believe you really think that is scum-indicitave for nero, and why call it scummy if it's not? a few other recent examples are 2648, 2685, 2706, 2824

2) some of your pushes and interactions with people feel forced and artificial. 684, 1040, 1194, 1208 are examples. not a big deal imo but it pings (ping ping ping) a lil bit

3) didn't like the way you were leaving your options wide open and dancing around committing to specific scumreads today.

4) even yesterday i didn't really get the feeling you honestly believed wu was that scummy? just felt like you were filling the "good townie" role of herding people towards consolidating wagons (on 2 town btw), and then later you were just saying it was the "logical play" (2128) and that "we will get a lot of information" (1939), but then after the flip, you say "the wagon doesn't help clarify a ton for me" (2988), so i guess it wasn't a good information flip after all?

5) i don't really buy your cape suspicion, just doesn't feel genuine. like, 3249? tell me that's honest. you think he's maf cause of his hammer and that he has "done nothing" despite him being way more involved today? it feels like you feel obligated to be sus of him due to his case on you but it just doesn't feel like your heart is in it at all.

1) Gonna have to agree to disagree on that one. The posts you're linking (nero intentionally removing context from a quote to shade me, for example) are absolutely worth me calling out. Might seem minor to you, but I do think there is scum in my neighborhood somewhere probably, and I'm going to push on things I don't like to try to flush that out and feel more confident in my own reads there. In terms of the other examples you cite, scum do actions that are contradictory to things they say in the game all the time. I call those out so either A) scum feel pressure or B) town doing stupid shit explain their thought process.

2) "feel forced" is another way to say "gut". I don't agree, but also can't really respond to that in any kind of concrete way.

3) How was I leaving my options open? I responded with a very concrete list when you asked. If I was leaving options open, I would have put far more people as potentials for me. I listed three stronger preferences.

4) I think that's a more fair point. I did come away from the Wu wagon thinking Cape and Yeet perhaps don't look great off it, but that's fewer reads than I was hoping when I went back overnight to look at the wagon and why people got on it. I was actually hoping for a scum flip though...that is what felt like it would have been very informative from it given the cycle of stagnation and resistance that wagon faced. You're correct that part of what i was doing yesterday was herding though. In my experience of larges, getting people to the finish line D1 is helpful for town in the long run. The Wu wagon could still prove to be more informative in the long run, but we'll need more dead bodies on it. (also why Fua failing to kill last night is kind of disappointing).

5) Cape is not doing much today. His case on me was not good if you actually read it, it's just large, which people too often conflate with "good". I addressed anything that would even remotely objectively be considered to be a real point, and showed why they are not good. Who is Cape pushing today? Other than popping in to say "anyone like an april wagon", I haven't seen him do much to further the game today. The fundamental consideration with Cape is whether you believe he didn't actually see the pile of votes on Wu before he hammered. After I deeply questioned him on this, I can maybe see a world where he did not, but if he's town I'd like to see a lot more from him today to help me get there in believing that.

[fireisredsir]

3) How was I leaving my options open? I responded with a very concrete list when you asked. If I was leaving options open, I would have put far more people as potentials for me. I listed three stronger preferences.

i had to ask you three times, and your first two responses felt like dodging the question. the final list was fine, im talking about how you felt reluctant to give one, and weren't really stating many scumreads until I asked you about it

5) Cape is not doing much today. His case on me was not good if you actually read it, it's just large, which people too often conflate with "good". I addressed anything that would even remotely objectively be considered to be a real point, and showed why they are not good. Who is Cape pushing today? Other than popping in to say "anyone like an april wagon", I haven't seen him do much to further the game today. The fundamental consideration with Cape is whether you believe he didn't actually see the pile of votes on Wu before he hammered. After I deeply questioned him on this, I can maybe see a world where he did not, but if he's town I'd like to see a lot more from him today to help me get there in believing that.

i think cape's case had a couple good points but overall wasn't amazing but was also pretty towny for cape. im just really unenthused by the hammer as being a main reason of suspicion, like wu was gonna die at that point. imo he clearly didn't know it was a hammer but i don't really think it's ai either way. all of that is irrelevant to my point tho which is that i don't feel like cape being your top scumread is supported by your prior tone or behavior. i just don't see the town in you on that point. if you're sus of him bc of his case on you being bad just say that. that's what i FEEL from you, but your words give other reasons that are kinda weak and don't feel like you really care about them that much. it smells like someone who does genuinely think the case is bad, and is annoyed about that, but doesn't want to sus for that bc that would look bad or something. and that smells more like maf to me

[tenebrousluminary]

I would be tempted to sheep fire indefinitely if they were not anti-me.

[fireisredsir]

if vp and/or fua are scum then ill probs be convinced i was wrong about you

i already was heading that way when i was pretty sure fua was maf but then they claimed so that went out the window. but maybe they're maf anyway

[VP Baltar]

i had to ask you three times, and your first two responses felt like dodging the question. the final list was fine, im talking about how you felt reluctant to give one, and weren't really stating many scumreads until I asked you about it

I don't agree and I think the way you were asking questions was not really clear, which is why I asked follow ups to clarify what you were actually wanting. I'm not a mind reader.

[VP Baltar]

Save 2807, those seem like mainly just trying to discredit him to me, but okay

Discredit him how? By calling his points bad and explaining why? What, specifically, do you think I have not addressed that should be?

You going to answer this tenebros?

[VP Baltar]

i think cape's case had a couple good points but overall wasn't amazing but was also pretty towny for cape.

Why was a case that you admit is not that good towny?

I don't have experience with cape, so is this meta I'm not understanding?

[VP Baltar]

if you're sus of him bc of his case on you being bad just say that. that's what i FEEL from you, but your words give other reasons that are kinda weak and don't feel like you really care about them that much. it smells like someone who does genuinely think the case is bad, and is annoyed about that, but doesn't want to sus for that bc that would look bad or something. and that smells more like maf to me

I don't think his response to immediately OMGUS me with some

le sigh

wall because I pushed on him is a super town response.

Think about this from my perspective: I telegraphed overnight in the hood that I was going to come at cape. I vote him for reasons I made clear ahead of time, and his response is to go super overboard trying to shade me with a lot of filler that is NAI. That is supposed to look good to me? Obviously I have a bias here, but I don't think I've treated cape unfairly in the slightest.

[fireisredsir]

i think cape's case had a couple good points but overall wasn't amazing but was also pretty towny for cape.

Why was a case that you admit is not that good towny?

I don't have experience with cape, so is this meta I'm not understanding?

it's not that it's towny because it's not good, it's towny cause it feels, as you called it, "stream of consciousness and aimless". it's kinda disorganized but it shows a clear thought process. idk cape meta cause he only has a few games and all are town but it does fit in pretty well with how he posts as town from what ive read

[VP Baltar]

i think cape's case had a couple good points but overall wasn't amazing but was also pretty towny for cape.

Why was a case that you admit is not that good towny?

I don't have experience with cape, so is this meta I'm not understanding?

it's not that it's towny because it's not good, it's towny cause it feels, as you called it, "stream of consciousness and aimless". it's kinda disorganized but it shows a clear thought process. idk cape meta cause he only has a few games and all are town but it does fit in pretty well with how he posts as town from what ive read

Yeah, I mean, the aimlessness of that mid section of the case could be town. It could also just be trying to make a thin post look beefier, but if I'm being generous with cape, that is why I would lean town there if I was going to.

It of course feels more like bullshit to me because I can see my role PM.

[Eyes without a face]

I am at the bottom of page 123 and

at that point

I think I have more or less developed reads that look like this:

Town reads: Nero, VP, Enchant, fire, STD, Deas

Almost-Town: Yeet, Malcolm

Can't decide: Scorp, Datisi, skitter, April, Cape

Scum leans: tene, frog

Note that these are mostly impressions although claims do play a part of it. Also names in each category are not necessarily ordered

[VP Baltar]

Why the enchant hard town read?

[Datisi]

okay, i've made about half of the powerpoint i need to do by saturday, i'm overcaffeinated, let's see

there were 3 quick votes on wu by me, vp, and monkey (i think? i'm not going back to check again) and nero didn't really say anything despite definitely being around and still being willing to hammer. need to check what his reason earlier today was for shading the 3 quick votes on frogs, but if it wasn't anything more nuanced than "quick votes bad", it'll be hmm

2435 is definitely a post scum!me would make in order to go "ackchually i didn't know it was hammer i didn't count hehehe" and my short history of playing with cape tells me he is the kind of person who *would* be paying attention to how many votes there are on someone, anyway

still hate 2442 because whyyy would you be assuming there was a doctor on the person you scumread that you shot but whatever

the discussion from the start of the day up to where fua ragequits makes me wanna bang my head against a wall

broke: skitter v fua is svs

i'd be voting him at that point probably - i especially don't like stuff like 2609
woke: baltar v malcolm is svs

(no, i don't actively scumread either of them atm, but this convo feels kinda odd at least from skimming... like, discussing things in a more detailed manner than it would be natural to? idk lole)

Eh I don't reckon I'd have any incentive to push mafia VP at the moment, they've come in for some heat but not enough for it to be beneficial for a prospective teammate to come in and put pressure on them.

my feelings about the productivity of this conversation remain the same, though i see now it was moreso kept up by malcolm rather than baltar...

malcolm, what are your thoughts on baltar actually? (link if you've talked about it in the next 20 pages.) did you actually learn anything productive from this conversation?

Datisi, what do you think of cape?

if i were there now, i'd be voting cape. 2610 feels like a "how DARE you question me on my speedy lolhammer you SCUMFUCK" shadethrowing when it's like, quite obvious why he should be getting questioned for it, the defensiveness feels unusual because like, obviously he's getting shit for it

and i think it's unlikely cape/malcolm are s/s because i have a hard time imagining two scumbuddies deciding to do this weird lowkey shade but not really push thing on the same person one right after the other

bottom of page 106, be back in a bit

[Mizzytastic]

The bent four is a special shape. Normally it works like the previous two where you can never kill it because there are two spaces inside to make an eye. However...

---

Official Votecount 2.6

tenebrousluminary (4): DeasVail, fireisredsir, MalcolmTucker, Save The Dragons

[E-5]

Scorpious (3): MathBlade, Cape90, Datisi
VP Baltar (3): Scorpious, tenebrousluminary, Nero Cain
Frogsterking (2): VP Baltar, Yeet
MalcolmTucker (1): April Ludgate
Enchant (1): skitter30
skitter30 (1): Enchant

Not Voting (2): Frogsterking, Eyes without a face

With 17 players alive, it takes 9 votes to achieve an elimination.

Day 2 will end in (expired on 2022-03-16 09:20:00).

[Nero Cain]

i wasn't around when Wu was hammered yesterday. WTF?