Mini 697: Prisoner's Dilemma Mafia {Game Over!}

[springlullaby]

confirm

[springlullaby]

Mod edit: My previous post said no game-related content in pregame phase.

[springlullaby]

Oh man, sorry mod missed that.

Do you have a copy of what I posted though, because I'll be loath to retype all that.

[springlullaby]

So yeah, I made this big post before on how to break the game, but it got deleted. I'll do the quick version here.

THE PLAN:

Elect arbitrarily* 2 players, X1 and Y1, to send to prison. They are to answer NO to the question. They are both to choose cop investigation the next day. They are to investigate each other.

If they find each other innocent, they are sent to prison again the next day. They again answer NO, and pick cop investigation. They then proceed to investigate another player of the town (both have to investigate the same person). This process is repeated until scum is found.

Upon positive investigation result, X1 and Y1 are sent to prison again. They are again to answer NO to the question, but this time they are pick to the daykill and target the found scum the following day. This process is repeated until the daykill goes through.

Provision 1, if one of X1-Y1 is found dead after a night in prison, a different couple of player, X2 and Y2, shall be elected to be sent to prison, they are to answer NO, investigate then daykill the surviving member of X1-Y1.

Provision 2, if a player investigated positive and daykilled by X1-Y1 cardflips town, a couple X2-Y2 shall be elected to investigate then and proceed accordingly.

Provision 3, if X and Y are in discord upon an investigation result, another couple of player are to be sent to prison to verify the result and act accordingly.



* or by popular vote of the towniest players.

Vulnerabilities to the plan:

# False positives: to avoid this MILLERS SHOULD CLAIM NOW
# Sanity of the cop: though it wouldn't make sense to twist investigation results in this game, this can be at least tested out before making any lethal commitment
# Godfather: my plan has no mean of detecting a GF, but hopefully we can weed out at least non-investigation immune scum before worrying about the GF
# Scum who can interfere with the answers given in Prison: if this ability exist, it would be worrying, but I think it is detectable enough with the double control system.
#Scum who are immune to daykill: well, detecting them first isn't half bad, we can worry about how to kill them after.

I think I haven't forgot anything. Your thoughts?

[springlullaby]

^^Yeah, I was going to ask just that.

Send: springlullaby

Send: CarnCarn

The only thing I see with the plan is that sometimes it might take multiple nights to figure someone out, and this leads to attrition of the town via night kills.

I wasn't aware there could be NK's.

[springlullaby]

Well obviously Nk's, and I think you guys are right about this, make a big part of my original plan impractical because it would takes too many night/day cycle.

Though I think the revised version by Iceman is good enough, it drops the security of double checking, but it still puts the investigation results ahead of the number of NK assuming 1 per night (more would be insane I think).

If we go with the plan, I would want prisoners to check each others.

If it is decided that they shouldn't check each other, I agree that it is town who should assign investigation target to them.

And I think that people who we sent to prison today have to pledge to answer No to the question.

If we decide to randomly sent people to prison, I want dice roll.


In the meantime I'm sending people I like.

Send:humscunter
Send:TonyMontana

Btw, there was no offense intended in my trying to break the setup, I think testing the setup is part of the appeal of this kind of games, and I would expect Machiavelli to humor people who does it.

[springlullaby]

I'm just going to throw this out there:

The original Prisoner's Dilemma was created by law enforcement to get criminals to confess (giving them a dominant strategy to choose Yes over No). Do you think that there might be some hidden penalty if we throw 2 scum into prison?
It would make sense in real life, since the method tries to get scum to confess. I'm thinking there is something the scum know about the setup of the interrogation that we don't, and that they really don't want to end up in prison together.

Your thoughts?

I'm not sure why the mod would hid a mechanism like that, because sending in two scums at the same time is pretty difficult a goal to achieve.

[springlullaby]

unsend:humscunter

send: RedCoyote

[springlullaby]

OP, why did you unsend Tony Montana?

[springlullaby]

RedCoyote, are you faking it?

Unsend:RedCoyote

[springlullaby]

Yeah I'm good with dice roll.

Original Roll String: 2d12

2 12-Sided Dice: (7, 12) = 19

[springlullaby]

Mod list

1.TonyMontana
2.Crazy
3.Albert B. Rampage
4.CarnCarn
5.humscunter
6.springlullaby
7.Seraphim
8.SlySly
9.orangepenguin
10.DragonsofSummer
11.icemanE
12.RedCoyote

Unsend all
Send: springlullaby
Send: orangepenguin

[springlullaby]

Then what is the sense of this game?

Even if we put scum in prison, it's at best the paper scissor thing because a scum who is sent to prison because of he is suspected has no motive to answer anything but yes.

[springlullaby]

I was expecting something more along the line of millers and godfather to jazz things up.

Exactly spring. I'm thinking theres a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff going on here. I will point again to my statement about trying to put two scum in prison together. I really don't think they would want that.

Yeah, maybe. But that's bastardly.


A couple of questions.
ABR, still want to go to prison?
OP, I'm interested in an answer to IcemanE's question too.

[springlullaby]

I'm refusing the allegations that my plan was to distract the town, I proposed it sincerely, and people adopted it at their liberty. This allegation is also quite weak because had I know what would happen, it wouldn't have been a smart move of me to propose a plan that was destined to fail and frame me the next day.

I agree that it is best to send people who we think are scummy from now on.

send:slysly
send:orangepenguin

humscunter and Carncarn are on my whitelist atm.

[springlullaby]

EBWOP

send:slysly
send: dragonofsummer

[springlullaby]

I'm sending Slysly and DOS because I find them scummy.

Slysly: dice incident, http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=175 bad vibe from that post

DOS: lurking

[springlullaby]

Iceman, you defended that plan, why am I the one to be suspected of it?

Orange Penguin, if you are town, why do you want to be sent to prison?

[springlullaby]

We send two suspected TOWNIES to jail every night - they both pick no until they come up with guilty reports - we continue to send those townies, and they pick the 50% daykills, then use them on the guilties. This, to me, seems more effective than sending scum to jail where our only chance is a gamble.

With that in mind I'm going to

unsend - everyone

while you guys digest.

PS - I would be willing to go to jail to test my theory.

Erh, you do realize that that is basically my plan and the one we put to use yesterday right? You do realize that you not a moment ago you were criticizing me for it right?

unsend all

[springlullaby]

Erh, you do realize that that is basically my plan and the one we put to use yesterday right? You do realize that you not a moment ago you were criticizing me for it right?

More or less, but my point is we should actively avoid sending scum if at all possible. So in that way it's quite different.

What do you make of the NK then?

[springlullaby]

You know what, I'm starting to think that ABR's plan for there not being a plan is the best way to do it.

I don't think any strategy is going to work, rather, I think this game is meant to be played spontaneously.

A clarification I'd like from the mod though.

Mod:

Rule 5 specify that while imprisoned, players can't be targeted by another.
Have you lied? Or are there exception to that rule?

[springlullaby]

Mod:
Rule 5 specify that while imprisoned, players can't be targeted by another.
Have you lied? Or are there exception to that rule?

[springlullaby]

This has been addressed before. If you're going to decide to play this game like ABR, at least actually read things before you pretend not to. No offense to ABR, of course. He does what he does.

[Special Rules

(add “unless specified otherwise” to end of each rule):

1. Each day lasts maximum 3 weeks.
2. Each player has two votes to vote on two different players to be sent to prison. Both votes cannot be used on same player. Players should use the tags Send: MM and Unsend: MM. I will reluctantly accept bolded votes and unvotes.
3. At end of each day, whichever two players has the most votes gets sent to prison for interrogation during the night. If a majority of votes is reached for two players before deadline, the day ends early. Tiebreaker is whoever reached a certain number of votes first.
4. While in prison, the two players will be asked the question: “Is the other player mafia?” The results are shown above.
5. While imprisoned, those players cannot target others and cannot be targeted by others.

In my understanding rule 5 specify that the 2 prisoners are night action immune.

If the mod confirms that there is no exception to that rule and that he hasn't lied, then the death of ###(forgot the name) last night is not the result from a night action.

[springlullaby]

Seraphim, why do you think N1 kill wasn't from Orange? I think KoC's reasoning make sense if he is telling the truth.

I will believe KoC once everyone has posted and no one has counterclaimed.

[springlullaby]

Seraphim, why do you think N1 kill wasn't from Orange?

I suppose it's possible that OP made the kill, but the flavor made it sound like someone had broken in to help OP out.

Still, unless something happens to change my mind, OP is most likely scum. It doesn't matter if he made the kill or if some sort of partner made the kill; someone wanted him out of jail.

Huh, then what do you make of KoC's bulletproof vest thing? Do you think he is lying?

[springlullaby]

The mafia was overpowered methink and the town's win was kinda random.

For what it's worth I would have said yes to DOS and Iceman have I been sent to prison.