Mini 693 - Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time Mafia (OVER)

[Pesco47]

Not by yours, by his one-liner of meta being important.

[iLord]

Meta is how he plays, not how he says he plays, or how often he's been scum.

[Natirasha]

Meta is how he plays, not how he says he plays, or how often he's been scum.

Ironically, I've been non-town more than town.

[iLord]

Ironically, I've been non-town more than town.

Yeah, but to using that to discern your alignment in a game would by Gambler's Fallacy.

[CoheedCambria09]

I was speculating because no one else had posted anything, and as such all I could do was speculate on something that I was thinking about. I really don't see how that makes me scum.

[iLord]

I was speculating because no one else had posted anything, and as such all I could do was speculate on something that I was thinking about. I really don't see how that makes me scum.

That's no reason to speculate at all. It's antitown, as I explained in a post a while back.

[CoheedCambria09]

Be that as it may, I don't see it as any reason to lynch me. To me someone who would lynch another person on that sort of case is even scummier.

[SilverPhoenix]

To me it seems that SilverPhoenix (SP) is rolefishing. First, he is looking which character SSK can be. But also, he is asking about roles (see post 23).
Also for what do we have to wait (post 40)? I don't understand what you're trying to say there.
FoS SilverPhoenix

Considering that SSK can't obviously talk, how is that rolefishing? It isn't rolefishing if the guy can't speak for himself, but it is speculation (much different than fishing). If he didn't like what I was saying, he would have voted me (as it does look like he can vote, just not be voted for). Post 23 was in reference to SSK, not anyone else, and Post 40 was me dropping the issue, as I realized we won't know anything until MafiaSSK

can

speak.

[iLord]

Be that as it may, I don't see it as any reason to lynch me. To me someone who would lynch another person on that sort of case is even scummier.

Well, generally, players that act antitown get lynched or under heavy suspicion.

[Natirasha]

I'm of the opinion that the mafia just have the ability to pull someone out of the game for a cycle or something and that every day someone else will be removed until we lynch the dude who does it.

[Tarhalindur]

"They say that you may find something new in dungeons that you have already finished." - A Gossip Stone

The Fifth Vote Count (aka the "A, Down, A, Right, Down, A" Vote Count):

Vote Count:

andersonw (0)
ZazieR (rep. letsbefriends) (2) - malthusis
Natirasha (1) - Natirasha
malthusis (0)
ooba (2) - SilverPhoenix, Pesco47
SilverPhoenix (0)
iLord (1) - ZONEACE
ZONEACE (2) - andersonw, iLord
CoheedCambria09 (1) - ZazieR (rep. letsbefriends)
Pesco47 (0)
raider8169 (2) - CoheedCambria09, ooba

Not Voting (1): raider8169

Votes required to lynch: 7

FoS Count:

andersonw (1) - ZONEACE
letsbefriends
Natirasha
malthusis
ooba
SilverPhoenix (1) - ZazieR (rep. letsbefriends)
iLord
ZONEACE
CoheedCambria09
Pesco47
raider8169

Current Deadline:

November 4, 2008 at ~6:00 P.M. (GMT -6)

First Mod Deadline Review:

October 28, 2008 at ~6:00 P.M. (GMT -6)

[ZazieR]

I think meta doesn't prove a thing. I normally ask many questions in the games I play. Does that make me scum in the one game where I didn't focus on asking questions, but on starting cases?
Meta isn't helpful when the player knows what he does when he's pro-town. And many players know what they do when they are pro-town and use this as well when they are anti-town.

Besides, iLord. I'm having the feeling that you base this on one game (your meta argument of CC09). I don't know how you call this in English, but if this is true then you're guilty of making a 'overhaaste generalisatie'. This means that you're concluding things from one experience (or something like that). And a 'overhaaste generalisatie' isn't counted as a reliable argument. It's in fact a 'drogreden'. I've learned you some things today .

Actually, the RV stage 'crap' as you call it pesco shouldn't be ignored. Not even before a flip. It's scummy behaviour. And every scummy behaviour should be used against that player, before and after a flip.

CC09, your speculation is very anti-town. You're discussing what could have happened with SSK. It's either SSK's role, a pro-town player's role or an anti-town plater's role. We can't do anything now if it's SSK's role so it's not helping town. If it's a pro-town role, we shouldn't talk about it at all. It only helps scum as they could see from the reactions of the players, whose role it could be. And if it's a scum role, they will just send us in the wrong direction. Tell me, how any of this is helping town.

Tell me how post 23 isn't rolefishing.

That confirms it. MafiaSSK really can't be vote or be voted for. What does everyone think about this? Maybe it is his role? Maybe someone did this to him?

How is asking if it's his role or if someone else did this to SSK not rolefishing? Then you're also making suggestions who SSK could be in a different post: Ganondorf, Link and Rauru. One of them is anti-town, while the others are pro-town. If SSK is one of these, you're helping scum as scum can now know who SSK is from these. Besides, you're not asking this to SSK, so that 'defend' of 'it isn't rolefishing when the mentioned player can't talk' is not correct. You're asking this to the town. Which could mean, that you're looking for the options 'somebody else did this to SSK' and that is rolefishing. Besides, if you want to call it speculation, then go ahead. I still think it's rolefishing, but both are either way anti-town.
Also you didn't give the answer to my question for what we have to wait.

I don't think there's any point in discussing who MafiaSSK could be, as I don't believe Tar would make it so obvious that he is Link/Ganon/other (although it's possible I'm wrong), and speculating on this wouldn't really help us figure out anything.

CoheedCambria and SilverPhoenix: What do you think about this?

As we can't even vote for him, you are right. We must wait until he can play.

Why do you want him to talk? Asking which character he is? If it was his role ability? If he perhaps knows who did this to him if it wasn't him?
I want to know why you're waiting for him to speak. In better words, as you're answer was

I realized we won't know anything until MafiaSSK can speak

what do you want to know from SSK?

For all those who are wondering about option 3 "The ability to remove one player for one round is in possesion of the scum" how they could direct us to the wrong guy, then look at post 84.

Malthusis, can you perhaps explain why your vote (if SSK hasn't to do anything with this) counts for 2?

[Pesco47]

The comments and content posted during RV is too messy to pick our way through, until we have a reference point to work from. A flip provides the point of irrefutable truth. I didn't say ignore it completely, put what you notice about it aside for later use.

[CoheedCambria09]

@ ZazieR: you do realize I wasn't the only one speculating, multiple people were, so don't just be looking at me, it was a "collective" speculation taking place.

[raider8169]

I think meta only works for patterns and if you should only get a nulltell from it. Nat's self vote being one of them, he always does it and voting him for such is just weak. Granted I did it in my first game with him but that is when I learned of his meta.

Scumtell meta's I do not like. I enjoy being able to play each game differently if I so choose, meta's do not allow for that.

[SilverPhoenix]

Why do you want him to talk? Asking which character he is? If it was his role ability? If he perhaps knows who did this to him if it wasn't him?

Because he can't talk, why would anyone know exactly what is role is? At this point, nobody that is able to talk can tell me

exactly

his role (scum can tell whether they are mafia or not, however), so what I am doing

is not rolefishing, merely speculation

. At the time, it was only conversation going on, so I speculated over his role, coming to the conclusion that we

can't

determine it without him talking.

That is very different than actually

wanting

him to talk about his role.

I could care less if he wanted to tell me his role, as I never asked him directly to state his role when he could speak. The only people at this time that could have offered me information about his role are scum, so I don't see how speculating now would have been a bad thing

in this case.

In other cases of speculation, it is correct to assume suspicion as it doesn't help the town giving the scum a scapegoat etc (what iLord said in Post 50).

[ZazieR]

CC09, I know that. There were 5 players who did so: You, SP, Raider, pesco and Malthusis. You and SP were the most active of those 5 and Malthusis also caught my attention. I don't think I'm only focusing on you so I was wondering why you wrote that comment.

SP

Rolefishing is when you try to get people to accidentally give clues about what their role is.

That confirms it. MafiaSSK really can't be vote or be voted for. What does everyone think about this?

Maybe it is his role? Maybe someone did this to him?

If you want to call this speculation, then we shall call it specualtion for you
Your 'speculating' about roles here. If the role is pro-town, then you're looking with these questions for a pro-town player and scum will help you with it. Nice of them, don't you think? If it's an anti-town role, I think that the scum will show you the path to the 'right person'.
If you haven't understand the sarcasm in this part, then I have a question for you. Why is it useful for town, to look into SSK's banishment?

Then this:

so I speculated over his role, coming to the conclusion that we can't determine it without him talking.

I'm getting the feeling that you want to know his role.

Speculating is never good. I already showed this in my previous post. Scum will help catching the role if the ability is from a pro-town player, and scum will send you in the 'right direction' if the ability is from scum.

Also, I absolutely hate it when players aren't answering questions. The first one is in my first post. See my view of andersonw for it.
But I am saying this right now due to SP. I asked you why do you want him to talk. After that I added some sarcastic comments. But eventually, I asked the question again what do you want to know from SSK. You even quoted one of these questions in your post and I can't find the answer at all.

[SilverPhoenix]

Why is it useful for town, to look into SSK's banishment? ...
I asked the question again what do you want to know from SSK

Because I was curious? I don't know, the game was going slowly, as both CC09 and I said. malthusis in Post 13 pointed out SSK, and since there was barely any discussion at that point, I did what I could, speculating that SSK could be a couple of roles due to the OoT lore.

I'm getting the feeling that you want to know his role.

...That is very different than actually wanting him to talk about his role.

I could care less if he wanted to tell me his role.

That is your answer. What do I want to know about SSK? Nothing now, as I deemed it futile as he can't talk. As I have said three times.

As we can't even vote for him, you are right. We must wait until he can play.

as I realized we won't know anything until MafiaSSK can speak.

coming to the conclusion that we can't determine it without him talking.

Speculating is never good. I already showed this in my previous post. Scum will help catching the role if the ability is from a pro-town player, and scum will send you in the 'right direction' if the ability is from scum.

Did you get what I said before? The only people that can drop hints at

this very moment in this game

only are scum. If anyone did accidentally drop a hint, they would be scum. Otherwise, I would agree that speculating about the game is a bad idea is both gives the scum ideas and possibly can confuse the town. Except possibly in a open/semi-open setup, of course. Nevertheless, just using "Speculating is scummy" as an argument without a game-by-game analysis is as bad as saying "his meta makes his current playing scummy" without a game-by-game analysis.

I feel like we keep repeating the same stuff back and forth.

[ooba]

Next player has only one post, so I want to know from ooba what he thinks about the banishment from SSK and what he thinks of all the guesses being made about it.

Obsoletely nothing. I haven't played LoZ:OoT and I do not think any kind of speculation, be it theme role based or what role SSK fits into mafia wise is wise right now...

[iLord]

asdfasdf

I think meta doesn't prove a thing. I normally ask many questions in the games I play. Does that make me scum in the one game where I didn't focus on asking questions, but on starting cases?
Meta isn't helpful when the player knows what he does when he's pro-town. And many players know what they do when they are pro-town and use this as well when they are anti-town.

Besides, iLord. I'm having the feeling that you base this on one game (your meta argument of CC09). I don't know how you call this in English, but if this is true then you're guilty of making a 'overhaaste generalisatie'. This means that you're concluding things from one experience (or something like that). And a 'overhaaste generalisatie' isn't counted as a reliable argument. It's in fact a 'drogreden'. I've learned you some things today .

Meta itself doesn't prove anything. Meta defines scumtells. In your case, no that would not be a scumtell because asking questions isn't antitown. The converse is not always true - something antitown is not always indictive of scum alignment.

You're right that one experience is not enough. If I can piece together some extra time, I'll look at some more of Coheed's games.

@ ZazieR: you do realize I wasn't the only one speculating, multiple people were, so don't just be looking at me, it was a "collective" speculation taking place.

"But everyone else did it!"

That's scummy - I really need to look at your games, but for now:

Vote: Coheed

I think meta only works for patterns and if you should only get a nulltell from it. Nat's self vote being one of them, he always does it and voting him for such is just weak. Granted I did it in my first game with him but that is when I learned of his meta.

Scumtell meta's I do not like. I enjoy being able to play each game differently if I so choose, meta's do not allow for that.

Scumtell metas are basically the opposite of nulltells. If you do something antitown that you don't usually do as town, then that's a scum tell. You can still play differently, as long as you don't play antitown differently.

Looking into Coheed - perhaps another post soon.

[raider8169]

Scumtell metas are basically the opposite of nulltells. If you do something antitown that you don't usually do as town, then that's a scum tell. You can still play differently, as long as you don't play antitown differently.

I understand what you are saying and I can see how it would give scum away but is that really how you want to play your games? That would make the game not as much fun for me atleast. To each his own I guess

Mod

I will be gone until Friday, sorry about the short notice

[iLord]

I understand what you are saying and I can see how it would give scum away but is that really how you want to play your games? That would make the game not as much fun for me atleast. To each his own I guess

It's really the "correct" way to play.

Often, we are all lazy and skip this step.

[Tarhalindur]

"Oh, it's the fairy boy again! I heard you found my dad! How did you like the castle? Did you see the Princess? Hee hee! Dad came home in a hurry after you found him. Hee hee! Oh yeah, I have to introduce you to my friend, fairy boy! She's this horse. Her name is Epona. Isn't she cute?." - Malon

Raider's V/LA is noted.

In other news: *cough* Tar games need unvotes. *cought* This means you iLord. *cough* - Tar

The Sixth Vote Count (aka the "Up, Left, Right, Up, Left, Right" Vote Count):

Vote Count:

andersonw (0)
ZazieR (rep. letsbefriends) (2) - malthusis
Natirasha (1) - Natirasha
malthusis (0)
ooba (2) - SilverPhoenix, Pesco47
SilverPhoenix (0)
iLord (1) - ZONEACE
ZONEACE (2) - andersonw, iLord
CoheedCambria09 (1) - ZazieR (rep. letsbefriends)
Pesco47 (0)
raider8169 (2) - CoheedCambria09, ooba

Not Voting (1): raider8169

Votes required to lynch: 7

FoS Count:

andersonw (1) - ZONEACE
letsbefriends
Natirasha
malthusis
ooba
SilverPhoenix (1) - ZazieR (rep. letsbefriends)
iLord
ZONEACE
CoheedCambria09
Pesco47
raider8169

Current Deadline:

November 4, 2008 at ~6:00 P.M. (GMT -6)

First Mod Deadline Review:

October 28, 2008 at ~6:00 P.M. (GMT -6)

[ZazieR]

SP. You were speculating about a role. We don't know if this role is from SSK, from a pro-town player or from an anti-town player. And you think it's justified, to speculate about somebody's role when the game is going slowly? Due to this, you could give hints to the scum. Tell me, how that is good for town.
And is that

Because I was curious?

serious intended?

I realized we won't know anything until MafiaSSK can speak.

I ask you once again. What do you want to know from/regarding SSK. I can't see why you would say this, without wanting to know something.

And again

I don't think there's any point in discussing who MafiaSSK could be, as I don't believe Tar would make it so obvious that he is Link/Ganon/other (although it's possible I'm wrong), and speculating on this wouldn't really help us figure out anything.

As we can't even vote for him, you are right. We must wait until he can play.

What do you mean with the 'we must wait'?

Last, you said that speculation could be bad as shown by iLord. He made that comment regarding CC09. But you were doing the same thing. Why is it wrong in CC09's case, but good in your case for town?

[iLord]

In other news: *cough* Tar games need unvotes. *cought* This means you iLord. *cough* - Tar

Really sorry - I keep forgetting.

Unvote, Vote CoheedCambrian09