Mini 670-Kirby Mafia OVER!

[Save The Dragons]

...if he's equally likely to be scum or town, why don't you just use a random number generator to tell you who the scum are?

It shouldn't be written off, but it shouldn't be (pardon my play on the English language) written on, either.

[Vi]

My point is you guys are very close, and it seems to me like you're not checking each other, but that could be due to your role, so meh.

For a while, I haven't checked him. 'No reason to, or so I thought.

I'm asking this for a reason (so if it seems obvious, then yeah, it probably is), but, how did you deal with Natirasha before this point?

I haven't; I've basically let him do whatever since in my mind he was cleared.

I'm curious about the jump to Mafia Role Cop. Granted, it was very hard to tell that Natirasha was actually claiming, but I think yesterday Ku_F asked who Natirasha's partner was, so it's not unreasonable to assume she believed then.

M. Role Cop was the only way I could think of to justify 1) believing Natirasha's claim in the first place and 2) outing confirmed Masons. Until I reread, I didn't remember anyone paying Natirasha's Kirby+Mason claim D1 any mind other than "good grief how anti-Town can one player get". Shortly put, I was being reactionary - with a first post of the day like that, I wouldn't say it's justified but I hope it's somewhat understandable.

[Kmd4390]

I didn't say it's equally likely. I'm just saying that I see your side of it.

[DraketheFake]

So, you no longer think Vi and Natirasha are scummy? Does the fact that they're not really confirmed townies put them back on the list or do you think that there's enough to suggest they're not scum?

And who on that list do you think is suspicious?

Of course I still find Natirasha's actions scummy, and I didn't like Vi's posts way back when I said I didn't, but 1. It's too early to lynch one of a set of claimed masons, especially when [set-up jockeying alert] one of them claimed a big presumably pro-town role and wasn't counterclaimed, and 2. I think it's ridiculous the amount of hemming and hawing I've seen going on about claimed masons early in games recently. I think Vi's behavior at the deadline was very pro-town, and since he's vouching for Nat at the moment I see no reason to go on a witchhunt even if Nat hasn't seemed to be acting in the town's best interests.

I've been meaning to do some heavy analysis on several players, including DragonsofSummer and Kmd, and I might add you in there when I get around to it. Capricious and Microphone_Kirby have both seemed various degrees of townie to me so far, but I'll need to look over them again as well.

I do however have work in 6 minutes. Hopefully when I get back I'll be able to make a post before bed.

[Save The Dragons]

I think Vi's behavior at the deadline was very pro-town, and since he's vouching for Nat at the moment I see no reason to go on a witchhunt even if Nat hasn't seemed to be acting in the town's best interests.

Right...because Vi can't be pro-town and wrong, or anti-town.

I do agree it's probably not a good idea to go on a witch hunt, but I also think discounting it based off of Vi's play is a bad idea.

@ KMD: I'm still not sure how you can condemn him just because his behavior could be scummy, but it could also be described as not scummy. Pardon me for saying equally likely, you're right, that's not what you said.

I guess you're sure enough that he's scum, because you're voting for him.

[Kmd4390]

I guess you're sure enough that he's scum, because you're voting for him.

No, I'm not sure at all. I just think he is scummier than anyone else right now. My vote isn't a "let's lynch him now!!" vote. It's an "I like to have my vote on the player who I think is the scummiest" vote.

[Vi]

Save The Dragons, what's your motive for pressing Kmd on his vote?

[Save The Dragons]

...any particular reason I shouldn't?

And I apologize again, my wording was not correct. I did not meant to imply you thought he was scum, just that he was scummier than others.

The problem is that if Player X does activity A, and someone says "I can see a townie do activity A, but I could also see scum do activity A, so I'll vote player X" it seems like a misuse of logic.

I basically wanted to know if there was more to it than, "he's done newbish activities" to catch him, because I can't tell the difference in his play between scum newb and town newb, and I'm trying to figure out if KMD can and if so, if he can relay that information to me.

So, Vi, are you suspicious of me yet?

[Vi]

...any particular reason I shouldn't?

It's only one vote, and one that Mic_K could most likely shrug off himself.

So, Vi, are you suspicious of me yet?

I have been for a while now. With that said, I don't think I have enough information to substantiate any accusation worth making. (And no, I'm not banking on OMGUS )
So let me ask this. What is your opinion of Jebus, as of right now? Separately, who are you most suspicious of?

To be fair, I do agree with your response to DtF in 404. As long as you give me a fair shake, it'll go both ways.

----

Where is everyone?

[Natirasha]

I'm here, just bored.

[Microphone_Kirby]

Microphone_Kirby - I can't think of anything at the moment, although I remember having something to say to you--

Take your time... surely, you'll remember someday.

[Kmd4390]

The problem is that if Player X does activity A, and someone says "I can see a townie do activity A, but I could also see scum do activity A, so I'll vote player X" it seems like a misuse of logic.

No, it was more like I called out player X for doing activites A,B,C..... You said A,B,C..... can be seen as just being a newer player, and I said I can see what you mean, but it's still scummy.

[Save The Dragons]

Actually, it can all be seen as a newer player. That doesn't mean it should be written off though. He could be just a new player, but he could also be new scum.

Yes, but here's my problem.

I don't know the thought process that went behind "these actions could be new player or new scum, but I'm going to call them scum." Yeah, you can vote someone you suspect of being scum, but how did you rule out (if you did) the possibility that he's just a newer player?

Again, I'm not trying to defend newbieness as a townie tell, but the problem is every newer player that gets lynched in a game for a multitude of scummy behavior keeps turning up town. It's ridiculous, and it makes me second guess the possibility of newer players as scum, which is bad for me, I know. It's why I'm hesitant to suspect Jebus, and it's why I'm a little worried about this vote.

[Kmd4390]

I saw it as scummy first. THEN you said it could be a newer player. I agreed with you that it COULD, but kept my suspicion. I haven't ruled out him being a newer player. I haven't ruled out anything. He is one of my suspicions, and my vote makes that clear.

[Kmd4390]

StD, let me ask you this. What are some things, that from a newer player, you would consider scumtells? I want to make sure you aren't excusing players from scumtells just because they are new.

[Microphone_Kirby]

I want to say Mic because I had so much against him, but

it

kind of looks like genuine (no offense mic) bad town play. Still suspicious of Drake. I'd like to see Cap post more. I had suspicions there, but I did a re-read and didn't see much. Mic and Jebus both had interesting reactions to Ku_F's joke, particularly Mic. I think we need to remember that a mason could be scum, but neither is today's lynch.

I saw

it

as scummy first. THEN you said

it

could be a newer player. I agreed with you that

it

COULD, but kept my suspicion. I haven't ruled out him being a newer player. I haven't ruled out anything. He is one of my suspicions, and my vote makes that clear.

It, it , it... that's all I'm hearing from you. You never told anyone today what "it" is... so, what is "it" that make me scum in your eyes???

... Was "it" really my reaction to Kuffie's "stalker thing" earlier?

[Kmd4390]

It, it , it... that's all I'm hearing from you. You never told anyone today what "it" is... so, what is "it" that make me scum in your eyes???

... Was "it" really my reaction to Kuffie's "stalker thing" earlier?

So I haven't said anything specific against you? Tell me what you want me to elaborate on. Here's most of my suspicions that I have posted and consider specific:

Microphone_Kirby

-not sure how you thought StD was directing the question about an FoS being serious at you. That makes it look like you are trying to be sure to answer everything. It's like you are trying to play the "good townie". If it was just honest confusion, ignore that comment. Looking back again, I see that StD never used a name in that post, so I can see where confusion might come from.

Post 97. After being asked if you have suspicions that aren't parroted, you simply call out lurkers and Nat's trap. Not much new there. I don't expect to see a lurker lynch on day 1, and Nat has been discussed plenty.

REALLY don't like the "fear" post. You aren't contributing nearly as much as you are posting. Also, you shouldn't "fear" anything about what you say if you are town. State your thoughts, and make sure we know them. It can be useful if you die and flip town. If you are scum, then yes, be afraid.

You say that flimsy reasons are all we have to go by. This isn't true. Good discussion is enough to make a reasonable lynch. In the same post, you say that a vanilla townie death does nothing. That's not true. You can gain quite a bit by reading someone's posts knowing that they were town and being genuine.

Not liking the part about sacraficing vanilla's at all. We don't want to sacrafice anyone. Yes, a mislynch of a vanilla townie is better than a mislynch of a power role, but still, we shouldn't be looking to "sacrafice" anyone town-aligned. And in LYLO, you don't want a mislynch at all. Never sacrafice a vanilla in LYLO because then you lose, unless you are scum.

Current Read=Scum

If you lay your thoughts out, and then get killed, we know what you were thinking and can use it to catch scum.
If you are afraid to lay your thoughts out, and get killed, we have no way of gaining info.
We can also get a better read on you while you are alive. If you are town, you should have no problem with that.

... Or blatantly ignore them, especially if they only echo another person's thoughts, but you have a point.

even if you echo what people have said, it's good to know where you stand on everything.

That's true to an extent, but what if your read is wrong and what if I can't sway you otherwise no matter what I post?

If so, it would be pointless arguing.

It's not pointless because we know what your opinions are whether we agree or not.

It was obviously a joke. I seriously doubt that Ku_F is a messed up stalker like that. How could you possibly take that seriously?

Mic, you can't POSSIBLY think that Ku_F was actually at Nat's house, stalking him, and reading his PMs. How is this not clearly a joke?

[Vi]

So let me ask this.

What is your opinion of Jebus, as of right now?

Separately, who are you most suspicious of?

*tosses Cutter at STD*

Again, I'm not trying to defend newbieness as a townie tell, but the problem is every newer player that gets lynched in a game for a multitude of scummy behavior keeps turning up town.

I'm sure I can find a counterexample of a scummy newbie that should have been lynched. I dislike this generalization very much.

If Jebus were not a new player, would your opinion change?

[Natirasha]

Mod: Can we prod some people?

Anyways, I don't believe in newbiness as a tell.

[Jebus]

Agreement with above post. And again, I'm not a new mafia player. I'm just not quite used to this site yet.

FoS: STD for 412.
Confirm vote on Vi, too.

[Vi]

ITT, ultimate evil is represented by the only fitting soundtrack - bebop jazz.

'Wonder how hard we'll beg for THIS deadline extension <_<

---

Confirm vote on Vi, too.

Um... three obvious problems here.
1) Why.
2) You're currently voting for Ku_F. 'Remember? You thought she was more suspicious than Mic_K was willing to believe from that whole joke at the beginning of the day, and look at the flack he got from that.
3) Awesome, dodging tons of discussion. I wish I could do that and expect to get away with it. *takes notes*

Incidentally, I never bothered to stop voting for KüF. 'Should change that.

Unvote: Ku_F
Vote: Jebus

[Save The Dragons]

Vote: Jebus

Sorry, but you're going to have to do a little better than that.

Giving arguments that seem good but actually have weak or misleading backing is a scumtell in my opinion, and I'm trying to determine whether that's happening here, which helps drives the inquisition (the other factor of course being the weak exclusion of newbiness problem that I have).

StD, let me ask you this. What are some things, that from a newer player, you would consider scumtells? I want to make sure you aren't excusing players from scumtells just because they are new.

I would hold a newer player accountable to any scumtell I'd hold a more experienced player to...but I guess that if I suspect that these tells could be due to new play and are not likely to be scumtells, I try to steer away.

I guess my problem is a lot of your accusations can only be made to a newer player.

The same could be said about different playstyles, not just newer players.

I'm sure I can find a counterexample of a scummy newbie that should have been lynched. I dislike this generalization very much.

If Jebus were not a new player, would your opinion change?

I'm not really a fan of generalizations either, but I think people need to be more wary of what they're doing. Despite what it may look like I'm doing, the take home message is to make sure that the person that's up on the block is scum, and that there isn't some other reason for their behavior. If their behavior is the result of the fact that they don't know how to play the game, then we're not doing ourselves a favor by shouting "he's scum! Lynch him!" I see players (myself included) latch onto prey like a dog and clamp their jaws down until the person is hanging. Yes, my emotional side is creeping in here, and in a game of logic, it's not really helpful, but I'm not one to just sit back and watch as our scumdars get false positives for scum just because the player's new or from a different site or is having a bad day or any number of possible alterations from the norm.

And I'm sorry, Vi, I thought I answered this, but I am a little wary of DTF, I'm not a huge fan of DoS's pretty much lack of usefulness, the masons are on the backburner, and I'm not particularly happy with Jebus's play.

[Natirasha]

Unvote, Vote: Jebus

.

I, for one, highly doubt that my mason partner is scum, and will defend VoVvy to my death.

[Vi]

The "Vi has indeed read Rule 14" Unofficial Vote Count:

Jebus (5) - Microphone_Kirby, DragonsofSummer, Vi, Save The Dragons, Natirasha

Ku_F (1) - Jebus
Microphone_Kirby (1) - Kmd4390

Not Voting: Capricious, DraketheFake, Ku_F

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. This means Jebus is at L-1.

Where is Capricious? <.<

[Microphone_Kirby]

So I haven't said anything specific against you? Tell me what you want me to elaborate on. Here's most of my suspicions that I have posted and consider specific:

It was obviously a joke. I seriously doubt that Ku_F is a messed up stalker like that. How could you possibly take that seriously?

Mic, you can't POSSIBLY think that Ku_F was actually at Nat's house, stalking him, and reading his PMs. How is this not clearly a joke?

Elaborate on these two posts a little more.
Specifically, tell me how these two posts helped you to put your vote on me. The way I see it, these two followed your vote.