Babylon 5 Mafia: Severed Dreams - Over

[Tarhalindur]

Moderator Note: Your moderator made an error when sending Darox his role PM (due to sending an older version of the PM). I apologize for the confusion. - Tar

[Natirasha]

Moderator Note: Your moderator made an error when sending Darox his role PM (due to sending an older version of the PM). I apologize for the confusion. - Tar

lol.

[Kinetic]

Name them.

One is who needs to be eliminated for a racial victory, and the other is that every player has a racial win condition.

By the way, Minarbi don't need to kill Narn to win.

I'm confused here by this assumption. It sounds like you're saying you're Minbari and that you don't have to kill Narn. However this is in direct conflict with Nat, who also says he's Minbari and says he does need to kill Narn...

I'm also confused by your first point. Do you mean that I have the WCs wrong or that there is something fundamentally wrong about racial WCs in general that I don't have right. If I tie this to your second line, it seems like you're telling me specifically that I have the wrong WCs and there for that's why my assumptions are wrong.

As for every character has a racial WC. Yes, I am making that assumption, but I'm making based on several other deductions. Are you saying you don't have a racial WC? I've yet to hear anybody dispute that point. I'm pretty sure if someone didn't have a race, they would have brought that up by now...

And if your point is that maybe the scum don't have a race. Well that works out BETTER for a race claim...

I'm sorry, but I'm dizzy trying to follow your logic.

[Kinetic]

Moderator Note: Your moderator made an error when sending Darox his role PM (due to sending an older version of the PM). I apologize for the confusion. - Tar

ROFL ROFL ROFL

Now, say what Darox?

[Kinetic]

Also Nat, I'd like to ask you, how is your WC worded? What is the exact term they refer to your enemies as (Shadows)

It is worded as Shadow Operatives.

Ok... I'm willing to entertain the possibility that your character is possibly some sort of neutral. I'm not sure exactly how I like it, and there is a strong possibility I'm still going to prefer your lynch (and consequently hp[leaves] as well), but I'm still going to think about it before I revote.

UNVOTE

For some reason Tar didn't see this I think last time because it still had me voting you...

Anyway, the problem I'm starting to find is that if AOL is the "town", your own WC Nat (and hp) interfere with that slightly. It all depends on the neutrals...

Nat, earlier you stated you knew for a fact that there were at least two survivors. How are you sure of that?

[armlx]

As people die we'll learn their race. What will happen when Centauri find that, its true that the town is losing, but if they find ONE MORE NARN they can win? What will happen when any race does that? What if this boils down to a race war? Keeping the races secret, that is what this will become. Doing a race claim when there is an imbalance of power is what this will become. While the races are all balanced is the ONLY time a race claim can have any effect. Once there is a death, everything goes out the window unless we stop it, here and now.

You assume every race knows exactly how many members of each race, including their own, there are. Without this knowledge, the races can't possibly figure out at exactly what point they gain value on focusing on their race WC.

Armlx, what do you think will happen if we will race claim now?

Nothing during the day. But at night I expect a lot of actions to be swayed by claimed races, especially potential vig kills like Nat said.

Kinetic, what makes you assume Nat needs to kill the Shadow Ops and knows the wording from that, as opposed to anything else? Hell, the info was revealed in the thread.

[Natirasha]

I don't. It just says Survivors in the plural, so I took an educated guess.

[Kinetic]

As people die we'll learn their race. What will happen when Centauri find that, its true that the town is losing, but if they find ONE MORE NARN they can win? What will happen when any race does that? What if this boils down to a race war? Keeping the races secret, that is what this will become. Doing a race claim when there is an imbalance of power is what this will become. While the races are all balanced is the ONLY time a race claim can have any effect. Once there is a death, everything goes out the window unless we stop it, here and now.

You assume every race knows exactly how many members of each race, including their own, there are. Without this knowledge, the races can't possibly figure out at exactly what point they gain value on focusing on their race WC.

Did I say that? No, I didn't. You're assuming I'm assuming something I'm not assuming... There are other ways to skin a cat.

Armlx, what do you think will happen if we will race claim now?

Nothing during the day. But at night I expect a lot of actions to be swayed by claimed races, especially potential vig kills like Nat said.

That is the beauty of a thing.

Kinetic, what makes you assume Nat needs to kill the Shadow Ops and knows the wording from that, as opposed to anything else? Hell, the info was revealed in the thread.

Nat is trying to help the town now. What i was wondering is if Nat's WC directly stated Shadows as opposed to Shadow Operatives. You see, if it mentioned Shadows, and hp's mentioned Vorlons and not Operatives then perhaps something I was mulling over may have fit. I... can't exactly explain everything yet, but it was important.

I don't. It just says Survivors in the plural, so I took an educated guess.

That was what I figured. I just wanted to confirm.

[Tarhalindur]

Kinetic is receiving an Official Warning for Jackassery (trying to use the structure of the role PM to gain an advantage) due to his questions about the exact wording of win conditions. He's extremely lucky that I'm not modkilling him on the spot. - Tar

[armlx]

Nat is trying to help the town now. What i was wondering is if Nat's WC directly stated Shadows as opposed to Shadow Operatives. You see, if it mentioned Shadows, and hp's mentioned Vorlons and not Operatives then perhaps something I was mulling over may have fit. I... can't exactly explain everything yet, but it was important.

Fair.

Did I say that? No, I didn't. You're assuming I'm assuming something I'm not assuming... There are other ways to skin a cat.

I assumed that was one of your assumptions. Otherwise, how would a race know when another race was at low numbers, or theirs was at high numbers, until the late game.

That is the beauty of a thing.

I realize the game is Deep South and there isn't really a night, but all actions resolving at the end of the day is the exact same thing really.

[Kinetic]

Did I say that? No, I didn't. You're assuming I'm assuming something I'm not assuming... There are other ways to skin a cat.

I assumed that was one of your assumptions. Otherwise, how would a race know when another race was at low numbers, or theirs was at high numbers, until the late game.

They wouldn't need to know exact. They'd have to reach the same conclusion I have, which frankly, isn't very hard to reach if you know where to look.

I have several contingencies planed for depending on how exactly things fall out in the race claim. I believe I have prepared for virtually every outcome, otherwise I wouldn't push for this. Part of my big reveal is contingent on certain things falling into place, but by no means if things don't happen exactly as I hope does that mean it ruins my plan. If things go like I hope, I figure we'll have a 70-80% victory rate. If everything goes wrong, it drops to about 55-60%. Not perfect odds, but enough to take the gamble and the pitfalls still put us in a better position then we are now, especially considering it is day 1.

That is the beauty of a thing.

I realize the game is Deep South and there isn't really a night, but all actions resolving at the end of the day is the exact same thing really.

My comment actually doesn't take anything Deep South into account. As far as I'm concerned it is still pretty much a Day/Night game, except that there is no time to prepare during night, everything is just... quicker. Its easier just to think of it as day/night with no planning after a lynch for night actions.

[armlx]

They wouldn't need to know exact. They'd have to reach the same conclusion I have, which frankly, isn't very hard to reach if you know where to look.

I realize what your conclusion is. Its possible its just wrong though.

If you are that sure though and have hidden info, I'm down with a claim. Vote to see who starts, then popcorn from there though.

[Kinetic]

They wouldn't need to know exact. They'd have to reach the same conclusion I have, which frankly, isn't very hard to reach if you know where to look.

I realize what your conclusion is. Its possible its just wrong though.

If you are that sure though and have hidden info, I'm down with a claim. Vote to see who starts, then popcorn from there though.

I'd prefer completely random. Popcorn can be effected by scum. By using the forum dice I can draw a random list.

[armlx]

Right, you don't want there to be traces of scum influence?

Or do you feel that will be more of an issue then an info source?

[pacman281292]

I think that we must try to ignore races; we just need to fulfill ONE OF THE WINNING CONDITIONS. Town/scum is enough; let's play it as a normal Mafia game. We most hunt for scum, not keep discussing about WCs.

[Kinetic]

Right, you don't want there to be traces of scum influence?

Or do you feel that will be more of an issue then an info source?

Interesting... I didn't think of it that way...

Hmm, you might have something there...

I think I like your idea better .

[Kinetic]

I think that we must try to ignore races; we just need to fulfill ONE OF THE WINNING CONDITIONS. Town/scum is enough; let's play it as a normal Mafia game. We most hunt for scum, not keep discussing about WCs.

-.- Scum?

[forbiddanlight]

If we are doing this, I vote

armlx

to start

[RandomGem]

...Are we doing the claim?
I think it's really risky, but... eh, I don't really know.

I'd rather have popcorn claiming than dice claiming.

[armlx]

I vote Cybele starts. Previous reasons about scumminess apply.

[forbiddanlight]

Oh, wait, I messed up. Sorry, for some reason I thought we wanted scummy people to claim last O.o...my apologies. Switch my vote to

Cybele

[Kinetic]

I am fine with Cybele. I'd say Nat but he's already claimed and all... lol

So yea, I'll vote Cybele as well then.

[RandomGem]

Okay... so we are what, waiting for 12 people to okay the claim?
BTW, I never thought Cybele was scummy, but that is because I never think anyone is >.> And I also somehow didn't notice the Deep South thing until someone said it... not that it really mattered to me.

[pacman281292]

I think that we must try to ignore races; we just need to fulfill ONE OF THE WINNING CONDITIONS. Town/scum is enough; let's play it as a normal Mafia game. We most hunt for scum, not keep discussing about WCs.

-.- Scum?

-.- why?
I think that I don't care about who claims first. I'll vote myself to claim first, but still think that this will be a (little) waste of time. Why? because we are lossing time to scumhunt.

[Kinetic]

I think that we must try to ignore races; we just need to fulfill ONE OF THE WINNING CONDITIONS. Town/scum is enough; let's play it as a normal Mafia game. We most hunt for scum, not keep discussing about WCs.

-.- Scum?

-.- why?
I think that I don't care about who claims first. I'll vote myself to claim first, but still think that this will be a (little) waste of time. Why? because we are lossing time to scumhunt.

Please continue to scum hunt. I'm trying to make your job easier and all you're doing is making mine harder. I never said stop looking for scum. If you haven't gained a whole ton of information thanks to all the discussion this has brought up then you haven't been paying attention.

Hell, if you've gleaned even half of what I have you'll be very well off indeed. And that's even before the claim.

Role Call so far

Support Plan, unconditionally

6
Kinetic

Cybele

Mafia SSK
Theinternet
veerus
RandomGem (Counteracts Nat's doesn't count vote with another vote that frankly... doesn't count.)
armlx ,

Cybele

Support Plan, with Kinetic Full Reveal

1
forbiddenlight

Cybele

Do not support Plan

8
dybeck
Empking
Nat (doesn't matter since he already claimed...)
malthusis
populartajo
pacman281292
Mana_Ku
Darox

Undecided

6
VisMaior
Cybele
DrippingGoofball
cr3t1n (rep. Blitzer)
[hp]leaves
farside22 (rep. Tovarish)

So far the Do Not claims out number the ones who believe its a good idea. I've posed some ideas to those who've opposed the claim and I also expect Darox to change his tune...

Anyway, we still need a few people to make their intentions known and some more discussion it looks like before this is ready to go. Italics are for that person's "vote" to go first in the claim game. Currently we're exactly equal, 7 for and 8 against with 6 currently not voting.

As I'm reading FL's vote as only for if I claim, and against if I don't, thus in order for me to avoid complete claim and the race claim to continue the

Unconditional

votes must outnumber the against votes with counting the full claim as "against" votes, if the full claim votes are required to gain a majority I will full claim, even if the majority of town do not ask me to. I believe that's more than fair.