Babylon 5 Mafia: Severed Dreams - Over

[Kinetic]

You know that trying to mass claim faction names (not WC's) is practically mass genocide? When WC's are saying that you have to kill a faction, this is going to be an utter vigfest.

FoS: people pushing this idea

How many vigs are there mal?

[malthusis]

malthusis wrote:
You know that trying to mass claim faction names (not WC's) is practically mass genocide? When WC's are saying that you have to kill a faction, this is going to be an utter vigfest. FoS: people pushing this idea


How many vigs are there mal?

All I know is that there is probably quite a few factions that want to kill each other so revealing ones faction (besides town) probably means someone would like you dead.

[Tarhalindur]

"Who am I? I am Susan Ivanova. Commander. Daughter of Andrei and Sophie Ivanov. I am the right hand of vengeance, and the boot that is going to kick your sorry ass all the way back to Earth, sweetheart! I am Death Incarnate, and the last living thing that you are ever going to see.

God

sent me." - Susan Ivanova

I'll be nice. Since everyone who would need a prod posted since I promised to hand out prods... no prods today. - Tar

The Eleventh Vote Count (aka the "Any Means Necessary" Vote Count):

Vote Count:

VisMaior (1) - cr3t1n (rep. Blitzer)
Empking (0)
malthusis (0)
Kinetic (rep. MBPikamon) (8) - Darox (rep. seraphim), Natirasha, forbiddanlight, VisMaior, veerus, farside22 (rep. Tovarish), DrippingGoofball, TheInternet
Cybele (4) - MafiaSSK, pacman281292, dybeck (rep. soaperguy29), armlx
MafiaSSK (1) - Mana_Ku
armlx (0)
Darox (rep. seraphim) (0)
forbiddanlight (0)
populartajo (0)
Mana_Ku (0)
Natirasha (1) - Kinetic (rep. MBPikamon)
veerus (0)
The Internet (0)
DrippingGoofball (0)
cr3t1n (rep. Blitzer) (2) - RandomGem, malthusis
pacman281292 (0)
RandomGem (0)
hp [leaves] (1) - Empking
dybeck (rep. soaperguy29) (0)
farside22 (rep. Tovarish) (0)

Not Voting (3): Cybele, populartajo, hp [leaves]

Votes required to lynch: 12

FoS Count:

VisMaior
Empking (1) - veerus
malthusis (1) - armlx
Kinetic (rep. MBPikamon) (2) - Cybele, The Internet
Cybele (3) - Kinetic (rep. MBPikamon), Natirasha, veerus
MafiaSSK (1) - malthusis
armlx (1) - VisMaior
Darox (rep. seraphim) (1) - hp [leaves]
forbiddanlight (3) - Empking, Kinetic, veerus
populartajo
Mana_Ku
Natirasha
veerus (1) - Empking
The Internet
DrippingGoofball
cr3t1n (rep. Blitzer) (1) - malthusis
pacman281292
RandomGem (1) - pacman281292
hp [leaves] (1) - Kinetic
soaperguy21
Tovarish
people pushing this idea (1) - malthusis

Current Deadline:

October 24, 2008 at ~6:00 P.M. (GMT -6)

Second Mod Deadline Review:

October 17, 2008 at ~6:00 P.M. (GMT -6)

[Kinetic]

malthusis wrote:
You know that trying to mass claim faction names (not WC's) is practically mass genocide? When WC's are saying that you have to kill a faction, this is going to be an utter vigfest. FoS: people pushing this idea


How many vigs are there mal?

All I know is that there is probably quite a few factions that want to kill each other so revealing ones faction (besides town) probably means someone would like you dead.

Really? Is there someone in particular that might want you dead? Say town? Maybe Nat? This is mafia, someone always wants you dead. Town want mafia dead, Mafia want town dead, etc etc. You seem to be thinking something quite specific here though, would you care to elaborate on that?

[Kinetic]

ROFL... I have to do this.

FOS: Tarhalindur

for allowing FOSs of concepts, and I can only expect people not in the game. Thus:

FOS: Mastermindofsin

for leaving MS

FOS: Glork

for not being in this game because I know he could figure out the thing that is bugging me about the people on my wagon.

and

FOS: Lucky Charms (The Cereal)

for being magically delicious, because magic is scummy.

[The Internet]

Vote: Kinetic

reasons:
1. Pushed for massclaim WAY TOO EARLY
2. Avoids logical arguments
3. Absolutely refuses to reveal information he alledges is vital to the town and the knowledge of the setup unless a mass claim happens.
4. Attempting to start wagon on Nat
5. Possible Bussing.

1. Brought up an idea that I wanted to discuss, no one wanted to discuss it, all that happen was attacks at me instead of discussing the idea.

2. Explain to me when someone has tried to argue logic with me and not just thinly veiled attacked me and not discussed the ideas.

3. I refuse to be bullied into changing my mind on an issue. I stated my idea, and instead of discussing it, you just kept saying DO IT DO IT DO IT. I don't respond to that.

4. Because I think he's scum. You are joining, wagoning, etc. That isn't scummy, that is playing a game.

5. Wow. Drop it. It was a mistaken use of a word.

1. Still, as the starter of the discussion you proposed mass claim.
2. When I asked for your faction name claim, but you instead strawmanned it into WC claim. (You have since made your points clearer, I still disagree, but now it is just a difference of opinion)
3. As I have said before, you were unwilling to compromise for the town's benefit
4. I guess from my perspective Nat seems less scummy than from yours, making you seem like scum trying to lynch an innocent.
5. Nothing when alone, but it is part of a pattern.

[Kinetic]

Vote: Kinetic

reasons:
1. Pushed for massclaim WAY TOO EARLY
2. Avoids logical arguments
3. Absolutely refuses to reveal information he alledges is vital to the town and the knowledge of the setup unless a mass claim happens.
4. Attempting to start wagon on Nat
5. Possible Bussing.

1. Brought up an idea that I wanted to discuss, no one wanted to discuss it, all that happen was attacks at me instead of discussing the idea.

2. Explain to me when someone has tried to argue logic with me and not just thinly veiled attacked me and not discussed the ideas.

3. I refuse to be bullied into changing my mind on an issue. I stated my idea, and instead of discussing it, you just kept saying DO IT DO IT DO IT. I don't respond to that.

4. Because I think he's scum. You are joining, wagoning, etc. That isn't scummy, that is playing a game.

5. Wow. Drop it. It was a mistaken use of a word.

1. Still, as the starter of the discussion you proposed mass claim.
2. When I asked for your faction name claim, but you instead strawmanned it into WC claim. (You have since made your points clearer, I still disagree, but now it is just a difference of opinion)
3. As I have said before, you were unwilling to compromise for the town's benefit
4. I guess from my perspective Nat seems less scummy than from yours, making you seem like scum trying to lynch an innocent.
5. Nothing when alone, but it is part of a pattern.

1. And? Every game I've been in where a Mass Claim was used the town won. It certainly depends on the game, but if a mass claim is going to be effective to the town it needs to be done day 1. There are cases I have supported and it has worked (Mafia 68, I believe), and cases when I felt it was a very bad idea and I was right (Freaktown, which was won for the town because of me). I think it might be a good idea here, but I'm really not positive. I'd like to discuss it, but so far discussion has been very frowned upon in this game, with anyone arguing anything being scummified immediately.

And even if I didn't bring it up, eventually someone should have. Discussing our options is a townie move. I've always felt open discussion about a topic should never be taboo and people who say "You're scum just for proposing that idea" are much more scummy than someone with the courage to ask the question. And that sort of mind set, where you constantly make people afraid to post their opinions and asking questions, is a very anti-town mindset. That isn't the way I work.

2. If you now understand my points and agree that while unclear my original argument had merit (no matter if you agree with it or not), then my intent was not to straw man your argument, and you mistakenly believed it was. Thus the whole thing was a miscommunication. They happen, they're frustrating, but they happen. Now that we're on the same page though you might understand my own frustration as well.

3. Compromise? Compromise requires give and take. It requires open discussion and debate. It requires negotiation. Without all of those you cannot even approach compromise. I'm open to compromise, if a compromise can be achieved, but neither you, nor anyone else, have proposed a compromise. All that you've proposed is I give you everything and you give me nothing. I find those terms unacceptable and they haven't changed so neither has my decision.

4. Granted. But I think he is scummy, I've made my points, none of which have been adequately disputed. This is day one though, so no argument is going to be perfect, but I also have stated my vote isn't to lynch him. My vote currently is to apply pressure to have him reveal more than the little breadcrumbs that he did. He has dodged my questions by simply ignoring them, and I've continued to try and force him to at least acknowledge them and not just OMGUS me.

No one else is asking him the tough questions, how am I to believe suddenly someone will if I relent?

5. *rolls eyes* Humans try and find patterns in everything and patterns in nothing. Sometimes there is a pattern, and most of the time we're delusional. I'm guilty of this myself, but I'm starting to get suspicious of how many people are using that comment and that comment alone justify their vote of me. I'm not saying you're one of them, but any serious vote should have something more than that.

Additionally, for that comment to mean anything would require you to believe Nat is scum. You obviously don't, by your own admission in point 4. So therefore in order to truly believe point 4, you must dismiss point 5 or vice-versa. You can't have it both ways.

FOS: Theinternet

for a logical contradiction.

[Empking]

Okay thoughts and more thoughts.

Empking: Random vote is random vote whether by die or just picking a person just because what is the difference? What is with the vote hope from page one and then page 2 with no reason?
]

Fully random votes or self votes take away from the town's information. Only scum want to do that. I changed my vote when I learnt it was Nat's meta and therefore not a tell.

[hp [leaves]]

5. *rolls eyes* Humans try and find patterns in everything and patterns in nothing. Sometimes there is a pattern, and most of the time we're delusional.

Actually, since humankind can't do things randomly, there is always a pattern in our actions; even if we're trying to break the pattern.

At this point I'm also against a mass role/win condition/alignment claim as it seems a bit pointless to me in a theme game. As in you could just google for a good/neutral role from the series and claim it.

[Mana_Ku]

I'm also against a mass claim, however the claim about the win conditions will be interesting when someone is almost lynched.
Everyone can claim a alignment faction or a racial faction as I think that they are known. But the win condition is different. I'm sure that the win condition of scum is different than that of the normal citizen.
But the problem is that the win condition of a power role can be different as well. So we should be careful with this.

I think it's better to wait with the win condition claim until there are less players.

[dybeck]

It goes without saying... but if we massclaim... scum will pick their favorite massclaim from those offered and use it for their own...

[armlx]

It goes without saying... but if we massclaim... scum will pick their favorite massclaim from those offered and use it for their own...

This.

[Kinetic]

It goes without saying... but if we massclaim... scum will pick their favorite mass claim from those offered and use it for their own...

I'll admit, when I first threw the idea out there I didn't quite think this through, but since then this though had come up to me. To this point I don't exactly have a response that will sate the idea. Additionally any ideas I have at this point are just conjecture.

I was hoping that while we were talking about it someone might have come forward, maybe with some more information about the set-up if they had it, but alas, either no one knows, they are lurking, or just aren't reading anything and are just skimming posts (most likely)...

[armlx]

So... Kinetic, you are admitting to fishing?

[Kinetic]

fishing?

[armlx]

I was hoping that while we were talking about it someone might have come forward, maybe with some more information about the set-up if they had it, but alas, either no one knows, they are lurking, or just aren't reading anything and are just skimming posts (most likely)...

This. You were hoping your mass claim got someone to reveal role information in an unprompted manner.

[Kinetic]

No, that isn't what I said or meant. For that to be true I would have had to have realized the flaw that was mentioned previous to my proposal of the claims. The fact alone that I didn't shows that wasn't a motive for the claim.

If you don't believe that, then I also present this: I was thinking more of general information. Particularly setting information. This is a very complicated game, and I don't know about you, but I don't have a lot to work with, so I'm trying to use what I do know to figure out the game, but its like trying to complete a puzzle and missing some pieces. I want those pieces.

Plus, truth be told, if I'd have realized that flaw in the claim idea before I said anything I'd have never brought it up in the first place. After I did realize it I didn't want to stop the loads of discussion and debate *cough* (that last sentence was sarcasm if you didn't catch that). I was hoping though to learn more and possibly figure out a solution to the issue though before I personally brought up the flaw. I haven't yet though. Don't know enough yet, but I think the answer lies in races... If I could just figure it out.

[Kinetic]

EBWOP: Obviously the quote is exactly what I said, what I was referring to in my first post was that what I said (in my opinion) wasn't an admission to using the claim as a form of fishing.

[The Internet]

Vote: Kinetic

reasons:
1. Pushed for massclaim WAY TOO EARLY
2. Avoids logical arguments
3. Absolutely refuses to reveal information he alledges is vital to the town and the knowledge of the setup unless a mass claim happens.
4. Attempting to start wagon on Nat
5. Possible Bussing.

1. Brought up an idea that I wanted to discuss, no one wanted to discuss it, all that happen was attacks at me instead of discussing the idea.

2. Explain to me when someone has tried to argue logic with me and not just thinly veiled attacked me and not discussed the ideas.

3. I refuse to be bullied into changing my mind on an issue. I stated my idea, and instead of discussing it, you just kept saying DO IT DO IT DO IT. I don't respond to that.

4. Because I think he's scum. You are joining, wagoning, etc. That isn't scummy, that is playing a game.

5. Wow. Drop it. It was a mistaken use of a word.

1. Still, as the starter of the discussion you proposed mass claim.
2. When I asked for your faction name claim, but you instead strawmanned it into WC claim. (You have since made your points clearer, I still disagree, but now it is just a difference of opinion)
3. As I have said before, you were unwilling to compromise for the town's benefit
4. I guess from my perspective Nat seems less scummy than from yours, making you seem like scum trying to lynch an innocent.
5. Nothing when alone, but it is part of a pattern.

1. And? Every game I've been in where a Mass Claim was used the town won. It certainly depends on the game, but if a mass claim is going to be effective to the town it needs to be done day 1. There are cases I have supported and it has worked (Mafia 68, I believe), and cases when I felt it was a very bad idea and I was right (Freaktown, which was won for the town because of me). I think it might be a good idea here, but I'm really not positive. I'd like to discuss it, but so far discussion has been very frowned upon in this game, with anyone arguing anything being scummified immediately.

And even if I didn't bring it up, eventually someone should have. Discussing our options is a townie move. I've always felt open discussion about a topic should never be taboo and people who say "You're scum just for proposing that idea" are much more scummy than someone with the courage to ask the question. And that sort of mind set, where you constantly make people afraid to post their opinions and asking questions, is a very anti-town mindset. That isn't the way I work.

2. If you now understand my points and agree that while unclear my original argument had merit (no matter if you agree with it or not), then my intent was not to straw man your argument, and you mistakenly believed it was. Thus the whole thing was a miscommunication. They happen, they're frustrating, but they happen. Now that we're on the same page though you might understand my own frustration as well.

3. Compromise? Compromise requires give and take. It requires open discussion and debate. It requires negotiation. Without all of those you cannot even approach compromise. I'm open to compromise, if a compromise can be achieved, but neither you, nor anyone else, have proposed a compromise. All that you've proposed is I give you everything and you give me nothing. I find those terms unacceptable and they haven't changed so neither has my decision.

4. Granted. But I think he is scummy, I've made my points, none of which have been adequately disputed. This is day one though, so no argument is going to be perfect, but I also have stated my vote isn't to lynch him. My vote currently is to apply pressure to have him reveal more than the little breadcrumbs that he did. He has dodged my questions by simply ignoring them, and I've continued to try and force him to at least acknowledge them and not just OMGUS me.

No one else is asking him the tough questions, how am I to believe suddenly someone will if I relent?

5. *rolls eyes* Humans try and find patterns in everything and patterns in nothing. Sometimes there is a pattern, and most of the time we're delusional. I'm guilty of this myself, but I'm starting to get suspicious of how many people are using that comment and that comment alone justify their vote of me. I'm not saying you're one of them, but any serious vote should have something more than that.

Additionally, for that comment to mean anything would require you to believe Nat is scum. You obviously don't, by your own admission in point 4. So therefore in order to truly believe point 4, you must dismiss point 5 or vice-versa. You can't have it both ways.

FOS: Theinternet

for a logical contradiction.

Unvote

I see your points, and I apologize. I'll keep my eye on you, though.

[The Internet]

Ghetto edit: for clarification, I'm still against mass claim.

[Kinetic]

Ghetto edit: for clarification, I'm still against mass claim.

I really don't think I'm for it right now either. I do still think it could work, but until I figure a way beyond the flaw that has been presented I don't feel comfortable pushing it.

[MafiaSSK]

I'm up for WC mass claim.

[Kinetic]

SSK where is my pbpanalysis?

[malthusis]

I'm up for WC mass claim.

Why? Even that has the same pretty much the same flaws as the race claim.

Also

FOS Malthusis

Should be obvious.

What's the FoS for? Not agreeing to mass claim?

[veerus]

A mass claim right now is silly. It's been confirmed that there are at least five sides and, I'm guessing, probably at least twice as many WCs.