Babylon 5 Mafia: Severed Dreams - Over

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, what does the town gain from the win condition claim?

Hmm, interesting question... I haven't really thought deeply about it to be quite honest. My first throw at the idea was pretty much out of left field, and I didn't really think it through. That being said, I really didn't think anyone would really push for it (the claim that is). It's a very oddball move, and I kind of only half said it to get some conversation on the topic...

However, I want to try and answer your question with a little thought.

I think the main benefit the town would gain, if any, is figuring out who the town really is... And what I mean there is this: If everyone has two win conditions, or maybe even more than that, I don't know, they might not be sure exactly which one is the true town.

What if all of the "second" win conditions for the town are really just red herrings. What if they're part of a ploy so that the people who DO have two win conditions, ones that aren't pro-town, can hide and maybe even throw one of them out to distract us from a more insidious second win condition.

This is, in truth, one of the main reasons I suspect Nat. I was trying to think like Tar (tough, I know, especially since I've heard about his mind screw games. Scary Stuff). Anyway, I do have credentials of being able to out think Tar (granted, I had to kill him in that game to win, because if I left his ass alive I'm sure town would have lost... but anyway). But the conclusion I came to is that is this:

IF the scum also have two win conditions, in NO WAY can one of those win conditions be pro-town. Why? Betrayal. If a scummer has a scum win condition and a town win condition, then he can just tell the town who his scum buddies are, lynch them, and win with the town.

THUS if a scum has another win condition, that win condition must either be neutral, survivor, or scum related. I was thinking this when I was preparing to enter the game (I wanted to join from the beginning, because I was intrigued, but the game closed up before I came back to the site). When Nat basically jumped up and said "Hey, I have a 'neutral' second win condition", ... well, yea, you can put 2 and 2 together now if you want to. But that is why I wanted him to reveal his win conditions, because I wanted to see if I could get him to slip without any help from anyone else...

Granted: Town can also have neutral or survivor win conditions as well, so my thought process isn't full proof. But it is what I'm thinking.

Mind you, after reading the posts intervening between my vote yesterday, and my vote today, Kinetic's post is alarming.

Would you care to elaborate?

[hp [leaves]]

posting to avoid being prodded

will make a real post when i understand all the posts

[Empking]

In addition, as Natirasha pointed out earlier, based on my role PM I can also deduce that there are at least 5 alignments present in the game. Which also implies that my enemies likely have similar win conditions to mine only with roles obviously reversed. Kinetic's and Empking's failure to understand this and attempts to force Nat to explain it makes me think that their role's win condition is, at the very least, anti-me and quite likely anti-town.

FOS: Empking

[/b]

Saying their's five win conditions while still keeping his optiomns open.

FoS: Veerus

[armlx]

DGB, thoughts on the whole Win Condition issue?

[The Internet]

I'll repeat Kinetic, what is the official name of the "town", according to you PM.

[forbiddanlight]

IF the scum also have two win conditions, in NO WAY can one of those win conditions be pro-town. Why? Betrayal. If a scummer has a scum win condition and a town win condition, then he can just tell the town who his scum buddies are, lynch them, and win with the town.

Lakitu in Mushroom Kingdom.

THUS if a scum has another win condition, that win condition must either be neutral, survivor, or scum related. I was thinking this when I was preparing to enter the game (I wanted to join from the beginning, because I was intrigued, but the game closed up before I came back to the site). When Nat basically jumped up and said "Hey, I have a 'neutral' second win condition", ... well, yea, you can put 2 and 2 together now if you want to. But that is why I wanted him to reveal his win conditions, because I wanted to see if I could get him to slip without any help from anyone else...

Nat has information. I'd like to pull as much as we can out of him and discard him if we decide he's a scum neutral. You however, have not shown any promise of information at all, which is intriguing. Hence, why I vote you between these candidates.

at the very least, anti-me and quite likely anti-town. FOS: Empking

So, did anyone ELSE notice this in veerus' post?

FoS Veerus

[Natirasha]

Yes, Kinetic, what is thee actual name of the town, Kinetic?

[armlx]

Lakitu in Mushroom Kingdom.

That role was utter bull shit and over powered.

[malthusis]

I totally agree with Nat on answering the town question. But to prove to me that you're not town Nat, what faction is mentioned in the townie WC?

[veerus]

at the very least, anti-me and quite likely anti-town. FOS: Empking

So, did anyone ELSE notice this in veerus' post?

FoS Veerus

I don't understand your problem with that statement but I'm guessing your lack of knowledge in the theme is the reason for that. Since this IS a

theme

game that the mod didn't require background knowledge for, I'll try to explain.

In my win conditions, there are four opposing factions mentioned (something that I'm sure is true for most, if not all, players). As I actually know the story of Babylon 5, one of the win conditions specifies factions that I wouldn't exactly call scum, thus the reason for the differentiation.

[Kinetic]

I'll repeat Kinetic, what is the official name of the "town", according to you PM.

I read your message, and I repeat my original response:

First, everyone must agree that this claim will go through to everyone. If someone tries to dodge it, we need a consensus that we will lynch them.

Second, I'll generate (or someone else can if you think I have some magical powers) using the boards dice rollers, a completely random order in which claims will happen. That way no one can challenge that the claims were done unfairly.

This may not have been a direct response to your question, but it fits. I'm not giving you a freebie unless we have a consensus. I'm confident, but since you're opposed to such a claim, does that mean you're not confident?

Yes, Kinetic, what is thee actual name of the town, Kinetic?

And why would I say it so that you could copy me scum?

[forbiddanlight]

I don't understand your problem with that statement but I'm guessing your lack of knowledge in the theme is the reason for that. Since this IS a theme game that the mod didn't require background knowledge for, I'll try to explain.

In my win conditions, there are four opposing factions mentioned (something that I'm sure is true for most, if not all, players). As I actually know the story of Babylon 5, one of the win conditions specifies factions that I wouldn't exactly call scum, thus the reason for the differentiation.

Hmmph...I still don't like it. Given all the hubaloo about survivors a neutral win condition scares me, and everyone would claim their other condition is town. However, I can't fault that most everyone likely has a neutral win condition.

UnFoS

[RandomGem]

From what I gather in the PM, the factions are "scum" and "town" (trying to destroy Babylon 5, or trying to save it), and races, where if only your race is left, you win...

[pacman281292]

posting to avoid being prodded

will make a real post when i understand all the posts

Same here. I'm really confused (and a little busy).

[The Internet]

I'll repeat Kinetic, what is the official name of the "town", according to you PM.

I read your message, and I repeat my original response:

First, everyone must agree that this claim will go through to everyone. If someone tries to dodge it, we need a consensus that we will lynch them.

Second, I'll generate (or someone else can if you think I have some magical powers) using the boards dice rollers, a completely random order in which claims will happen. That way no one can challenge that the claims were done unfairly.

This may not have been a direct response to your question, but it fits. I'm not giving you a freebie unless we have a consensus. I'm confident, but since you're opposed to such a claim, does that mean you're not confident?

Yes, Kinetic, what is thee actual name of the town, Kinetic?

And why would I say it so that you could copy me scum?

Kinetic, I'm not asking for your win condition, just the name of the town faction, according to you. Don't sidestep the question, I'm already suspicious of you.

[The Internet]

Ghetto Edit: Kinetic, several other people have already asked for you to answer the question of the name of town, according to you.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, I'm not asking for your win condition, just the name of the town faction, according to you. Don't sidestep the question, I'm already suspicious of you.

I'm sorry, but what? The name of the town and my win conditions are obviously the same things. So you asking for one is you asking for the other. And I've already said my peace on this matter.

[Kinetic]

Lakitu in Mushroom Kingdom.

Didn't know about that role, but I read up on it, and I suppose the possibility exists that some kind of role similar to that one exists in this game. That being said, that role also have the addition of a way the character switches sides, effectively his win condition changed as well and also he had a survivor condition.

I still stand by that there cannot be a character who has two win conditions (both active at all times) that are both town and scum. Unless... there is no scum in the classical sense, no informed minority... I suppose if you take that out of the equation the game no longer is "mafia" and there really is no town. I don't think this is true, I'm sure there is someone who actually knows what is going on (or at least a hell of a lot more than I do), but... that would be... interesting...

THUS if a scum has another win condition, that win condition must either be neutral, survivor, or scum related. I was thinking this when I was preparing to enter the game (I wanted to join from the beginning, because I was intrigued, but the game closed up before I came back to the site). When Nat basically jumped up and said "Hey, I have a 'neutral' second win condition", ... well, yea, you can put 2 and 2 together now if you want to. But that is why I wanted him to reveal his win conditions, because I wanted to see if I could get him to slip without any help from anyone else...

Nat has information. I'd like to pull as much as we can out of him and discard him if we decide he's a scum neutral. You however, have not shown any promise of information at all, which is intriguing. Hence, why I vote you between these candidates.[/quote]

I have information, but all my information is conjecture and guesses. I'm trying to be as open as possible, and get all of my ideas on the floor so that people can look over them and maybe we could gain consensus. The fact that Nat OBVIOUSLY has more information, based on his role, should be a reason to be pressuring him into giving us that information, like I am trying to do.

Your assertion doesn't make sense to me. It's like saying Nat has apples, I know Nat has apples, but Kinetic doesn't seem to have any apples, so I'm going to pressure Kinetic until he gives me apples... An over simplification to be sure, but that's what I understand of your argument.

[Natirasha]

And why would I say it so that you could copy me scum?

You pose this question to me, while it holds far more truer to you.

However, I will pose this question to the town.

How many of you know the "town" faction of this one, or how many of you actually believe there is one.

[forbiddanlight]

Actually, it's more like, I don't think you are going to give any apples if you have them, and you are more likely to be scum. As someone else said, Nat is least likely to be town, but you are most likely to be scum. I honestly think you are the correct lynch. What I'm trying to figure out is how to steal those apples from Nat as well though...and part of this is intuition that could be completely wrong...but I also have a feeling nat gets more information as the game goes on. I don't know why, but I get that feel.

That said, if a Nat wagon DOES sprout up, I'm willing to support it since that may be the easiest way to get those "apples". Also, Cybele wagon=good as well.

[Kinetic]

Actually, it's more like, I don't think you are going to give any apples if you have them,

I'm a business major, I never give apples for free. If you're willing to pay for them with something of equal value, I am willing to barter.



The rest of your post, for the most part though, isn't exactly something I can argue against. Opinions and Intuition aren't exactly concrete basis to push for a lynch, but then again, it is Day 1. *shrug* Anyway, I do have some Apples, and I'm pretty sure anyone who reads my posts carefully will eventually see me hint to who I think the scum faction is. If they realize that, they can also determine who I think the town faction is as well. That is, if they have the same win condition that I'm referring to as well. *shrug*

[Tarhalindur]

"Your ships are very impressive in the air, or in space, but at this moment, they are on the ground."
"Right . They're on the ground. But they can sense an approaching ship miles away. So what're you gonna do, Mollari, huh? Blow up the island?"
"Actually... now that you mention it..." - Londo Mollari and Morden

Farside22 replaces Tovarish and dybeck replaces soaperguy29, each effective as soon as the replacement posts in the thread. Please welcome them to the game!

I'll deal with prods tomorrow (Internet is being slow). Populartajo , at the very least, will be on his second prod. - Tar

The Tenth Vote Count (aka the "Survivors" Vote Count):

Vote Count:

VisMaior (1) - cr3t1n (rep. Blitzer)
Empking (0)
malthusis (0)
Kinetic (rep. MBPikamon) (5) - Darox (rep. seraphim), Natirasha, forbiddanlight, VisMaior, veerus
Cybele (3) - MafiaSSK, pacman281292, DrippingGoofball
MafiaSSK (1) - Mana_Ku
armlx (0)
Darox (rep. seraphim) (0)
forbiddanlight (0)
populartajo (0)
Mana_Ku (0)
Natirasha (1) - Kinetic (rep. MBPikamon)
veerus (0)
The Internet (0)
DrippingGoofball (0)
cr3t1n (rep. Blitzer) (2) - RandomGem, malthusis
pacman281292 (0)
RandomGem (0)
hp [leaves] (1) - Empking
dybeck (rep. soaperguy29) (0)
farside22 (rep. Tovarish) (0)

Not Voting (7): Cybele, armlx, populartajo, TheInternet, hp [leaves], dybeck (rep. soaperguy29), farside22 (rep. Tovarish)

Votes required to lynch: 12

FoS Count:

VisMaior
Empking (1) - veerus
malthusis
Kinetic (rep. MBPikamon) (2) - Cybele, The Internet
Cybele (3) - Kinetic (rep. MBPikamon), Natirasha, veerus
MafiaSSK (1) - malthusis
armlx (1) - VisMaior
Darox (rep. seraphim) (1) - hp [leaves]
forbiddanlight (3) - Empking, Kinetic, veerus
populartajo
Mana_Ku
Natirasha
veerus (1) - Empking
The Internet
DrippingGoofball
cr3t1n (rep. Blitzer) (1) - malthusis
pacman281292
RandomGem (1) - pacman281292
hp [leaves] (1) - Kinetic
soaperguy21
Tovarish

Current Deadline:

October 24, 2008 at ~6:00 P.M. (GMT -6)

Second Mod Deadline Review:

October 17, 2008 at ~6:00 P.M. (GMT -6)

[Darox]

Hey new people.

Did you know Kinetic is a very good wagon and that I strongly endorse it?

[dybeck]

Reading.

[Kinetic]

Hey new people.

Did you know Kinetic is a very good wagon and that I strongly endorse it?

This coming from a guy who's only evidence can best be explained by the reliance of someone else to be scum.

Congrats on lurking -.-;;;.