Babylon 5 Mafia: Severed Dreams - Over

[Natirasha]

Unvote, Vote: Kinetic

Fos: Cybelle

So...let me understand your logic, Kinetic...your voting me because...wait...your voting me because...your voting me because I want to win?

[forbiddanlight]

Mind explaining why you think its a null tell?

Well, first, it's a tar game. That's all you really need

But further, what alignment is a survivor hunter to you? pro town? pro scum? Third party? I don't know about you, but I could find cause to put it in any of these three.

There was nothing magical about it. I gave my reasons for my vote, explained as much as I felt I needed to, and voted him. Cybele immediately following like he's attached to my ass is more on him than on me.

As for your obvious attempts to link the two of us together, maybe you should do a little more research. In my first serious post of this game (123) I noted the very thing everyone is voting Cybele for and FOSed him for it. 7 posts before Arlex voted for Cybele, which was his first vote.

Hey listen. You and Cybele aren't connected, nor did I ever say you are. I in fact, intimated that you were both survivors. So, let's see what the survivor role is. A third party that tries to last to endgame, wins with any faction as long as they are alive. I highly doubt you two are connected. Don't try to make it look like I am connecting you. That's a strawman, k thx.

Oh, and bussing doesn't look good. Why is Nat as a survivor hunter auto scumming him again?

Ah, what a perfect example of Ad hominem without being aggressive (which it seems many people on this forum incorrectly assume is needed for an Ad hominem attack).

You either disagree with my conclusions or otherwise don't believe they are right, but instead of arguing against them you make an attack against me (he's most likely a survivor, thus he must be wrong not because the argument is wrong, but because he's a survivor.)

Sorry, that doesn't fly, and for trying to tie me to Cybele without doing a little research which would show that very unlikely, and using a fallacious argument to try and discredit me further I FOS:forbiddenlight.

Speaking of fallacies, you engaged in one of the most incredible strawmans I have ever seen. Good show on the scumminess, survivor man. I'm not connecting you and cybele. Your reasons for voting nat are his role. Yeah...NO. Get evidence next time, k thx, and try to avoid giving your opponents stances you can actually beat when they have you pinned.

Unvote, vote Kinetic

So...let me understand your logic, Kinetic...your voting me because...wait...your voting me because...your voting me because I want to win?

Well, to be fair, this is bullshit too. We vote scum who just want to win, do we not? I reject this line of logic. But, this does imply third party. However, given the two win conditions, you could be aligned elsewhere as well...confusing :S.

FoS: Nat

[armlx]

So...let me understand your logic, Kinetic...your voting me because...wait...your voting me because...your voting me because I want to win?

We vote scum who just want to win, do we not?

This. Killing people who are actually survivors is a little short of optimal for town, not quite mislynches but worse then scum lynching.

[MafiaSSK]

I also believe the survivor-hunter is a null tell. This is becuase it could make a good Town role.

[Kinetic]

Mind explaining why you think its a null tell?

Well, first, it's a tar game. That's all you really need

But further, what alignment is a survivor hunter to you? pro town? pro scum? Third party? I don't know about you, but I could find cause to put it in any of these three.

First off, you're making guesses on exactly what Nat's role is. Meanwhile, I know I don't know, and I have suspicions, so I want him to clarify them. The fact that you ALSO feel the SAME means you should ALSO be asking the SAME questions I am and not giving him a free pass!

There was nothing magical about it. I gave my reasons for my vote, explained as much as I felt I needed to, and voted him. Cybele immediately following like he's attached to my ass is more on him than on me.

As for your obvious attempts to link the two of us together, maybe you should do a little more research. In my first serious post of this game (123) I noted the very thing everyone is voting Cybele for and FOSed him for it. 7 posts before Arlex voted for Cybele, which was his first vote.

Hey listen. You and Cybele aren't connected, nor did I ever say you are. I in fact, intimated that you were both survivors. So, let's see what the survivor role is. A third party that tries to last to endgame, wins with any faction as long as they are alive. I highly doubt you two are connected. Don't try to make it look like I am connecting you. That's a strawman, k thx.

Previously:

...notice that Cybele and Kinetic...

...

Unvote, vote Cybele
HoS Kinetic

You are connecting us together, both implicitly and explicitly. Just because you're linking us together as survivors and not mafia does not mean you did not EXPLICITLY argue a link. Even in your rebuttal you used the SAME link to try and prove you didn't make a link. In fact you VOTED Cybele even though by your own admission you don't think that he's scum! If you DIDN'T think he was scum then why did you vote for him? All you have is a possibility that he MIGHT be a survivor based on an argument I made and that he (albeit way too quickly) agreed with.

I in fact, intimated that you were both survivors.

There is no strawman in my argument.

End of conversation. I'm not going to fight semantics here. You said it, if you didn't mean that, then say that you didn't mean to, but don't turn it around on me because what you said (and continue to say) is very clear.

Oh, and bussing doesn't look good. Why is Nat as a survivor hunter auto scumming him again?

For someone who cries strawman so quickly you don't realize when you make the same argument. Anyway, I stated my intent with my vote is not to push for his lynch at this time but to pressure him into revealing more about his role because the little tidbit he did give was so vague that he COULD be scum or he COULD be town, but without more information its just hugely bad for town.

Ah, what a perfect example of Ad hominem without being aggressive (which it seems many people on this forum incorrectly assume is needed for an Ad hominem attack).

You either disagree with my conclusions or otherwise don't believe they are right, but instead of arguing against them you make an attack against me (he's most likely a survivor, thus he must be wrong not because the argument is wrong, but because he's a survivor.)

Sorry, that doesn't fly, and for trying to tie me to Cybele without doing a little research which would show that very unlikely, and using a fallacious argument to try and discredit me further I FOS:forbiddenlight.

Speaking of fallacies, you engaged in one of the most incredible strawmans I have ever seen.

If you want to have a logical fallacy-off, I can play that game too, but it's just a distraction. I show you how your argument is a fallacy, you show me how mine could be a fallacy, blah blah blah. In the meantime the scum win. I'm going to end it here and now before it becomes a distraction.

But, this does imply third party. However, given the two win conditions, you could be aligned elsewhere as well...confusing :S.

FoS: Nat

This is EXACTLY what I'm saying. If his ONLY alignment was survivor killer, that might be just a null tell. But he isn't acting like that at all! By his OWN ADMISSION!

@Nat: I think I have a reason for you saying what you did, you probably have a win condition that says kill all survivors.

Yes. And it seems extensively easier than my other win condition, ...

Why has no one else picked up on that besides me? I'm glad that you can be objective enough to step back and realize he's acting scummy, now you need to actually put some pressure on him so that he'll stop dodging the questions and start providing some answers.

[Tarhalindur]

"I spy with my little eye…something beginning with 'B'."
"Boxes."
"I spy with my little eye something beginning with 'M'."
"More boxes."
"Two in a row."
"And that's when I shot him, Your Honor."
"I spy with my little eye something beginning with 'E'."
"I-I give up."
"Oh come on."
"This better not be what I–"
"Even MORE boxes!" - Marcus Cole and Stephen Franklin

Still searching for a replacement for soaperguy29.

Tovarish has 24 hours to respond to his prod. - Tar

The Eighth Vote Count (aka the "Deathwalker" Vote Count):

Vote Count:

VisMaior (2) - cr3t1n (rep. Blitzer), armlx
Empking (0)
malthusis (0)
Kinetic (rep. MBPikamon) (3) - Darox (rep. seraphim), Natirasha, forbiddanlight
Cybele (3) - armlx, MafiaSSK, pacman281292
MafiaSSK (1) - Mana_Ku
armlx (0)
Darox (rep. seraphim) (0)
forbiddanlight (0)
populartajo (0)
Mana_Ku (0)
Natirasha (2) - Kinetic (rep. MBPikamon), Cybele
veerus (1) - DrippingGoofball
The Internet (1) - Tovarish
DrippingGoofball (1) - The Internet
cr3t1n (rep. Blitzer) (2) - RandomGem, malthusis
pacman281292 (0)
RandomGem (0)
hp [leaves] (2) - Empking, VisMaior
soaperguy21 (0)
Tovarish (1) - veerus

Not Voting (3): populartajo, hp [leaves], soaperguy29

Votes required to lynch: 12

FoS Count:

VisMaior
Empking (1) - forbiddanlight
malthusis
Kinetic (rep. MBPikamon)
Cybele (2) - Kinetic (rep. MBPikamon), Natirasha
MafiaSSK (1) - malthusis
armlx (1) - VisMaior
Darox (rep. seraphim) (1) - hp [leaves]
forbiddanlight (2) - Empking, Kinetic
populartajo (1) - veerus
Mana_Ku
Natirasha (1) - forbiddanlight
veerus
The Internet (1) - veerus
DrippingGoofball
cr3t1n (rep. Blitzer) (1) - malthusis
pacman281292
RandomGem (1) - pacman281292
hp [leaves] (1) - Kinetic
soaperguy21 (1) - veerus
Tovarish

Current Deadline:

October 24, 2008 at ~6:00 P.M. (GMT -6)

Second Mod Deadline Review:

October 17, 2008 at ~6:00 P.M. (GMT -6)

[armlx]

I also believe the survivor-hunter is a null tell. This is becuase it could make a good Town role.

As well as a good scum role, so it cancels out, hence null tell.

I think that's what you mean?

Cybele (1) - armlx, MafiaSSK, pacman281292

One vote? Orly?

NO WAI! (fixx0red) - Tar

[Cybele]

*eyes reinvigorated discussion*
Reclines in favourite chair, hands behind head*
...And my work here is done.

Now for my replies and rebukes:

Forbiddenlight: You may want to rethink that whole 'Cybele is a survivor' theory. The biggest gap: I've my recent actions have, effectively, thrown myself into the fire, something rather counterintuitive for a survivor, dont'cha think? Also, I'd tell you why I'm not likely to be scumbuddies with Kinetic, but he's already beat me to it.

pacman281292: I didn't random vote. I had a very specific reason for voting Natirasha: i don't like his post. I wanted more information from him, and also to move this stagnant day forward. (I've achieved one of those...) Also, as you may have noticed, "I feel like it." was immediately followed by a reason

why

I felt like it. Go read it and check back on me then.

MafiaSSK: One line of reasoning isn't going to make up for lurking. Attack someone, already! Or are you, too, happy with whomever gets lynched. I should warn you, my stance has made me a likely day one lynch. Try taking another path.

[Kinetic]

Interesting Cybele... a ploy then? Hmm, I can't exactly deny that my own over-aggressive style was an attempt to spark discussion...

[Cybele]

What can I say? I'm a complete newbie (this is about my 3 game on MafiaScum) and I have a short patience. I'd rather be lynched from a game like this than have to suffer though it at the pace it was before. Now, I don't have to worry about it.

Anyways, I really do want Natirasha to respond to the pressure with some elaboration. What is your role, really? What's your 'other win condition'?

Why is having the survivors out themselves a good idea for them? I see no reason why they'd want to, unless they feel especially generous. (I can see it now: "sure, I'll probably die, but doing this will help someone in an entirely different faction win! Yay!") Also: why are we trusting Nat?

[Natirasha]

First of all, I am tentative that there actually is one mafia and one town in this game. I know personally of five alignments, and the fact that each person has two WinCons, I'm calling that there are multiple towns and multiple mafias.

Secondly, I'll save armlx the trouble of pointing out the appeal to emotion from Cybele and the fact that he pulled some pretty blatant WIFOM there.

[Empking]

Nat, please explain more fully. Please.

[armlx]

Secondly, I'll save armlx the trouble of pointing out the appeal to emotion from Cybele and the fact that he pulled some pretty blatant WIFOM there.

Actually, I see neither in that last post. I do see trying to pass off scummy play as a gambit though, and my default assumption is to not buy it.

[Natirasha]

Why is having the survivors out themselves a good idea for them? I see no reason why they'd want to, unless they feel especially generous. (I can see it now: "sure, I'll probably die, but doing this will help someone in an entirely different faction win! Yay!") Also: why are we trusting Nat?

If this isn't WIFOM, I don't know what is.

Empking: What do you want me to explain more fully?

[Empking]

SWhat the alignments are.

Cybele; About your last point. why would non-survivors care about benefits to survivors?

[Natirasha]

SWhat the alignments are.

Cybele; About your last point. why would non-survivors care about benefits to survivors?

I see no point in revealing that information yet.

[Empking]

Why?

[VisMaior]

I think Nat is neutral at best. Dont think it would fit to be a town role.

Also, Im with whomever noticed the "bus" slip.

unvote, vote Kinetic

[Natirasha]

Do you have a reason I should reveal that information?

[armlx]

If this isn't WIFOM, I don't know what is.

Its not. Is a valid analysis of the scenario.

How is that scenario out guessing anyone's behavior?

[RandomGem]

Hi again...
About Kinetic's "bus" slip: if we use that as evidence, doesn't that condemn Natirasha just as much?
And I agree with Cybele's point: why would any player (in this case, the survivors) want to sacrifice themselves to help another faction?

[armlx]

RG: They wouldn't. I'm pretty sure everyone who would claim survivor there would have to be scum or just stupid. Possibly both.

[Cybele]

WHich is my point. Why is everone clamouring to have the survivors claim? They never would.

[armlx]

WHich is my point. Why is everone clamouring to have the survivors claim? They never would.

Because if they did, odds are they aren't actually survivors and are actually scum. So we would lynch them.

[Cybele]

And ever if they were survivors, and we believed them, they'd be good lynch candidates for later in the game.