Babylon 5 Mafia: Severed Dreams - Over

[veerus]

...and so it begins...

Vote: Forbiddanlight

for voting the mod which offers absolutely no information to the other players of this town... or space station as the case may be.

[veerus]

...and so it begins...

Vote: Forbiddanlight for voting the mod which offers absolutely no information to the other players of this town... or space station as the case may be.

Because I've only done this in every OTHER game I have played at least since Mini 630. Even if I did random vote I doubt you'd get much from it.

It's the principle of the matter. You vote for the only person in the thread who is not a player and who can not be lynched. The fact that mods even allow you to do this is completely ridiculous.

[veerus]

I just looked at the recent Mind Screw game.. Some ridiculous stuff went on there. Therefore, I shall

unvote: forbiddanlight

as her antics, in this game, are fully justified given the history of Tar's games.

[veerus]

In addition, in MS2 (the recent game I referenced), the mod was also a player.. a fact not known to the others.

[veerus]

What was the consensus on multiple FOS's in Tar's previous games?

I guess I'll find out. I will FOS all people who have yet to make a post.

FOS: MBPikamon

FOS: populartajo

FOS: Blitzer

FOS: RandomGem

FOS: soaperguy21

To borrow from the series' mythology.. I shall address this question to everyone:

What do you want?

[veerus]

UNFOS: RandomGem

We need to keep an eye on the lurkers.

Darox, why do we need to lynch MafiaSSK?

[veerus]

I can't really support a wagon based on personal bias and not anything game related... but it might get the game moving..

Also,

Unfos: cr3t1n/blitzer
Unfos: populartajo

Looks like we still have 2 total MIA's. I hope they post soon...

[veerus]

Policy lynch for meta reasons is stupid. If you want to go after lurkers, go after lurkers in this game. In fact, I will start:

Unvote; Vote: Tovarish

Other possible targets include:

FOS: populartajo
FOS: The Internet.

Also,

UnFOS: Kinetic/MBPikamon

Whatever happened to soaperguy?

[veerus]

mod:

Please note that I will be V/LA until Tuesday the 14th.

[veerus]

vote: Cybele

Might want to unvote me first as Tar already mentioned earlier...

[veerus]

First of all, I shall

UNFOS all my current FOS targets

. (can I do this,

mod

? or do I have to list them all?) My reasoning for this is that up until now my FOS targets have been for early-game lurking and not game related reasons.

Here are a couple of things I picked up while catching up on the weekend's action:

The survivor claim idea is ridiculous and, as pointed out in 223 by armlx, we would never see one. In fact, the people who have jumped on this idea (kinetic/cybele) currently seem suspicious as hell as it looks like a coordinated attempt between two scum-partners to try and encourage the town into voting for a townie under unrealistic pretenses.

Also, FL's apparent confidence that there ARE two survivors seems suspicious.

FOS: forbiddanlight

In addition, as Natirasha pointed out earlier, based on my role PM I can also deduce that there are at least 5 alignments present in the game. Which also implies that my enemies likely have similar win conditions to mine only with roles obviously reversed. Kinetic's and Empking's failure to understand this and attempts to force Nat to explain it makes me think that their role's win condition is, at the very least, anti-me and quite likely anti-town.

FOS: Empking

I do not really consider Kinetic's "bus" statement a slip as he might've just failed to find a proper verb at the time for what he was trying to say. However, his survivor-based attacks on Natirasha have the "eager scum" feel to them. His pressure on Nat to reveal alignment information only helps support that.

vote: Kinetic
FOS: Cybele

[veerus]

EBWOP:

Simul-post..

Do you have a reason I should reveal that information?

Can we PLEASE give him a reason to reveal information that is very beneficial to the town?

Also, I pose this question to the town: Day 1, what alignment would most likely HAVE this much information?

First of all, how many alignments are in your role PM?

One, Town, your turn.

I feel really confident in my vote now considering this is a blatant lie since in Tar's queue game-start post it was implicitly stated that this game will have:

Multiple factions - the setup is very heavily faction-based. All players will have

at least two

separate win conditions, of which that player need only fulfill one to win, and the game will end when a faction fulfills its win condition.

[veerus]

Err.. EBWOP again:

I just noticed that the question was about alignments and not win conditions. Either way, I'm pretty sure Nat's question was referring to all the alignments mentioned and not just his own alignment. And as there are at least two win conditions, it stands to reason that there are at least 3 alignments in any one role PM. Which still supports my earlier comment that Kinetic is making things up rather than trying to reveal any truthful information. Therefore his win conditions are likely different from mine and are thus anti-me and anti-town.

[veerus]

Whoops... I called DrippingGoofball on it and forgot to do it myself..

Unvote; Vote: Kinetic

Kinetic, you seem eager to claim, so I suggest you start.

[veerus]

at the very least, anti-me and quite likely anti-town. FOS: Empking

So, did anyone ELSE notice this in veerus' post?

FoS Veerus

I don't understand your problem with that statement but I'm guessing your lack of knowledge in the theme is the reason for that. Since this IS a

theme

game that the mod didn't require background knowledge for, I'll try to explain.

In my win conditions, there are four opposing factions mentioned (something that I'm sure is true for most, if not all, players). As I actually know the story of Babylon 5, one of the win conditions specifies factions that I wouldn't exactly call scum, thus the reason for the differentiation.

[veerus]

A mass claim right now is silly. It's been confirmed that there are at least five sides and, I'm guessing, probably at least twice as many WCs.

[veerus]

Army of Light is listed in green in randomgem's role pm.. Green = town usually... thus army of light = town... right? Can we agree on that?

That being said, Nat, I have a hard time believing your claim.

Unvote, Vote: Natirasha

[veerus]

Faction Win Conditions
Army of Light (Town): Defeat Shadows and Vorlon Operatives
Shadow Operatives(Mafia A): Defeat Vorlons and AOL
Vorlon Operatives(Mafia B): Defeat Shadows and AOL

Race Win Conditions
Minbari: Kill Earthforce and Narn, they are hunted by Babylon 5 and Unaligned Worlds
Earthforce: Kill unaligned and Centauri, are hunted by Babylon 5 and Minbari
Babylon 5: Kill Earthforce and Minbari, are hunted by unaligned and Narn
Centauri: Kill unaligned and Narn, are huned by Narn and Earthforce
Narn: Kill Centauri and B5, are hunted by Minbari and Centauri
Unaligned: Kill B5 and Minbari, are hunted by Centauri and Earth force

It is just a big circle guys. We're all hunting each other and in the end the scum will win. We must ignore these win conditions and work toward the Army of Light win condition. I know you all have it, and if you don't, you're not town. If there is seven race win conditions then a few of the above race win conditions are wrong, but the circle will still be there I'm sure. The race win conditions are meant to break the town up.

This is a pretty good guess. One correction though. Vorlons and Shadows are technically races. Therefore, I think the faction WC for them would likely be "kill AOL". And the race WC would probably be "kill the other mafia and Babylon 5". I say B5 because that was the main AOL faction in the series (thus the name of the game).

Anyway, like I said, this is a great guess at the structure even though there are some thematic inconsistencies. But it's quite likely that they are what they are due to game balance reasons and seeing how Tar games have gone in the past, it's not impossible for him to throw in a few inconsistencies to confuse those familiar with the theme. To further support that argument, my race win condition (which you correctly mentioned btw) has such inconsistency I'm talking about so relying solely on thematic knowledge isn't a good idea here. At any rate, I would be for the race claim as the faction WC should be easier to achieve.

That being said, I still think Nat is the best lynch for today. I believe that his claim is fake. This guess is supported by Kinetic's theory and my comments regarding shadow/vorlon win conditions. Even if his claim isn't all fake, Naroon was a renegade and very anti-town in the series.

[veerus]

To further clarify my reason for the race claim is that I'm guessing that all races have a roughly equal number of people. Therefore, during the claim if any one race has more people than other races, that's where the mafia lies...

Hmm, on the other hand (and I'm thinking out loud here), as was pointed out in recent posts, this would encourage people to go for their race WC.. So, if we do not race claim, I guess we can go on as long as we can agree on the likely structure of the game and what to expect out of it. Based on their race/WC's, can anyone else confirm Kinetic's theory or correct it any way?

[veerus]

FL, just because the mod did something in one game, doesn't mean he would do the same thing in another game. Your wild and unbased theories are ridiculous and distracting. This isn't MS so get over it already.

dybeck: Thematically speaking, Narn are not scum, and Shadows are.. this is also supported by the AOL WC.

First, Vorlons and Shadow are technically races, however, Vorlon and Shadow OPERATIVES are the younger races being controled by Shadow and Vorlon plots. Thus, Shadow and Vorlon OPERATIVES (who are the target of the AOL win condition, look at it in Tar's post) are a faction, not a race.

Ahh.. I think I see where you're going with this.

[veerus]

Or, you know, people will want to kill the people who are targeted in their WinCons with all the races claimed.

But since there are so many races, they're unlikely to achieve majority to get the lynch. Whereas if we unite on the AOL WC, we can achieve majority which would give us our best chance to win.

[veerus]

Kinetic, don't you think that the Vorlons/Shadows have races too?

*Cheshire Cat Grin*

There are two possibilities here Nat. And both of them are VERY bad for scum. You're starting to move toward my big reveal and I'd hope you'll stay off this line of thought.

I'm pretty sure I know where Kinetic is going with this... theme knowledge here is key. And while this will come to light sooner or later anyway, I agree that it will be more effective before the race claim.

[veerus]

By the way, Minarbi don't need to kill Narn to win.

Are you saying this because you're a Minbari and that's not one of your WC's?

Or because they didn't in the series and thus don't here? (this second one is a bad assumption)

[veerus]

I think RandomGem should decide who should start the claim (if we do this) since his role was officially revealed by the mod's action.

[veerus]

The goal is to have scummy people claim first fl, so that the people who think are most likely scum and therefore have the most reason to lie have to least info to base a potential lie off of.

Hm, this makes a lot of sense too... I'd support it.

[veerus]

I realize that there are a lot of people here from MS2 where some craaaazy shit went down, but think logically about this for a second. This seems like a straight up theme game. Read your role PM.. is there anything in there that would imply that the other roles would be Mind-Screwy or much more ridiculous than yours? Everyone has two win conditions and everyone is of a certain in-theme race.

Also, I agree with pretty much with everything in VisMaior's post except for the part where he says that RandomGem seems scummy. Why is he scummy? I'll agree that it does seem odd that his role PM would get posted out of the blue, but what makes you (and malth) doubt the validity of it.. besides having read or played in MS2?

[veerus]

pacman.. we're not WC claiming.. we're race claiming in an effort of uniting all the AOL races to go after the scum. (kinda like it went in the series.. good job mod, if that's indeed the idea)

[veerus]

2) Wait, so Shadow and Vorlon have no races?

Where was this stated/assumed?

In the AOL WC.

[veerus]

And noch:

Kinetic is receiving an Official Warning for Jackassery (trying to use the structure of the role PM to gain an advantage) due to his questions about the exact wording of win conditions. He's extremely lucky that I'm not modkilling him on the spot. - Tar

Ehh?Does this confirms Kinetics townness or what?

Excellent point. Kinetic is henceforth mod-confirmed to be a townie on account of the wording "trying to use the structure of the role PM to gain an advantage" - there would be no advantage if he were scum. The mod, who knows this to be a fact, is essentially confirming that Kinetic is in fact scumhunting. Thus he must be a townie.

Now we can look back and see which scumbags are still voting for him.

That's a good observation and I could probably get behind it for a few days. But I'm not sure I would go as far as fully confirm Kinetic. Just because scum are the informed faction in the game doesn't mean that they wouldn't seek additional advantage if they could come up with a way to do it by coming up with something the mod didn't expect or tried to avoid.

[veerus]

Kinetic is confirmed, and forbiddenlight pretty much confirmed as well.

That's a ridiculous statement. The only thing this confirms is how complicated the setup is and that it is probably vulnerable to some unintended loopholes.

[veerus]

No, it means that we have to kill any survivor who claims. We can't give a claim to any scum who might take it. Damn the consequences. I would like to hear Tar's response though...

He replied.. re-read the post where you asked the question.

[veerus]

I think hp needs to claim in much the same fashion Nat did on page 15. By that I mean, I would want a name/race/WC.

For all intents and purposes, we are too close to the deadline to get 20-some people to race claim. What's plan B? Kinetic should probably make his big reveal and let us come to our own conclusions. His theories so far have made a fair amount of sense and have slowly gathered a significant pro-claim opinion. We can't risk him getting NK'd without knowing the full extent of his ideas.

[veerus]

Everyone

should make a claim with their

next post

. This way everyone should be able to claim before deadline (as it is slightly more than 72 hours away). Those who lurk or or fail to claim with their next post should be considered as most scummy. The only person who's currrently V/LA is MafiaSSK (I think) and he should be required as soon as he comes back.

With that said.. I'm B5.

Unvote

until everyone's claimed.

Farside: we are

race

claiming only.

[veerus]

It sounds like theirs a large amount of b5...

Since the game is themed after a Babylon 5 TV series, I would venture a guess that B5 is a relative majority.

[veerus]

Nice catch, Kinetic. Are you implying the PM was faked? If so, that begs the obvious question - why? On the other hand, what's the possibility of the mod using the two interchangeably just like you do and making a typo in the role PM. It's been known to happen.

Pretty damn high, I'd say. - Tar

[veerus]

mod

, I unvoted in post 698 until we get the race claim over with. But to save you the trouble of looking back, I'll do it again.

Unvote

for now.

Kinetic: Since you're probably keeping a running total on everyone's claim already, would you mind posting it so it's easy to see it all in one place?

[veerus]

I'm no longer sold on a Nat lynch. I could justify it since he has no AOL WC, thus he's not really "pro" town, but I wouldn't be overly excited about it.

Nearly everyone's claimed so far. Kinetic needs to post his grand finale.

[veerus]

It really is starting to sound very...fake.

Agreed, but why would scum willingly claim a non-town WC?

Mana_Ku, what is your character's name?

[veerus]

That's one of the members of the League of Non-Aligned Worlds.. or Unaligned.. whatever.

So anyway.. what's the running count on the races? Can someone consolidate the info into one post for those too lazy to do it, or do I have to do it myself?

Mana_ku.. since you're the day cop, who have you investigated and with what result?

Also, Kinetic, as has been mentioned earlier, KOC might not come back before the deadline. I say it's time for you to reveal the big finale of your master plan so we can have time to place our votes.

[veerus]

That's one of the members of the League of Non-Aligned Worlds.. or Unaligned.. whatever.

So anyway.. what's the running count on the races? Can someone consolidate the info into one post for those too lazy to do it, or do I have to do it myself?

Mana_ku.. since you're the day cop, who have you investigated and with what result?

Also, Kinetic, as has been mentioned earlier, KOC might not come back before the deadline. I say it's time for you to reveal the big finale of your master plan so we can have time to place our votes.

[veerus]

stupid quota error message.. sorry for the double post

[veerus]

Does that mean you'll reveal your master plan tomorrow afternoon? I think you should. Include possibilities for what KOC could be and how it affects your theory.

[veerus]

Thanks for the list Mana_Ku. I was going to do it this morning but you saved me the trouble.

If your list is correct, our scum are hiding under the Narn faction. Everyone's roles here (except maybe LoUW) have names that relate to a significant character in the series. Narn had 1 main character and 1 recurring minor character (who probably wouldn't have made the cut anyway). We have 4 claimers. That doesn't jive.

Also, in light of the number of Minbari who have claimed, I'm not so sure about Nat's claim anymore. I was expecting at least 2 claims as there were 2 main characters in the series. I was starting to believe Nat's claim at first as his claim sort of made sense, but now I don't think it's true because it doesn't look like there's room for peripheral, rarely occuring characters in this setup. I think he's our best lynch for today and tomorrow we'll have to quiz Narn claimers and KOC.

Vote: Natirasha

Why is everyone voting for KOC? The only thing I can see against him is that he's V/LA.. and that's hardly scummy since the mod implied that the absense was planned and agreed upon when he replaced in. We have a lot of facts on the table.. let's hold off lynching KOC on pure assumption until we get some facts.

[veerus]

These shenanigans and deception by Kinetic are really starting to wear on me. I'm pretty sure he's still town, but it's irritating. We're nearing the deadline. He needs to stop putting off his big reveal so we have time to evaluate his full theory and complete a lynch.

Kinetic, how can you say that 4 Narn are not an anamoly when Narn only had one significant character in the series while I could name at least 6 B5 easy?

Here's my theory:

If you want to know where at least one of the scum are hiding, look no further than the Narn. Even without the theme's knowledge, the numbers don't lie. It looks as if all non-B5 races have, at most, 3 members. Narn has 4 claims. At least one of the Narn's is either Earthforce or Centauri... I'm guessing KOC is also one of these two factions. And with Kinetic's new claim, there are 3 LoUW and 3 Minbari. This makes 6 B5 and 3 of all other races which seems like a plausible setup.

And here's the big reveal (I'm guessing this will be similar to Kinetic's and I'm tired of waiting):

The key here is the wording in the AOL WC -- we are to kill all Shadow/Vorlon

operatives

. In the series, Shadows and Vorlons used the "lesser" races to do most of their shenanigans. That idea translates to the setup. Our scum is hiding within the known races.

Let me make a small logical leap and say that those who have claimed the anti-Shadow/Vorlon conditions are the OPERATIVES of the other faction (anti-Shadow are Vorlon operatives and vice versa). Here's the theme releated breakdown of the races for possible scum:

Centauri -- there's probably one Shadow operative (likely Lord Reefa or the Emperor). Centauri also had 2 town-aligned characters. We know RB is one of those two.

Earthforce -- we know hp[leaves] is a Shadow operative. There may even be one more. Earthforce personel caused nothing but trouble for B5.

Minbari -- Nat is the Vorlon operative. Other two are town.

Narn -- as I've said before, this race had 1 significant character and he was town. This is a grey area as the mod could've done something creative and unexpected with the other two players.

LoUW -- I would guess they're either vanilla or scum as both Shadows and Vorlons had used LoUW races for some stuff but nothing overly significant and I'm not about to try and out-guess the mod here.

B5 -- the namesake town faction. Mana_Ku is a Vorlon operative. A possible B5 character could be "Kosh" who's an actual Vorlon but would obviously count as a Vorlon operative.

By my count, that's 3 anti-AOL right there (2 Vorlon and 1 Shadow). It's a creative catch-22 by the mod as at least two of our anti-AOL's are cops. Also, as a question of balance, is 4 scum balanced against 17 town? Or should we expect one or two more? Also, this does not cover survivors, but maybe Kinetic's theory will.

[veerus]

Holy shit. I'm wrong. Veerus is scum...

He thinks that B5 is the "Obvious town race" so he claimed it...

Unvote:Vote: Veerus

1. I never said B5 was the "obvious town race". Nice job putting words in my mouth.

FOS: Kinetic.

In fact, I said that of the six B5 claimers, as many as two could be Vorlon (aka anti-town).

2. Are you implying that you disagree with my theory that anti-Shadow

means

Vorlon? Or vice versa? If I'm right, this means that if you're AOL WC, you need to lynch them. Your WC assumptions, as correct as they may be for the AOL characters, are garbage when talking about scum. I haven't seen a single argument from you about possible scum WC's. And my theory makes sense. While your hesitation to lynch likely scum, or even reveal their possible motivations, does not. Plus you've shifted your vote how many times now?

3. I accounted for 3 Narn which means there could be at least one totally random character. So I don't understand your problem with my theory. For your theory to be "mathematically balanced" as your comment implies, if every faction had 4 players, we'd have 24 players, not 21. This makes me think that your theory is not at all a game breaking revelation.

4. Like Nat said.. this isn't Stargate. Unlike Stargate, B5 has multiple clearly defined factions. Stargate's character list had humans (no matter how obscure they were) and non-humans. B5 has lotsa races. I'm not saying they should be held as the absolute truth (as evidenced by the untrue WC's), but this wouldn't be a theme game if it wasn't at least loosely followed. All the claims I've seen (and my character) are all known characters from the series so it is reasonable for me to assume the same for most other players.

While I still think you're town (a feeling that's quickly fading), I don't agree with your theory. A theory that you've put off revealing for yet another day...

[veerus]

Wow, did Veerus actually just say that?

Say what? The namesake thing? To think otherwise is ridiculous. The game is themed on revolving around B5, B5 had the most main characters and most of those characters fit the AOL WC. I say this because we have a B5 character claim who's not one of the main 4 commander-type characters from the series (one of whom is my role thus the theory). That alone makes at least 5 B5's. And I can name half a dozen more obscure and well known characters that could be B5-aligned and in the set up.

Plus seems to me I'm not the only one who thinks there are 6 B5 and 3 everyone else and yet I'm the one being chastised for it? Scum bandwagon?

[veerus]

Hm.. interesting. Not very true to the story but balanced. I'm sorry you think I was trying to confuse everyone. I was merely trying to fit the setup to the story, but seeing your theory I can now see how you think the story is a red herring.

What of the survivor and anti-shadow/vorlon WC people.. how do they fit into the balance? If there are 3 survivors and 3 of each scum race operative, they have to only kill 6 and not 7. Or am I confusing the two WC's?

Also, what's your definition of "anti-town"? By my definition, Nat/hp/Mana are all anti-town.

Lastly, I don't think RG's posted role PM is a fake.. I just can't imagine a scenario where someone would want to loudly announce a fake claim on someone who wasn't under pressure at the time. Based on that I suppose I can buy into your theory of the other Centauri being anti-town. Though how do you distinguish that from Nat/hp/Mana?

[veerus]

I'd probably even rather lynch KoC then work on the speculation that the scum/anti-town groups are evenly distributed among the secondary WC's.

My vote is part that but more because of Internet's latest post claiming three mafia in each :S. That's out of NOWHERE.

It's not out of nowhere. It was in Kinetic's big reveal post at the bottom of the previous page.

Also, armlx, I find it really suspicious that you ignore cr3t1n's posts. They're not easy to read, true, but he brings up good points in them sometimes. In this last series of posts, he said that while I concentrate too much on the flavor/theme, he does not find me scummy. Malt is still scummier. He also disagrees with my argument that anti-x factions are pro-y factions and thus scum.

In fact, after a quick review of armlx's posts, it seems that he's been coasting along. Ignoring cr3t1n's posts is just the latest point of evidence. Armlx has made numerous posts in this thread, yet his contributions have been minimal as I counted less than five posts where the post length was longer than 3 lines/sentences. He seems to latch on to the latest "best" lynch suspect with barely an explanation.

FOS: armlx

With that said, I would be ok with a KOC lynch since he's by all accounts back but not posting in the thread knowing that the deadline is hours away.

[veerus]

If it was a true OMGUS, I would've voted for you and tried to make a case out of it. I was just pointing out an observation for people to make their own conclusions out of. To me, you look like you're coasting. It is what it is. Is it scummy? Not neccesarily, but the FOS will remind me to keep an eye on you for later.

1st, do you honestly want to put up with cr3t1n this game? P sure the answer is no.

I won't lie, I cringe when I see his posts, but he was allowed to replace in by the mod so his words are worth about as much as any one else's.

[veerus]

unvote

vote: The Internet

Time to put Kinetic's theory to the test.. if he's right on this, the rest of his theories will gain more weight. Otherwise we'll know early enough not to rely on his theories too heavily.

[veerus]

There's been a lot of posting in the last little while.

Anyone reading through should note that if they fail to read it all, the bottom line is that we're lynching Knight of Cydonia.

You win the understatement of the year award. This thread has seen nearly 4 pages in the past 17 or so hours (since my last post). I just got home from work and am trying to catch up on everything.

1.

unvote; Vote: KoC

2. Kinetic, you must've done really well in your logic class... Tar must hate you. (assuming you're right, which sure is hard to dispute right now)

[veerus]

Alright, among the races THERE ARE

Narn: One AOL, One Scum, One Non-Town
Minbari: One AOL, One Scum, One Non-Town
Centauri: One AOL, One Scum, One Non-Town
B5: One AOL, One Scum, One Non-Town
EF: One AOL, One Scum, One Non-Town
Unaligned: One AOL, One Scum, One Non-Town

Isn't this 18?.. The game has 21 players. Or did I miss something?

[veerus]

God, I make 1 post referencing cr3t1n's existence in response to a semi-legible post, then this bull shit.

Yeah, I noticed that too. I am about 40% sure that he's doing it on purpose. I can't imagine anyone typing this poorly because they can't do better.

[veerus]

Minbari: Kill Unaligned and Earthforce, are hunted by B5 and Earthforce
Earthforce: Kill B5 and Minbari, are hunted by Narn and Minbari
Babylon 5: Kill Centauri and Minbari, are hunted by Earthforce and Unaligned
Centauri: Kill unaligned and Narn, are hunted by B5 and Narn
Narn: Kill Earthforce and Narn, are hunted by Minbari and Centauri
Unaligned: Kill Centauri and B5, are hunted by Minbari and Centauri

I'm not sure who posted this and when (I'm guessing Kinetic and sometime in the past 17 hours ), but the B5 condition is wrong.

B5 needs to kill EF and Minbari.

[veerus]

I thought I was voting for KoC, I forgot I switched to veerus.

In any even I cannot imagine any scenario where KoC is town. I think he's scum that's given up.

vote: Knight of Cydonia

DIE SCUM DIE

DGB.. please unvote first... Tar does not count votes that weren't unvoted.

[veerus]

No, I had not unvoted veerus.

unvote, vote: KnightofCydonia

KRAP I loathe, hate, despise mods that are anal with unvoting.

Would it be considered a rule <1a> violation of DGB or Tar if a no-lynch was forced because someone forgot to unvote? That would be funny. (ironic funny, not haha funny)

If she's scum, that's technically a good way to look like you tried to help with the lynch when in fact you didn't. It's far-stretched, I know. I'm hoping Tar won't be that anal since she did it the right way very quick-like.

[veerus]

Also guys, we have at least 12 hours of twilight (according to the rules), so any discussion can continue. I'd love if KoC would still race claim (rofl).

I understand that in games with nights, twilight is the time between the hammer vote and the mod locking the thread.

But I've not played a Deep South setup before. Does the thread ever get locked? Can we vote while in twilight? If so, what's the difference between day and twilight? 'splain, Lucy..

[veerus]

So much for people trying to fulfill their WC's and end games early... Kinetic, I think now would be a good time to reveal why you only had 18 races listed in one of your earlier posts. (or if you want to wait until the day officially starts, that's fine too)

Tar

, I search the corpse of KOC, the slain Minbari. Do I find any implicating items?

Maybe... - Tar

[veerus]

Those three extras are another faction.

Obviously. What faction? Do survivors really count as a faction?

[veerus]

Knight of Cydonia, Vorlon Operative

/Minbari Godfather

, lynched Day 1

Any ideas what to make of this? Because I'm looking intently at the other Minbari right now.

He's probably a Vorlon Operative Godfather who also happens to be a Minbari. I doubt all Minbari are scum.. that would be too easy.

Anyway... I remember Kinetic saying sometime in the last 24 hours that he did not believe that KOC was scum based on the latest data at the time. How does the fact that KOC

is

scum change that theory?

[veerus]

Oh, hey, I'm the Bus Driver today.

Is that today's ability that Tar sent you?

[veerus]

Also, it appears Darox lied about his race.. tough situation since he had no race (in the sense that most of us do). How does that affect the latest working theory?

[veerus]

Oh, hey, I'm the Bus Driver today.

Is that today's ability that Tar sent you?

Yes

wtf..... what does that do?

[veerus]

Knight of Cydonia, Vorlon Operative/Minbari Godfather, lynched Day 1
Dybeck, Narn Bat Squad Leader, Anti-Vorlon/Narn Member, throttled Day 1
Darox, Lorien, Cult of Pacifism Leader/Neutral Survivor, neck snapped Day 1

I think you're misreading Tar's note... or rather he's doing some creative omitting.

The factions are listed in the alignment/race/ROLE format.

So the three members' alignments are "vorlon operative", "anti-vorlon" and "cult (leader)".

The races are Minbari, Narn, Neutral

Roles: Godfather, Member (aka relative vanilla), Survivor

This also fills in the race blank for the other 3 (now 2) "survivor" members in Kinetic's earlier diagram.

Of course this presents a difficult dillema. We have 2 people who lied about their race which, no doubt, puts a major wrench in Kinetic's theory of numbers. If they re-claim, they paint a big target on their heads. If they don't, Kinetic's theory can never be perfect and thus will have to be, for all intents and purposes, discounted or at least taken with a grain of salt. Catch-22...

[veerus]

Kinetic, I know you don't like me trying to attach the theme to everything, but this IS a

Babylon 5 themed game

. Roles were made with at least some connection to the series. When I was reading the following quote, it made me think that you said just about everything that would sound more plausible if you attached the theme subcontext to it instead of just presenting it as another theory.

This is just a random guess, and I'm afraid I'm not as sure of it as any of my other ideas, but I'm thinking that maybe the Vorlons are from the Minbari, B5, and unaligned, just like their anti-shadow counterparts and that the Shadows are from Centauri, Narn, and EF just like the anti-vorlons.

In the series, Vorlons

did

ally with Minbari, B5 and unaligned (by extention of unaligned being allied with B5). Same goes for the Shadows, for the most part. Centauri and EF

were

allied with the Shadows. Narns not so much, but if Malt's claim is legit, then maybe Narn are the true "town" faction since he would be the second non-scum Narn. I know it throws your numbers off a bit... but I think you've said earlier that the numbers may not be equal.

Also, to follow on my earlier theory and attach it to the theme, Alfred Bester is an Anti-Vorlon and is pro-Shadow (aka Shadow Operative) because half the stuff he did in the series, he did it for the Shadows.

Same goes for Mana_Ku. In the series, Lyta Alexander was the only human who "saw" inside a Vorlon. Her Anti-Shadow allignment combined with the character name just screams Vorlon Operative.

I'm not trying to outguess the mod and whatever tricks he's prepared to confuse those familiar with the theme. But look at the facts:

- Vir Cotto is a vanilla Centauri who was pretty much against both Shadows and Vorlons in the series as well as in the game
- Lorien is a neutral. Once the idea of neutrals/survivors came up, I knew Lorien had to be in the set up. I just didn't know in what capacity. Now I know, and the role also discounts other possible independents (soul hunters, that bitch who found immortality, etc)
- Dybeck's role as well as Malt's claim are nameless pro-town Narns, which also makes sense since Narns were not a race with a lot of key characters.
- Lennier as a Vorlon Godfather is a bit disconcerning, but since Minbari were allied with the Vorlons from the start, it's not entirely unexpected that a Minbari would be the Godfather.

I guess my point here is that I would like to lynch either hp[leaves] or Mana_Ku. They both claimed cops and they both returned no results. They both claimed Anti-x roles when it is just as likely that they are listed as X Operatives and just decided to conceal that fact by using the "safe" format already presented by Nat. I'll repeat again, I'm not trying to outguess the mod, but I believe that it is plausible that the mod didn't expect people to do such a full claim as they have done so far. I would assume that most people would claim an ability(cop/doctor/etc) and a race, but not

everything

as we have seen so far. And to any other player, the character names are mostly meaningless. To someone with knowledge of the theme, those two names just scream Shadow/Vorlon.

vote: hp[leaves]

If he comes up town, or anything but Shadow Operative, I will not mention theme connections for the rest of the game.

Also, as far as farside is concerned. The role PM is not very confusing. She's been on the site for a while and is even modding a probably similarly confusing theme game "Family Guy". Claiming incompetence is a poor way to clear yourself when caught lying. I think she would also be a fine lynch target however I would like to confirm my theme connections first.

[veerus]

Say what you want about cr3t1n's spelling, but he pulls up some quality quotes.

If hp isn't scum, then Malt dies tomorrow. It's as simple as that.

FOS: empking
FOS: mafiassk

For doing some serious lurking (check their posts in isolation). I think cr3t1n posted more non-fluff, actual scum-hunting text in the last day than those two have posted all game.. combined.

[veerus]

Ah.. infamous Tar vote counts. You're either missing someone or there are 6 people currently voting for hp[leaves]. Unless hp is voting for himself? I don't remember seeing that.

The error was in failing to add the right name to the vote count. MafiaSSK is voting hp [leaves]. Fixed. - Tar

[veerus]

If hp isn't scum, then Malt dies tomorrow. It's as simple as that.

QFE.

Why the unvote? Either way we'll get one more scum. And I'd prefer to lynch hp first because if his true role doesn't correspond to the theme, I'll eat my hat.

[veerus]

If dybeck says Bus driver I'm voting HP.

That was my point.....

huh? anyone care to explain this for the dense ones in the crowd?

[veerus]

gaaaayyyy.. totally didn't think i'd die today.. sorry i let you down, tar

[veerus]

sigh... totally didn't expect to get killed in N2. N3 was going to get locked down too.

[veerus]

Can someone explain "falseclaims" to me?

[veerus]

I probably should have slammed the hammer down when I checked the thread before dinner Day 1 (or just not granted an extension) as a lesson for players in Tar games in the future.

It would've kind of sucked to lose a game on a technicality of having to unvote. IMO, you made the right choice in letting the game continue since the original vote came in before the deadline.

[veerus]

Ivanova - One of the first roles added to the setup, she remained untouched during design. If I had been playing this role, I would probably have globalblocked D2 (especially since that could protect malthusis/Mana_Ku) then daykilled ASAP D3), but veerus's decision made some sense.

I actually was wondering why there wasn't a globalblock D3 (after seeing the roles), which would have completely ruined my plans, since I'm not sure how long I could get away with claiming AoL vig, and claiming SK/Survivor would automatically make me the best lynch given the situation.

There would've been if I hadn't died in N2. I planned on blocking in N3 and blowing someone up in D4. I thought I had enough random suspicion on me (thinking B5 would have the most people and claiming as such) that I wouldn't get NK'd. And the extra day would've given me more information on who to blow up in D4.

[veerus]

Now, time to get preparations together for Mind Screw 3... things like finishing balance, writing flavor text, and checking to see who wants to pre-in...

After playing this, I want more crazy Tar games!

/pre-in for MS3