Babylon 5 Mafia: Severed Dreams - Over

[armlx]

Why am I your policy lynch again?

The better question is why shouldn't you be?

Vote pacman

[armlx]

What is this history you speak of?

There were shenanigans involving votes being invisibly placed on people other then the person being voted (up or down on the player list?), FOS's and votes counting together or what not. Basically bat shit insane, but I doubt it is like that in this game due to the fact the game isn't themed to mind fuck the players.

[armlx]

Hey, FL, your vote is still on the mod. And you moved an FOS.

Unvote, Vote FL

[armlx]

FL, this all sounds like dumb ways to get us to avoid playing actual mafia based on past game shenanigans.

[armlx]

Its definitely not the best use. The point is to gather information about player interactions, not the set up.

[armlx]

I doubt this is anywhere near as mind screwy as those games. I think FoSes don't do anything and suggest we move on.

This.

However, this time, we should lynch any survivors we find.

When the hell was lynching any survivor claim NOT the default.

[armlx]

Yeah, fuck that. Just saying, policy lynch survivors on sight. You will be glad you did it, even if they are survivors.

[armlx]

This is why noone likes playing survivour roles.

Survivors without some way to actively win the game suck.

[armlx]

Vote on pacman stands for not voting.

[armlx]

Unvote, Vote Vismaior

I don't like how you attack someone for pointing out an illegitimate attack.

[armlx]

In my experience, you are wrong on this subject.

[armlx]

Vote on pacman stands for not voting.

I voted randomgem

Not in that post, but I see it now. Irrel, as my vote is on an actually scummy person now.

[armlx]

beeing

This typo mades me laugh way too much.

[armlx]

SSK is probably the definition of a policy lynch.

But policy lynches are only "optimal" in the absence of actually scummy behavior.

[armlx]

SSK is probably the definition of a policy lynch.

But policy lynches are only "optimal" in the absence of actually scummy behavior.

Not me?

No, I've seen you legitimately do helpful things in games once you get involved (Space Monkeys, Realistic).

[armlx]

Kinetic, the issue at hand is SSK basically active lurks in every game he is in. At best.

[armlx]

You say that like I didn't understand the situation before you said it. I'm not going to easy lynch anyone based on an out of game reason. When you start moving out of game for primary reasons you set a very poor precedent that I for one won't follow.

I realize, I was more commenting on how you said he would be scummy if he active lurked, rather then just worthless and null.

[armlx]

No problem, my post was intentionally vague to see how far the baiting thing could go, but I think its about over now.

That said, Cybele seems like a fine place to start.

Unvote, Vote Cybele, FOS VisMaior

[armlx]

What are the reasonings for your Fos and your vote?

Cybele bit on the SSK wagon. I've explained why I was voting VisMaior to begin with.

What are your reasons for your vote/lac thereof?

[armlx]

Is a policy lynch actually being considered?

No, I'm pretty sure this was Darox setting up to trap scum on a policy wagon. Its a good trick, it just loses a lot of value between uses.

[armlx]

I'm down with Survivors claiming.

[armlx]

Well, since Nat just blew it, Kinetic, the reason town would want survivors to claim is odds are the people who do claim are more likely to be scum then actual survivors.

[armlx]

Cybele's automatic hop to Natirasha makes me confident in my vote.

[armlx]

SSK, mind elaborating? I agree with you 100%, but this is my attempts to force you to participate.

[armlx]

Her 192 is actually legit reasoning Pacman, the rest of her posts are the issue.

[armlx]

So...let me understand your logic, Kinetic...your voting me because...wait...your voting me because...your voting me because I want to win?

We vote scum who just want to win, do we not?

This. Killing people who are actually survivors is a little short of optimal for town, not quite mislynches but worse then scum lynching.

[armlx]

I also believe the survivor-hunter is a null tell. This is becuase it could make a good Town role.

As well as a good scum role, so it cancels out, hence null tell.

I think that's what you mean?

Cybele (1) - armlx, MafiaSSK, pacman281292

One vote? Orly?

NO WAI! (fixx0red) - Tar

[armlx]

Secondly, I'll save armlx the trouble of pointing out the appeal to emotion from Cybele and the fact that he pulled some pretty blatant WIFOM there.

Actually, I see neither in that last post. I do see trying to pass off scummy play as a gambit though, and my default assumption is to not buy it.

[armlx]

If this isn't WIFOM, I don't know what is.

Its not. Is a valid analysis of the scenario.

How is that scenario out guessing anyone's behavior?

[armlx]

RG: They wouldn't. I'm pretty sure everyone who would claim survivor there would have to be scum or just stupid. Possibly both.

[armlx]

WHich is my point. Why is everone clamouring to have the survivors claim? They never would.

Because if they did, odds are they aren't actually survivors and are actually scum. So we would lynch them.

[armlx]

I'm pretty sure at least one of Nat and Kinetic is not "town". There's even a possibility of both, though I doubt both are "scum".

Using those terms loosely due to the possibility of conflicting WCs.

[armlx]

Oh, and

Unvote

. I'll take 50/50 at worst odds over a D1 suspicion. Not going to vote until we have more info on the situation, but I'm seeing Nat the least likely to be "town" here but Kinetic as most likely to be "scum".

[armlx]

DGB, thoughts on the whole Win Condition issue?

[armlx]

Lakitu in Mushroom Kingdom.

That role was utter bull shit and over powered.

[armlx]

The races thing is the one that gets me, thought its possible I'm confused as I know nothing about B5.

[armlx]

I don't know if naming the faction is going to do anything. If the non-town WC's are anything like the town one, it should be obvious regardless of alignment.

There's 3 specific things Kinetic did that irk me though.

1) Call for mass claim.

2) The one alignment thing

3) Distancing from Cybele.

Given that he hasn't imploded in any major way that I can see regarding his WC, I'm inclined to think Nat as neutral and him as town is a likely enough possibility that there is higher value in doing this.

Vote Cybele

I wouldn't be surprised if Nat is actually a survivor btw.

[armlx]

FOS Malthusis

Should be obvious.

[armlx]

It goes without saying... but if we massclaim... scum will pick their favorite massclaim from those offered and use it for their own...

This.

[armlx]

So... Kinetic, you are admitting to fishing?

[armlx]

I was hoping that while we were talking about it someone might have come forward, maybe with some more information about the set-up if they had it, but alas, either no one knows, they are lurking, or just aren't reading anything and are just skimming posts (most likely)...

This. You were hoping your mass claim got someone to reveal role information in an unprompted manner.

[armlx]

Malth: It was regarding the vig comment.

And SSK, I'm up for you making a contribution to this game at some point.

[armlx]

You know that trying to mass claim faction names (not WC's) is practically mass genocide? When WC's are saying that you have to kill a faction, this is going to be an utter vigfest. FoS: people pushing this idea

There you go pacman.

And D1 mass claim is only "optimal" in A) games with too few townies and/or too many vanilla mafiates and B) poorly designed theme games.

[armlx]

1. There is no town in this game.

Unvote, Vote Nat

Confirmed non-town = die plz.

[armlx]

I'm saying there is no town in this game because each alignment wants someone else dead. Ergo, there is no town. Just people who want other people dead.

Town wants mafia/SK dead in normal games.

Just saying.

[armlx]

I'm trying to figure out a way to test this without revealing a power role.

[armlx]

Kinetic, wouldn't ever claiming their race just lead to more issues with people pursuing their race WC over the AOL one? Why not just have everyone agree to NEVER claim race, which means no one can ever target another race specifically and therefore has to win via their alignment WC.

[armlx]

I do not endorse the race claim as it will have the exact opposite effect Kinetic is saying it will.

[armlx]

As people die we'll learn their race. What will happen when Centauri find that, its true that the town is losing, but if they find ONE MORE NARN they can win? What will happen when any race does that? What if this boils down to a race war? Keeping the races secret, that is what this will become. Doing a race claim when there is an imbalance of power is what this will become. While the races are all balanced is the ONLY time a race claim can have any effect. Once there is a death, everything goes out the window unless we stop it, here and now.

You assume every race knows exactly how many members of each race, including their own, there are. Without this knowledge, the races can't possibly figure out at exactly what point they gain value on focusing on their race WC.

Armlx, what do you think will happen if we will race claim now?

Nothing during the day. But at night I expect a lot of actions to be swayed by claimed races, especially potential vig kills like Nat said.

Kinetic, what makes you assume Nat needs to kill the Shadow Ops and knows the wording from that, as opposed to anything else? Hell, the info was revealed in the thread.

[armlx]

Nat is trying to help the town now. What i was wondering is if Nat's WC directly stated Shadows as opposed to Shadow Operatives. You see, if it mentioned Shadows, and hp's mentioned Vorlons and not Operatives then perhaps something I was mulling over may have fit. I... can't exactly explain everything yet, but it was important.

Fair.

Did I say that? No, I didn't. You're assuming I'm assuming something I'm not assuming... There are other ways to skin a cat.

I assumed that was one of your assumptions. Otherwise, how would a race know when another race was at low numbers, or theirs was at high numbers, until the late game.

That is the beauty of a thing.

I realize the game is Deep South and there isn't really a night, but all actions resolving at the end of the day is the exact same thing really.

[armlx]

They wouldn't need to know exact. They'd have to reach the same conclusion I have, which frankly, isn't very hard to reach if you know where to look.

I realize what your conclusion is. Its possible its just wrong though.

If you are that sure though and have hidden info, I'm down with a claim. Vote to see who starts, then popcorn from there though.

[armlx]

Right, you don't want there to be traces of scum influence?

Or do you feel that will be more of an issue then an info source?

[armlx]

I vote Cybele starts. Previous reasons about scumminess apply.

[armlx]

Yeah.

The goal is to have scummy people claim first fl, so that the people who think are most likely scum and therefore have the most reason to lie have to least info to base a potential lie off of.

[armlx]

Yes and also when you are choosing who to claim next, your intent is to pick who you think the scummiest person is. Nailing a scum early in a popcorn claim is the best strategy.

This. Then, later, if someone flips scum, you can look at who they chose. Or question people on why they chose someone after the claim, as they should be choosing off logical reasons.

[armlx]

Dybeck, that is how I understand it.

[armlx]

raceclaim might make some weird greedy guys go on and screw the game against town.

I assume Kinetic has information that negates this.

[armlx]

2) Wait, so Shadow and Vorlon have no races?

Where was this stated/assumed?

[armlx]

In the AOL WC.

Read again sir.

[armlx]

Ehh?Does this confirms Kinetics townness or what?

No, not given the fact the information he was asking about was posted in thread.

[armlx]

I was really considering voting malthusis for that Kinetic vote, but Nat is confirmed non-town so.....

[armlx]

What do you think of hp[leaves] then?

Did I miss something with respect to him? I honestly don't remember seeing a post from him in forever.

[armlx]

Massclaiming races will divide the town and create tension whenever someone of a certain race dies, especially when that race is getting thinned out. I don't want this game to get that racist.

It's a bad idea.

While I agree in principle, Kinetic (presumably) has a trump card here.

[armlx]

He claimed the anti-Vorlon win condition.

Hmm, I missed that.

Unvote, Vote HP[leaves]

Rather lynch the person latching onto the first non-town claim.

Honestly though, I think its likely that 1 is Vorlon and 1 is Shadow at this point. I can't see there being enough survivors that the Anti-Vorlon and Anti-Shadow win conditions are significantly different enough from the AoL win con to make that viable from a design standpoint.

[armlx]

Malthusis baffles me again....

[armlx]

I'm interested in seeing Malthusis answer that.

[armlx]

Then why him over HP?

[armlx]

I think pacman is neutral. He is acting protown, but his reluctance to do the plan suggests to me he has problems with raceclaiming.

Why does that imply neutral over scum?

[armlx]

I'm fairly sure there is at least one survivor(because there not being one makes us pretty much a strictly easier to win town.

This is my issue with your role. Town usually kills survivors anyways.

[armlx]

Yes, but you don't have to kill it to win. I do.

I realize. But killing survivors is more or less default as town as mafia hide under that blanket way too well to let any known survivors live, and usually survivors aren't in a good situation to fake claim away a potential lynch. So the odds of a low number of survivors living through the game makes your WC more or less strictly easier then the towns. So, there has to be a lot of survivors relative to the design space of the game for your WC to work out.

This assumes the standard vanilla survivor only though, but I can't see how survivor power roles would be a good design.

[armlx]

Besides hp and Nat there is only one other survivor.

Hmm. Them each being a "survivor" makes sense.

[armlx]

The game ends when a win condition is fulfilled unless that win condition explicitly says otherwise. A faction need not be alive to fulfill its win condition unless that win condition explicitly says otherwise. - Tar

So that explains a lot. Nat and HP are essentially scum without kills.

[armlx]

The game ends when a win condition is fulfilled unless that win condition explicitly says otherwise. A faction need not be alive to fulfill its win condition unless that win condition explicitly says otherwise. - Tar

So that explains a lot. Nat and HP are essentially scum without kills.

Also, we simply have to kill one mafia and kill survivors. Actually, even if you kill me, I think my chances of winning are good.

Mod, if all players with a given WC are dead then the WC is achieved, does the game end in a win for that WC?

Yes unless explicitly stated otherwise. - Tar

[armlx]

Sigh.... I really wanted KoC to start the claim, but I guess the whole V/LA thing fucks that up.

[armlx]

Just to make sure nobody missed it (I usually answer questions by editing the post where the question is posed): The game ends when a win condition is fulfilled unless that win condition explicitly says otherwise. A faction need not be alive to fulfill its win condition

unless that win condition explicitly says otherwise.

Giant text emphasis mine.

Why though?

[armlx]

Giant emphasis is that Tar is acknowledging that there are survivor roles in the game. Truth be told, I think I'd rather kill Nat the more I think about it...

I'd assume that the Survivor roles' win condition is something along the lines of "Be alive when the game ends" which doesn't end the game by itself.

[armlx]

No, we also have to kill all survivors, too. So if you avoid killing the survivors...

Then scum claim survivor?

As such, I think hp and nat are lying and that they either need to do more than simply kill their respective groups or they need to be alive when their respect groups get finished off.

This, but I think the later.

[armlx]

Mana Ku: Or there are 3 and 2 lying scum, but sure.

[armlx]

Dybeck right now most of the town is leaning towards you or KoC. Can you please start us off and then choose who you want to claim next.

This is going to be so awkward given 2 of the people probably wanted to claim relatively highly (KoC and SSK, the later to try and get something relevant out of him) aren't here.

[armlx]

League of Non-Aligned Worlds.

[armlx]

I'm going to check something with Tar before my next post. Just remember the jackassery rule.

[armlx]

Meh, whatever, I'll just post it.

Its Unaligned Worlds. I screwed it up as I was doing Wiki-research on the subject to make sure I didn't have to fake claim my race, and its stated as Non-Aligned Worlds there. The connotation of the race name as well as the race win condition made me think it was possibly "scum" in the whole race part of the game (aka smaller numbers but higher power of roles, though I guess it would have to be uninformed scum which sucks balls). The fact I thought this should be evident from a lot of my earlier responses to Kinetic about unbalanced numbers and what not.

[armlx]

Would you mind telling me if I had the WC right for your race?

Yup, you were right.

[armlx]

Thank you Mana_Ku. My solution to the cr3tin issue was actually just not read his posts and hope there was a smart vig who would just kill him.

[armlx]

I'm intrigued that not only are there no Vorlons and Shandows, but no Centauri either.

???

There's so many reasons the former should be obvious.

Centauri... there's one so far.

[armlx]

I'm more dependable and trustful than Nat and his constantly changing ability.

Where did Nat's ability become changing.

That said

Unvote

while the claim is considered.

[armlx]

So... Nat is a mutator, and HP is a cop for the faction he is attacking?

Uhhh... talk about disparity.

[armlx]

I'm no longer sold on a Nat lynch. I could justify it since he has no AOL WC, thus he's not really "pro" town, but I wouldn't be overly excited about it.

Except it appears his WC is going to directly conflict with ours (as he has claimed).

[armlx]

2 more claims to go hp.

[armlx]

I'm down with Mana_Ku. Most likely to be lying of the confirmed not towns given the barnacling of the first claim.

Vote Mana Ku

[armlx]

Armlx, that statement is wrong. Why do you say that we're non towns? Nat and hp have claimed their characters. I've checked and I know from hp's character why he doesn't want to kill Shadow operatives. My character also has a reason for not wanting to kill Vorlon operatives. But that doesn't mean that the anti-vorlons/shadows are non town.

I've seen no reason to see why your WC doesn't involve ending the game when its achieved, aka making you non-town.

[armlx]

Unvote

alignment symmetry etc etc.

I still feel HP/Nat/Mana_Ku's WC are going to conflict with ours, but the benefit for them being alive is positive in the short run.

Vote KoC

Cybele etc etc

[armlx]

This is getting annoying from SSK and KoC. At this point I'm about to say the next that race claims gets a pass for today and we're lynching the other to figure out their race the hard way.

KoC is V/LA till possibly the 2nd according to his posts across the site, so its obvious who would be getting the "pass", but I can't say I'd be adverse to his lynch.

[armlx]

Wow, did Veerus actually just say that?

Waiting on a KoC post but that whole thing for Veerus was absurd to the max.

[armlx]

Uhhh..... see.

Its p obvious that the truth is far from that.

Plus seems to me I'm not the only one who thinks there are 6 B5 and 3 everyone else and yet I'm the one being chastised for it? Scum bandwagon?

Lol.

You were the one who tried using the race distribution to single out scum based on unbalanced numbers, which is not true at all.

[armlx]

I think Kinetic is outguessing the mod too much on the balanced factional distribution among the races, but the even race distribution seems like a very viable assumption.

[armlx]

Much rather lynch Veerus. I find his statement about B5 being obv town to be disconcerting

I'd probably even rather lynch KoC then work on the speculation that the scum/anti-town groups are evenly distributed among the secondary WC's.

[armlx]

I'm deliberately ignoring and not reading the above 2 posts. Just saying, post in English.

[armlx]

Wow, missed that.

That's good enough to bump him over KoC.

[armlx]

EBWODP: That's all assuming KoC isn't just going to lurk out of a claim now that he is back.

[armlx]

And Veerus makes an OMGUS based on completely null logic, then the classic "I'd be fine with X tho".

1st, do you honestly want to put up with cr3t1n this game? P sure the answer is no.

2nd, show me where my posts haven't gotten the point across, and then you cna bitch about them being short.

[armlx]

Except its so close to deadline you know you won't get away with said vote, so your first point fails.

I won't lie, I cringe when I see his posts, but he was allowed to replace in by the mod so his words are worth about as much as any one else's.

That's a faulty assumption.

[armlx]

I can confirm the LoUW win con.

Minbari: Kill Unaligned and Earthforce, are hunted by B5 and Earthforce
Earthforce: Kill B5 and Minbari, are hunted by Narn and Minbari
Babylon 5: Kill Centauri and Minbari, are hunted by Earthforce and Unaligned
Centauri: Kill unaligned and Narn, are hunted by B5 and Narn
Narn: Kill Earthforce and Narn, are hunted by Minbari and Centauri
Unaligned: Kill Centauri and B5, are hunted by Minbari and Centauri

This can't be right, as the Minbari and Centauri WC's would be exactly the same, and you have the Narn committing suicide.

[armlx]

I'm bothered that KoC knows about Kinetic's plan, but doesn't claim his race.

This.

[armlx]

WTF is going on.....

[armlx]

I'm looking back at DGB's last posts, then I realized she also lied/fucked up her WC.

If KoC doesn't claim, he should be lynched. If he does claim, it should still be strongly considered as he has posted since returning and still hasn't. Otherwise, one of the liars or likely liars (read: DGB, farside, veerus) should probably be lynched.

[armlx]

cr3t1n's last post was a slight improvement. I could read the first part without effort.

There is a town in this game BTW. There HAS to be an uninformed majority, or its not mafia.

[armlx]

God, I make 1 post referencing cr3t1n's existence in response to a semi-legible post, then this bull shit.

[armlx]

God, I make 1 post referencing cr3t1n's existence in response to a semi-legible post, then this bull shit.

Yeah, I noticed that too. I am about 40% sure that he's doing it on purpose. I can't imagine anyone typing this poorly because they can't do better.

I agree, and feel this is an issue that if I was mod I would take up with him on threat of forced replacement out of the game.

[armlx]

Someone else who has a better understanding of the speculative math should lay out whats going on.

[armlx]

Wrong veerus. We can also narrow down who would be lying according to said theory, and work from there under the assumption someone is lying and as town would have no reason to do so.

[armlx]

Who do you think is more scummy, Farside or Theinternet?

TheInternet is more likely to be scum due to Farside being semi-confirmed non-town on symmetry, but Farside has been acting more anti-town.

[armlx]

I'm still wary of assuming even distributions as such.

[armlx]

I love how the town are forced to keep the non-towns alive. If you lynch the anti-scums, then the game goes from a scumhunt to a racehunt.

Since when is that remotely true?

[armlx]

Vote HP

Its so nice when things are that easy.

[armlx]

Kinetic, I know you don't like me trying to attach the theme to everything, but this IS a Babylon 5 themed game. Roles were made with at least some connection to the series.

But designing the set up so it is breakable via theme knowledge is not balanced, and you aren't accounting for that.

[armlx]

Also, the cops in this game might have 50%(or less!) success chance. It makes sense as there are more than one in this game.

Lol. Falling back on untold %age chances.

Hint: NEVER in a well designed game will there be a role that has a %age chance of failure. Maybe a MUP (%age chance of 1 of X things), but never a pass fail %age.

[armlx]

And you're ignoring the mod. So I'm ignoring you.

This. Cretin needs to post in actual English and not be (as per the rules) a jackass.

[armlx]

If I could, there would be three (four even, considering anti-symmetries)kills last day.

RB's, docs, NK immune people, double kills, etc say otherwise.

OR you are just lying about being anti-Vorlon and are actually straight up scum.

[armlx]

so i fink we shud pressure theinternet n mafiassk

I fink u shud spek en narmul inglush.

Just saying.

And Veerus, SSK and emp are always like this.

[armlx]

If there was a vig in this game, SSK would be dead last "night". If there is an active cop/info role, odds are SSK is a high profile target.

That's how dead weight like him is resolved. Eventually, it may even become a mod meta to not let him into games until he shows improvement.

[armlx]

Nyeh, some people might not kill him and actually look for scummier targets. But, that's a route we don't want to go down.

True, and I guess the faction thing might influence people to make the incorrect town play otherwise.

[armlx]

True, and I guess the faction thing might influence people to make the incorrect town play otherwise.

But, remember, D1 was a bit crazy anyway. There were more targets for a protown vig than just SSK.

True.

[armlx]

BUSDRIVER
OR
TARGET SWITCHER

Y RNT U FINKING ABOUT THEM?

Corner case.

[armlx]

I'm still not sold on even distributions within each race.

I'm still not sold on Malth being 100% cleared.

I'm still not sold on gunsmith necessarily being a town ability (Xyl's Smalltown).

[armlx]

Doesn't that mean an easily breakable game?

Then it's just a matter of mechanically going through the motions.

Well, I'm assuming there's a curveball somewhere. But I don't think it's with TI.

Why?

[armlx]

What I dont see is why the perfect balnce theory should stick. I have seen very feew (if any) games where each player had thhesekind of similarities.

This.

[armlx]

I don't see why hp isn't dead yet. He has what amounts to a claimed guilty on him.

[armlx]

I'm not sure what there is to investigate.

And I agree Malth should have waited, if only because now he is assured to be heavily targeted if he is town and a longer wait would mean more info.

[armlx]

I don't see why hp isn't dead yet. He has what amounts to a claimed guilty on him.

His scumbuddies are backing off bus'ing and going after The Internet? Just a guess.

Seems like a fair guess to me.

[armlx]

Actually, DGB, to be fair, the obv partner is fl, Kinetic believing his theory is just more likely then him unbussing.

[armlx]

Mana Ku would say all that given how obvious it will be she is obv scum once HP flips scum.

I don't see your point about what DGB and myself are saying....

[armlx]

And why is that?

Notice broken symmetry much?

So, I don't see how it's helpful to the towns to speculate about the alignments.

Why? HP has essentially a guilty result on him.

As for an example of it, go find any game where someone had a guilty result on someone or similar early on that I was in.

[armlx]

And I don't think hpleaves is lying

Why?

[armlx]

I think its safer to lynch the claimed gunsmith than the claimed cop tough.

Its safer to lynch the person claiming the guilty then the person the guilty is on?

........

[armlx]

Actually on third thoughts... I don't like a lynch of either of them yet.

Malthusis: did your PM mention hp leaves by name?

unvote

I can already see where this is going.....

[armlx]

If dybeck says Bus driver I'm voting HP.

That was my point.....

[armlx]

Although... I wonder if Malt is paranoid...

Doubt it?

[armlx]

Although... I wonder if Malt is paranoid...

Doubt it?

*shrug* just a thought

Not worth considering given the info we had. If we had some other reason to think so (ie multiple guilties, 0 innocents) its worth it, but not off 1 guilty.

[armlx]

Wait, wtf, Malth was lying about his result but not role?

Wait, let me guess, Narn has to kill EF.......

[armlx]

Wait, wtf, Malth was lying about his result but not role?

Wait, let me guess, Narn has to kill EF.......

Why would he lie about his result?

From what I see, HP was not lying at all.

Is resolving the Earthforce scenario right now what we really want to do? Wouldn't it be safer to leave that choice for the end if we are going for a combined win? I especially believe this given my doubts about the full symmetry of the set up.

Make Nat use his vig on PT/Mac tonight, lynch someone, leave a 1 Earthforce buffer so there's no random other kill for some reason?

[armlx]

And Kinetic, Rule 3.

[armlx]

TheInternet is so obviously scum, its not even funny.

[armlx]

Wait, so...

Vote TheInternet

Leaves us the greatest buffer, most obviously scum both with and without the theory applying, etc.

[armlx]

OH, and that's all assuming Nat shoots Mac. Rather force him to use his kill that way then let him just kill an EF and bring the game that close to a non-AOL WC being achieved.

[armlx]

Armlx, what if Nat's vig kill doesn't go through? We leave a claimed scum alive.

Please explain how your plan is good for the rest of us.

Your reactions are bizarre to say the least.

If Nat's vig kill doesn't go through, we lynch Macavity. The main point is I want to leave the game as far away from a random kill coming from someone leading to the Minbari just winning for no reason, as well as the whole if we lynch EF incorrectly AOL has to manipulate lynch order away from a scum so Minbari don't win, and that's all assuming Kinetic is right. If he isn't we just dig ourselves into a hole where we think we have the last scum in the last EF, and then we lynch them and guess what, Minbari win, it wasn't an even set up.

[armlx]

Wait, I'm just confused I think.

After Macavity, is there another Narn alive?

How many Earthforce are left?

Its 0 and 2 right?

[armlx]

@armlx: you have failed to explain how leaving a claimed scum alive one more night benefits YOU.

It forces Nat to use his vig kill on someone that we would lynch anyways, rather then a "random" EF person, thus keeping him further away from his racial WC?

Do you think that Mac being alive tonight will give the scum group he is from an advantage? I don't, if he was a scum RB he would have just claimed RB. I guess he could be the Shadow GF parallel to KoC, which would be the one scenario where its a little awkward assuming he would be NK immune then, but even then the goal of having more control over when Minbari wins is still accomplished.

Unless Nat just vig kills EF anyways..... which he probably will as Minbari WC is easier then AoL at this point given that....

Sigh, lame.

[armlx]

Do you think that Mac being alive tonight will give the scum group he is from an advantage? I don't, if he was a scum RB he would have just claimed RB.

Didn't both flavor cops get roleblocked? That suggests that roleblockers are scum. Claiming roleblocker would be just as good as claiming scum.

Would it?

Also

Vote Mac

, considering I don't trust Nat to make the pro-AOL decision regardless of Mac being alive or not.

[armlx]

DGB, I just realized a couple pages ago your WC for Unaligned was wrong. Its kill Centauri + B5 (I think I said this a while ago). So something there is wrong on top of that.

Also, Kinetic, if there's no dead B5 scum, and every other group has 3 people, how can Emp be AOL and your theory be correct?

[armlx]

Another thing. The AOL member from B5 is dead. There were 2 AOL's in B5??? Is that what you're saying, Kinetic?

Empking is AoL. Confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt. That may get me killed though so you damn well better kill VisMajor because if the theory holds he's scum.

That was what I was wondering.

[armlx]

Another thing. The AOL member from B5 is dead. There were 2 AOL's in B5??? Is that what you're saying, Kinetic?

Empking is AoL. Confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt. That may get me killed though so you damn well better kill VisMajor because if the theory holds he's scum.

There was always 2 AoLs in B5, even if my theory held.

But your theory didn't factor in the no factioness of the neutrals.

So, either the WC's are unbalanced, your theory is wrong, or Emp is lying about being B5.

[armlx]

WTF, why I am I voting RandomGem?

Unvote, vote Macavity

I thought I did that earlier.

You forgot the unvote earlier. - Tar

[armlx]

Thar, I never voted Randomgem in the first place though....

[armlx]

Told you.

And what happened to my kill on the last night?

[armlx]

Really good set up. Not sure if the AOL/Shadow/Vorlon WC's were ever going to happen though.

[armlx]

I think I need to play more games with armlx. It seems like he pisses me off every time he's scum. And when he isn't he doesn't Very Happy.

To be fair, in the last game like that I was on the one outer of acting as such.

[armlx]

- The Mafia were already in a bad position to start with and compounded this with horrible play, especially with regards to kills (I don't get the dybeck I, dybeck II, and Darox kills in particular).

A doc protect on Kinetic was assumed and feared. I knew about the bluff in Freaktown, and just assumed the odds of him being protected were high enough to make killing him a poor option.

Darox was more or less my choice. I looked at the player list, saw who I felt was most likely to be a threat to us play skill in the abstract, and said target him. In retrospect I should have realized there was no way in hell the game was ending via our faction WC and tried to lean the kill towards someone who would help fulfill my race WC, probably RG as the confirmed townie.