Mafia 86 - mafia.gif - Game Over!

[curiouskarmadog]

So why don't you vote him, then? Suspicious...

unvote, vote Skitzer

this is not a random vote...please explain to me HOW this is a random vote or how you indicated it was random...and so that I understand you..you are implying that we have provided the same amount of input into this game?

[BlakAdder]

My vote was random. You can relax.

I declared my vote random here, after Skitzer asked me and everyone voting him to tell whether our votes were serious or not.
I'm not saying that, it just doesn't look like you've been contributing much.

[skitzer]

curiouskarmadog, you seem to have a problem with people random voting me. Care to expound upon?

[curiouskarmadog]

is that the only thing you got out of my post to Blak, skitzer?

will

unvote, revote Cybele

for now...though you are being watched.

[BlakAdder]

Well, what else do you want me to say? I answered all of your questions.

[Tarhalindur]

Do I have to explain again why I am not scum, Thar?

If by "explain again why I am not scum" you mean "explain again why I am not scum in a manner that is, unlike my original defense, logically sound while answering the points that two players are making about me", then yes.

[Tarhalindur]

@PT: you have yet to address my post 150. Please explain your flip-flopping.

Theres no flip-flopping.
Theres a difference between defending him and only pointing out that if he has a goon status and a Saddam-Sattan avatar

we should think twice before wagoning/lynching him.

I understand he could be scum. Ive played with newbies before but newbies ARE MORE PRONE to scumtells.
Thats all ive been saying in this freaking game and NO ONE seems to understand.

The underlined portion of your sentence, which you used to describe your position on Stef, is a textbook definition of defense. Why do you persist in saying that you are not defending Stef?

And if someone should be lynched it must be him and not me because what I did (as some people call "defending" HAS ZERO MOTIVATION as scum.

Either you're ignorant or this is a bald-faced lie. There are perfectly good reasons why scum would want to defend Stef in this situation

regardless of his alignment

. If you are scum and Stef is your partner, then the logical reason why you are defending Stef is that you are trying to prevent your scum partner from getting lynched. If you are scum and Stef is town, then the logical reason why you are defending Stef is that you are trying to buddy up to Stef in the hope that he will think you town and/or be more willing to think that you are on the right track (allowing you to guide his vote onto townies).

[Tarhalindur]

unvote vote BlackAdder

votes Skitzer when skitzer gets heat.

comes in and throws suspicion on Pop and Stef, when they are getting heat.

vote count comes out with Pop leading, he votes Pop.

I dont mind bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagon day 1, but this looks like he is trying act like he is participating, while adding nothing knew, scum hunting, or asking any questions.

Because you're trying to shift suspicion off of Stef, and along with Stef voting you, it looks like scum distancing.

Now Pop is "scummy" because he is attempting to deflect a Stef wagon, but he is also scummy because Stef is voting him. These are all silly stretches.

What are your current thoughts on Cybele, tar, skitzer, armlx, and now myself. Do you have a completed game where you were scum that you can provide a link for?...a good link when you were town and felt like you played well?

CKD, I have some questions for you.

Do you think populartajo is scum? Why or why not?
Do you think Stef is scum? Why or why not?
Do you think skitzer is scum? Why or why not?

<snip>

Erratus Apathos: In 245 you accuse CKD of "textbook chainsawing". I know two definitions for chainsawing and neither of them apply here. Could you clarify, please?

<snip>

I have a comment to make here, but I want Erratus to answer your question before I say anything on the subject.

[Tarhalindur]

First, a follow-up:

Ooba: continues to go only after me even if he has so little to go with. That tells me he either doesn't have any other leads on any1 else or he's trying to get more people to vote for a person who posted something that in some people's eyes is a scumtell. You haven't bothered to look at other players as well. What are your 3 top suspects and what are your arguments against them?

I have some comments to make here, but I will let Ooba respond to you first.

Now that ooba has answered...

1) I'm seeing a huge logical flaw in this post. You were ignoring the possibility that a town ooba simply thought that you were the player in the game who was most likely to be scum, in which case the correct play for him to make would be to try to convince other players that you are scum in order to get you lynched.

I find it interesting, however, that ooba did not explicitly use this line of reasoning in his answer. I'm noting his reply for later review.

Second:

he has a goon status and a Saddam-Sattan avatar we should think twice

You keep using that card after even i have told you it's a bad one.

Why do I get the nagging suspicion that this post is an attempt to guide a buddy?

Now, why are you asking this question?

I wanted to fill in some gaps in your "scumdar" ( which i presume is somewhat of a "radar" for scum ) and your priority changes.

The question about ooba and armlx had as purpose to let us know your status on the two. This info does help me because it helps knowing who you think is innocent considering i don't think that trusting anyone is a good idea and that it doesn't really help the town.

Interesting answer. The first part is the logically consistent answer I was expecting (forcing me to take a stand on armlx and ooba increases the chances of exposing inconsistencies in my position, and if, for the sake of argument, I turn out to be scum, my positions on other players would be useful for finding connections).

The second part of the answer is bad logic: knowing who a player thinks is town is actually a benefit for the scum, as it allows them to kill the player who is generally thought of as towniest, and the "trust no one" comment is a newb fallacy (I should know - I thought the same thing when I first started playing).

[icmode]

Instead of "trust no one", which can lead to crippling doubt from trying to keep in mind how every player could be scum, I prefer to use "be careful who you trust, and double-check your conclusions" as it allows you to focus on a few players who you think are far more likely to be scum than everyone else.

Also, while I'm in IC mode: your presumption about scumdar is correct.

[/icmode]

Since your scumminess relies on the assumption that you and tajo are partners, you'll be partially cleared if tajo flips town.

I have no connection to Tajo. I have no idea why he started the "defense" case and i don't agree with it. I think that makes him suspicious.

For now switching my vote to Tajo since his continuous posts about me being a newbie and defense is scummy. If i die and flip town he could easily say "hey i defended him when none of you have!" and try to clear himself.

Vote Populartajo

... Why do I smell bussing?

FoS: Stef

[populartajo]

THAR STOP PUSHING THIS STUPID CASE. EITHER YOU ARE SCUM OR YOU ARE JUST A HORRIBLE PLAYER.

The case on me is based in a bulshit assumption that I am defending Stef, who you assumed he was scum.

THE ONLY THING I WAS SAYING IS THAT HE HAS A GOON STATUS AND A SADAM/SATAN AVATAR. THEREFORE HES A NEWBIE. THEREFORE HES MORE PRONE TO MAKE SCUMTELLS. THEREFORE ITS IDIOTIC TO JUMP AGAINST HIM WITH SUCH SECURITY IN PAGE 5 OF A GAME WHEN NOT EVEN ALL THE PLAYERS HAD POSTED.
IF ARMLX THE EXPERIENCED HAD MADE THAT SCUMTELL I WOULD TOTATLLY HAVE VOTED FOR HIM. BUT I WOULDNT HAVE DONE THAT FOR STEF THE NEWBIE. I HAVE TO THINK TWICE BEFORE VOTING HIM. IF HE WAS NEWBIE SCUM THEN PRETTY SURE HE WOULD CONFIRM HIS STATUS LATER IN THE GAME.

Thats the only thing I said. Armlx and you are making a big case out of this. My commentary was just to BRING MY OPINION to the game and ITS MOTIVATED TO PREVENT NOT OPTYMAL WAGONS.

And I repeat, theres no motivation for scum to do that. If you think I was scum siding with a townie then what a horrible and idiotic play because I derailed a perfect wagon to bring all the attention to me. If you think scum defending scumpartner, then the person you should voting is him, not me.

The bussing theorys are shit shit shit. You think you found two scum in one day? YOU KNOW THIS GAME ISNT THAT EASY.

IF YOU WANT ME TO CLAIM NOW AND AVOID THIS STUPID CONVERSATION JUST TELL ME.

[sekinj]

@pt: You already claimed vanilla town because you were bored... remember? are you going to do your doctor claim now that people have caught on that you are scum?

[Erratus Apathos]

wow, been playing this game for over a year...never heard the term chainsawing..please define.

Chainsawing: Attacking a player (BlakAdder) in a manner that discourages their attack on a third player (populartajo).

Now that BA's had a chance to defend himself, I'll go into more detail.

1. CKD rips out the context of BA's wagon hops.

unvote vote BlackAdder

votes Skitzer when skitzer gets heat.

comes in and throws suspicion on Pop and Stef, when they are getting heat.

vote count comes out with Pop leading, he votes Pop.

I dont mind bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagon day 1, but this looks like he is trying act like he is participating, while adding nothing knew, scum hunting, or asking any questions.

CKD makes a fair bit of effort to show that BA jumped on popular wagons, conveniently ignoring his reasons for getting on those wagons, in an effort to label him a wagon-hopper. This comes off as disingenuous and opportunistic, and not at all like legitimate scumhunting.

2. CKD attacks BA for logical fallacies regarding Tajo.

Because you're trying to shift suspicion off of Stef, and along with Stef voting you, it looks like scum distancing.

Now Pop is "scummy" because he is attempting to deflect a Stef wagon, but he is also scummy because Stef is voting him. These are all silly stretches.

This section attempts to show that BA is wrong. Actually, it doesn't even do that; it only says that BA is wrong, but bear with me. Showing that he's wrong is fine, but it does dick-all to show that he's

scum

. Why, then, did CKD attack him for being wrong? Discrediting the Tajo attack is a pretty good guess.

3. CKD focuses on the weakest link.

What's CKD's opinion on Tajo, or the rest of the Tajo wagon? He didn't say anything about them. He put the spotlight on the "silly stretches", ignoring the real case.

These three things all together tell me that he's trying to chainsaw on behalf of Tajo.

[Erratus Apathos]

Tajo, you done stalling yet? Or do you still need more time to think up believable answers for these questions:

So, uhh...how exactly does

claiming vanilla

alleviate boredom?

Also, how does Stef's avatar make him more likely to be a newb?

[Tarhalindur]

THAR STOP PUSHING THIS STUPID CASE. EITHER YOU ARE SCUM OR YOU ARE JUST A HORRIBLE PLAYER.

The case on me is based in a bulshit assumption that I am defending Stef, who you assumed he was scum.

THE ONLY THING I WAS SAYING IS THAT HE HAS A GOON STATUS AND A SADAM/SATAN AVATAR. THEREFORE HES A NEWBIE. THEREFORE HES MORE PRONE TO MAKE SCUMTELLS. THEREFORE ITS IDIOTIC TO JUMP AGAINST HIM WITH SUCH SECURITY IN PAGE 5 OF A GAME WHEN NOT EVEN ALL THE PLAYERS HAD POSTED.
IF ARMLX THE EXPERIENCED HAD MADE THAT SCUMTELL I WOULD TOTATLLY HAVE VOTED FOR HIM. BUT I WOULDNT HAVE DONE THAT FOR STEF THE NEWBIE. I HAVE TO THINK TWICE BEFORE VOTING HIM. IF HE WAS NEWBIE SCUM THEN PRETTY SURE HE WOULD CONFIRM HIS STATUS LATER IN THE GAME.

Thats the only thing I said. Armlx and you are making a big case out of this. My commentary was just to BRING MY OPINION to the game and ITS MOTIVATED TO PREVENT NOT OPTYMAL WAGONS.

And I repeat, theres no motivation for scum to do that. If you think I was scum siding with a townie then what a horrible and idiotic play because I derailed a perfect wagon to bring all the attention to me. If you think scum defending scumpartner, then the person you should voting is him, not me.

The bussing theorys are shit shit shit. You think you found two scum in one day? YOU KNOW THIS GAME ISNT THAT EASY.

IF YOU WANT ME TO CLAIM NOW AND AVOID THIS STUPID CONVERSATION JUST TELL ME.

First: For the sake of argument, let's assume that your actions towards Stef do not constitute defense. What, then, do you consider defense? Please, enlighten me.

Second: If it does turn out that you are scum buddying up to a newb townie, it's not my fault that the play backfired horribly on you.

Oh yes, and I forgot the other obvious reason why scum might defend a newb townie: 1) if/when Stef comes turns out to be town, you would look better for taking the correct stance on that wagon.

(Also, the whole "there's no reason why scum would do that" is 100% unadulterated WIFOM.)

Third: The logical problem with your argument that I consider both situations plausible - I believe that you are likely to be scum REGARDLESS of Stef's alignment.

Consider a simplified situation: If we had two players (Player A and Player B), of which at least one was scum, and we knew that the only two possible outcomes were "Player A and Player B are both scum" and "Player A is scum and Player B is town" and each option had nonzero probability, then the best play is clearly to lynch Player A, as lynching Player A has a 100% probability of lynching scum and lynching Player B has a less than 100% probability of lynching scum. This logic holds in more complex situations so long as the probabilities of "Player A is town and Player B is scum" and "Player A and Player B are both town" is small compared to the two probabilities mentioned previously.

Fourth: Page 11 of a very active Day 1 is easily enough time for bussing to begin to appear, especially with a major wagon active (see Random Mafia 3 in general and killa seven's play in that game in particular, as the reason why I suspect that Stef may have been bussing is due to the similarity to killa's play in Random 3).

Fifth: I ask for claims at L-2. Unless I failed a spot check, you are not yet at L-2. (Also, didn't you claim you were a vanilla townie?)

[Tarhalindur]

<snip>

Erratus Apathos: In 245 you accuse CKD of "textbook chainsawing". I know two definitions for chainsawing and neither of them apply here. Could you clarify, please?

<snip>

I have a comment to make here, but I want Erratus to answer your question before I say anything on the subject.

Now that Erratus Apathos has defended himself...

Chainsaw Defense (Tarhalindur Version)

The general form of this tell is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum".

The key to identifying this tell is intent - it is possible to confuse Chainsaw Defense with a player who simply finds the attacker scummy and has no intent of defense. In general, you can be reasonably sure that this tell is involved if a) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense has not previously been especially critical of the player he is now attacking, and b) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense seems to find the player he is supposedly defending at least reasonably pro-town.

Let's see... by attacking BlakAdder for attacking populartajo CKD is indirectly defending populartajo, and CKD seems to find populartajo less scummy than other players. Looks like a textbook case of Chainsaw Defense to me...

[Empking]

wow, been playing this game for over a year...never heard the term chainsawing..please define.

Chainsawing: Attacking a player (BlakAdder) in a manner that discourages their attack on a third player (populartajo).
.

I'd like to say, that's basicly how I've heard it used.

So Pop, you did not only claim vanilla townie early you want use to believe your town and false claimed vanilla townie.

[ooba]

populartajo, posting in caps really does not help. I would like to see a claim ..

Jebus, why aren't you posting in this game while you post in the others?

[ShadowGirl]

And if someone should be lynched it must be him and not me because what I did (as some people call "defending" HAS ZERO MOTIVATION as scum.

I was liking your post until this. You seem to be trying to deflect attention back to Stef.

Easy on the caps, Taj. And scum wouldn't do that is WIFOM. and once again you say:

If you think scum defending scumpartner, then the person you should voting is him, not me.

As if you're completely fine with Stef getting lynched. And really, I'm more suspicious of you then I am of him.

populartajo, posting in caps really does not help. I would like to see a claim ..

A claim? Isn't it a bit early for a claim? :/ I also go by L-2 being an acceptable time for a claim.

[armlx]

Tar, I don't see the CKD thing as chain saw on PT, if anything its for Skitzer. I also feel that tell doesn't really apply in general scenarios like this.

Also,

Unvote, Vote PT

. I want a claim now.

[Stef]

However, Stef still has some questions to answer

Seem to have missed a few then. What questions?

[Haschel Cedricson]

Seem to have missed a few then. What questions?

I meant that as of post 126, you were being asked questions. Sorry for using present tense to refer to past events.

Anyhoo, I find it odd that PT has now offered to claim "for real this time", because if he actually was a powerrole I don't see why he would draw so much attention on himself that could easily result in a mislynch.

[Stef]

Why do I get the nagging suspicion that this post is an attempt to guide a buddy?

I'm not sure why. Even if all of the players, including me, have repeatedly told him that his arguments are flawed he still goes ahead with them and even repeats them in #259. That, i think, is explained by his lack of actual arguments except the ones he keeps on stating. The caps writing indicates he's getting anxious either because he's town and he's seeing himself under more and more pressure or because he's scum and he's seeing himself under more and more pressure. I tend to lean towards the second variant putting into account his up till now posting.

... Why do I smell bussing?

Because you see a connection between me and him based only on his play and now that i vote him due to the fact that i voted him you either find a confirmation of your suspicion by calling it bussing or me actually voting for who i think is most suspicious exactly because of his scummy posting. That would be my guess anyway.

[populartajo]

OF COURSE IM A POWER ROLE. I WOULDNT BE FIGHTING THIS HARD IF I WERE VANILLA.
ITS THE SAME FOR ME. LYNCH ME OR LET SCUM KILL ME TONIGHT.
I PLAYED HORRIBLY I RECOGNIZE BUT ALL THE PEOPLE IN MY WAGON SIMPLY CANT BE SCUM AND JUMP AGAINST ME EVEN THOUGH IVE EXPLAINED WHY I AM NOT SCUM.
I AM A DOCTOR.
DO WHATEVER YOU WANT GUYS. IM DONE.

[ShadowGirl]

Uh, regardless of role you should fight hard. :/

[BlakAdder]

I don't know about everyone else, but these freakouts pretty much confirm it for me. That and the fact that he said he was a power role, but didn't bother to actually say what.