Babylon 5 Mafia: Severed Dreams - Over

[Natirasha]

...and so it begins...

Vote: Forbiddanlight for voting the mod which offers absolutely no information to the other players of this town... or space station as the case may be.

Because I've only done this in every OTHER game I have played at least since Mini 630. Even if I did random vote I doubt you'd get much from it.

It's the principle of the matter. You vote for the only person in the thread who is not a player and who can not be lynched. The fact that mods even allow you to do this is completely ridiculous.

Um...have you ever read a Tarhalindur game? Seriously?

Vote: Natirasha

. He needs to kill town.

[Natirasha]

I dont think second guessing the mod, or trying to figure out the setup is productive.
That said, forbiddan seems very keen on people FOSing a lot.

In Tar games, second guessing the mod appears to be the norm. Ah, maybe I'm getting too into Mind Screw mode.

And in some tar games, most notably the Mind Screw game, FoS' did things.

I doubt this is anywhere near as mind screwy as those games. I think FoSes don't do anything and suggest we move on.

However, this time, we should lynch any survivors we find.

[Natirasha]

When the hell was lynching any survivor claim NOT the default.

I won Mind Screw 2 as an SK off the back of a Survivor Rolecop Lover Mason claim.

[Natirasha]

I suppose I should

Unvote

for now.

[Natirasha]

SSK is probably the definition of a policy lynch.

But policy lynches are only "optimal" in the absence of actually scummy behavior.

Not me?

[Natirasha]

Yah, seriously I agree with PT.

[Natirasha]

Fine then, let's do something interesting.

My role implies that there are at least two survivors in this game. I want them to come forward and tell me why I shouldn't kill them right now

[Natirasha]

@Nat: Why do you think they'll come forward and why should I believe you?

Because.

And why shouldn't they believe me.

[Natirasha]

@Everyone: Are you sure survivors aren't nessecaily 'true' survivors in this game? I'm thinking they probably have more conditions to win.

@Nat: I think I have a reason for you saying what you did, you probably have a win condition that says kill all survivors.

Yes. And it seems extensively easier than my other win condition, so I want them to tell me why I should try working on my other win condition and not this one.

[Natirasha]

Unvote, Vote: Kinetic

Fos: Cybelle

So...let me understand your logic, Kinetic...your voting me because...wait...your voting me because...your voting me because I want to win?

[Natirasha]

First of all, I am tentative that there actually is one mafia and one town in this game. I know personally of five alignments, and the fact that each person has two WinCons, I'm calling that there are multiple towns and multiple mafias.

Secondly, I'll save armlx the trouble of pointing out the appeal to emotion from Cybele and the fact that he pulled some pretty blatant WIFOM there.

[Natirasha]

Why is having the survivors out themselves a good idea for them? I see no reason why they'd want to, unless they feel especially generous. (I can see it now: "sure, I'll probably die, but doing this will help someone in an entirely different faction win! Yay!") Also: why are we trusting Nat?

If this isn't WIFOM, I don't know what is.

Empking: What do you want me to explain more fully?

[Natirasha]

SWhat the alignments are.

Cybele; About your last point. why would non-survivors care about benefits to survivors?

I see no point in revealing that information yet.

[Natirasha]

Do you have a reason I should reveal that information?

[Natirasha]

Do you have a reason I should reveal that information?

Can we PLEASE give him a reason to reveal information that is very beneficial to the town?

Also, I pose this question to the town: Day 1, what alignment would most likely HAVE this much information?

First of all, how many alignments are in your role PM?

[Natirasha]

vote: Cybele

While I can understand, would you like to explain this?

[Natirasha]

Yes, Kinetic, what is thee actual name of the town, Kinetic?

[Natirasha]

And why would I say it so that you could copy me scum?

You pose this question to me, while it holds far more truer to you.

However, I will pose this question to the town.

How many of you know the "town" faction of this one, or how many of you actually believe there is one.

[Natirasha]

Busy today, and I think I'm approaching 72 hours, so here's my post to avoid a second prod and remind people I'm still here. Barely. >.>

I don't support a massclaim, but also don't think Kinetic is scummy just for suggesting one... I think town is just as likely to want one. Town is the

uninformed

majority, after all...

2 things.

1. There is no town in this game.
2. Are you seriously trying to use that as reasoning?

[Natirasha]

I'm saying there is no town in this game because each alignment wants someone else dead. Ergo, there is no town. Just people who want other people dead.

[Natirasha]

For the record, I have a similar WinCon to the army of light one, although it is not that one exactly.

I have the anti-shadow win condition, which is to destroy all shadow operatives and to kill all survivors.

Additionally, my other Win Condition also has Narn as a team I must kill. I will keep the specific name quiet until I must.

However, my alignment is not any of the ones listed in RandomGem's PM, which leads me to believe there are...at minimum, 7 alignments in the game right now.

Ergo, I believe it is safe to assume that the Shadow Operatives and possibly Narn are the "informed minorities" in this game, and are who we should be looking for.

Agree/disagree?

[Natirasha]

Oh, and I suspect that we have some crazy crazy bandwagoning going on right now.

[Natirasha]

Fucking god. Seriously?

Look, you have to think of this game in terms of uninformed majority-informed minority, not Town-Scum.

However, I'm going to claim.

I am Naroon, Vanilla Anti-Shadow/Minbari Mutator. Each day, I gain a different power. Today, I am untargetable.

My win conditions are these.
Anti-Shadow: Kill all shadow operatives and survivors.
Minbari: Kill all EarthForce and Narn players.

If the "Army of Light" is the biggest uninformed majority, then getting rid of me is a bad idea. As I said, I think killing survivors and shadow operatives is easier than finiding EF and Narn. And, who knows, I might get a more useful power eventually.

Look, in this game, you do not have to lynch everyone not of your alignment, only those that you need to kill for your win condition. Ergo, it is useless to lynch me unless you need Minbari dead.

[Natirasha]

Why am I reminded RUDELY of Mind Screw by that claim? "Oh, I get super powers, keep me alive town". We aren't KKing it today.

...what? I never claimed to get more powers in MS2. I claimed to be an ability cop(which was partially true), and a survivor(which was also partially true). The whole Lover-Mason thing was because I thought Malthy had Inversion.

[Natirasha]

Well, I was talking about my ability cop ability...

[Natirasha]

Forbiddan, I just said this: There is no town. Although the largest uninformed majority is the Army of Light, apparently, that doesn't change the fact that there is no true "town". We have seen at least seven alignments(Army of Light, Anti-Shadow, Minbari, Shadow, Narn, Survivor, and EarthForce), and I'm fairly sure that at least three of those are uninformed majorities.

[Natirasha]

I disagree with Kinetic's plan, but it really doesn't matter since I've already claimed.

I do request a full claim of him if we go through with this plan then.

[Natirasha]

[quote="Kinetic"First off, Nat is wrong. There are at LEAST 9 win conditions. However, there are only 3 factions. Every body has two types of win conditions, a faction win condition and a race win condition.[/quote]
I agree with this.

I believe that the Army of Light is the town faction. For this to be true than Vorlons and Shadow must be two OPPOSING mafia factions in this game. Since Nat's first win condition ONLY mentions Shadows, then this win condition must be his faction one. I believe this win condition should also mention the Army of Light, but even if it doesn't then it doesn't matter. He is a Vorlon Operative, and as the Army of Light, we must stop him.

One thing to note here is that my role PM does not mention the Army of Light in anyway. If I actually was a Vorlon, wouldn't you think I would know they were the Town faction. I mean, it'd certainly help me out a lot.

Second, I know he is is trying to push the town away from the Army of Light win condition as town.

No, because this game, there is no "town". Army of Light is the largest uninformed majority, but there are other uninformed majorities. I know this. By two seperate means.

He's locking onto the Narn as evil. The Narn aren't inherently mafia in this game.

No, I'm drawing conclusions based on the fact that RandomGem's condition and mine both had the Narn as evil.

All of the race win conditions are RED HERRINGS! They are to put the town at odds with each other so the mafia can win in the chaos. You must ignore these. We must find the Shadow and Vorlon operatives. To do so we must ignore these petty race squabbles.

This is exactly why there is no town in this game. Everyone has a different agenda.

Faction Win Conditions
Army of Light (Town): Defeat Shadows and Vorlon Operatives
Shadow Operatives(Mafia A): Defeat Vorlons and AOL
Vorlon Operatives(Mafia B): Defeat Shadows and AOL
Anti-Shadow: Defeat Shadows and Survivors
Survivor: Survive til the end of the game?

Race Win Conditions
Minbari: Kill Earthforce and Narn, they are hunted by Babylon 5 and Unaligned Worlds
Earthforce: Kill unaligned and Centauri, are hunted by Babylon 5 and Minbari
Babylon 5: Kill Earthforce and Minbari, are hunted by unaligned and Narn
Centauri: Kill unaligned and Narn, are huned by Narn and Earthforce
Narn: Kill Centauri and B5, are hunted by Minbari and Centauri
Unaligned: Kill B5 and Minbari, are hunted by Centauri and Earth force[/quote] Added two more to the factional.

It is just a big circle guys. We're all hunting each other and in the end the scum will win.

Or, you know, we kill the people we need to kill and win that wa`y?

We must ignore these win conditions and work toward the Army of Light win condition. I know you all have it, and if you don't, you're not town.

I suggest to everyone that you work towards both your win conditions.

If there is seven race win conditions then a few of the above race win conditions are wrong, but the circle will still be there I'm sure. The race win conditions are meant to break the town up.

Or, you know, they are alternate win conditions. I pose this question to you, Kinetic. If there are two people to be lynched: One who is slightly less scummy, but mentioned in your second win condition, or the one who is more likely to be Shadow, who do you lynch?

I propose a race claim. I want to know exactly who everyone's race is. I cannot tell you exactly why I want this. Not yet. But I will tell you this: I have no intention of hunting people specifically of their race.

You do realize by doing this race claim, that other people will hunt for the races they need to kill to win. Not everyone thinks the same way as you.

I realize this is similar to my WC claim from earlier, but now that I have all the facts, I'm figured out this game and I'm pretty sure I've broken it, I just need a little more information to put my plan into action.

Or, you know, your shadow/vorlon and plan on using this information to achieve your racial win condition.

I PROMISE to reveal my entire plan immediately after the race claim, but I need to have the claim before I reveal this final part.

No. Tell us it now.

[Natirasha]

The other one is, as you suspect; the anti-vorlon, the vorlon version of Nat's faction. The reason that I fully believe Nat's claim is that I'm from this faction. If you don't believe me, go on and lynch Nat (or me). Since the role PM's are exposed in the death scene, you'll see that I'm right.

Well, that's one win condition. Can we really trust Nat's other?

Why would two win conditions that have similar structure and be confirmed by the other(i.e. this whole game, I've been targeting survivors) be different?

forbiddan, yes, this is a Tar game, but this is not a Mind Screw game. He is not out to screw us over, he's simply modding. And your flagrant use of meta is not useful either.

[Natirasha]

Why would two win conditions that have similar structure and be confirmed by the other(i.e. this whole game, I've been targeting survivors) be different?

forbiddan, yes, this is a Tar game, but this is not a Mind Screw game. He is not out to screw us over, he's simply modding. And your flagrant use of meta is not useful either.

Mafia Falseclaim.

I'm sorry I'm laying meta on too heavy but I tend to do that apparently. And even if it's not a Mind Screw Game, I highly doubt he'd leave the scum without that ability. Just my personal read.

Look for Tar's first game, Mostly Mountainous. The mafia did not have the Mafia Falseclaim ability.
Malthusis: By rejecting my Anti-Shadow claim, you are also rejecting hp[leaves] Anti-Vorlon claim.

[Natirasha]

Look for Tar's first game, Mostly Mountainous. The mafia did not have the Mafia Falseclaim ability.
Malthusis: By rejecting my Anti-Shadow claim, you are also rejecting hp[leaves] Anti-Vorlon claim.

That also wasn't a theme game, was it? He's also done more games. I think his more recent games are more of an indicator of what he'd do in this game.

Bah, this outguessing the mod is getting us nowhere.

Next, what do you think of hp[leaves] anti-vorlon claim?

[Natirasha]

And stop the bullshit about "don't want to give the scum more information". That's anti-town talk. TOWN are the ones who need to share information, and creating dissent, chaos, and misinformation is the role of scum. Stop acting like scum unless you are, and if so then you're doing a fine job and keep it up.

....Or all the sharing of information just gives the informed minorities a better idea of who to kill? Have you ever even played mafia?

[Natirasha]

Or, you know, people will want to kill the people who are targeted in their WinCons with all the races claimed.

[Natirasha]

But what about, say, a vig? They will mosdef kill their targets to win, you know.

[Natirasha]

Kinetic, don't you think that the Vorlons/Shadows have races too?

[Natirasha]

Also Nat, I'd like to ask you, how is your WC worded? What is the exact term they refer to your enemies as (Shadows)

It is worded as Shadow Operatives.

By the way, Minarbi don't need to kill Narn to win.

Bullshit.

[Natirasha]

Moderator Note: Your moderator made an error when sending Darox his role PM (due to sending an older version of the PM). I apologize for the confusion. - Tar

lol.

[Natirasha]

I don't. It just says Survivors in the plural, so I took an educated guess.

[Natirasha]

I was really considering voting malthusis for that Kinetic vote, but Nat is confirmed non-town so.....

What do you think of hp[leaves] then?

[Natirasha]

What do you think of hp[leaves] then?

Did I miss something with respect to him? I honestly don't remember seeing a post from him in forever.

He claimed the anti-Vorlon win condition.

[Natirasha]

unvote

.

I am fine with Kinetic now that he's explained himself.

[Natirasha]

We can finally lynch scum now

Unvote, Vote Nat

@Knights: What do you think of the events of this game so far? What's your position on the claim?

Notice: 9 days till deadline

What?

I'm sorry, but what's the whole argument against me? That I have a different WinCon that doesn't involve Vorlons, or what?

[Natirasha]

No, it's that we think you and [hp] leaves are lying.

How so?

[Natirasha]

When did we ever say 8 neutrals?

I'm certainly not "neutral", I just have a preference for one mafia

(You hear me, Vorlons?)

. hp is the opposite. I'm fairly sure there is at least one survivor(because there not being one makes us pretty much a strictly easier to win town. That's one(three if you count us, I guess).

[Natirasha]

I'm fairly sure there is at least one survivor(because there not being one makes us pretty much a strictly easier to win town.

This is my issue with your role. Town usually kills survivors anyways.

Yes, but you don't have to kill it to win. I do.

[Natirasha]

Besides hp and Nat there is only one other survivor.

Wait...so because I want to kill survivors, I'm a survivor?

[Natirasha]

Last time there was a 'survivor' claim in a game I was in, that player was scum. Oh, and I remember a mith game where three players claimed survivors and they were scumbuddies.

This is where I've been misquoted numerous times. I have never claimed survivor, nor do I plan to.

HOWEVER, this brings up a point. My WinCon ends the game. If you decide to keep me and hp alive, then you just can't kill survivors.

[Natirasha]

vote: hp[leaves]

Sadly, I don't want to die yet and the town is decidedly against us.

Can we race claim yet? I'm sick of sitting around doing nothing.

[Natirasha]

The game ends when a win condition is fulfilled unless that win condition explicitly says otherwise. A faction need not be alive to fulfill its win condition unless that win condition explicitly says otherwise. - Tar

So that explains a lot. Nat and HP are essentially scum without kills.

Also, we simply have to kill one mafia and kill survivors. Actually, even if you kill me, I think my chances of winning are good.

[Natirasha]

Actually, I'd like Kinetic to start, and move from there.

[Natirasha]

No, we also have to kill all survivors, too. So if you avoid killing the survivors...

[Natirasha]

Lol. I'mma be accidently posting on alts.


Yeah, that's Nati.

[Natirasha]

Nat, you're the only one who wants me to go first, to everyone else its KoC or dybeck, and its SCUMMIEST person goes first. I don't even have any votes on me anymore...

Yes, but I thought you were claiming.

And KoC/dybeck are avoiding posting for a reason.

[Natirasha]

Additionally, since you are so hellbent on lynching hp and I, KoC and dybeck can just avoid joining the claim while you sit here lynching us, while they be blatantly anti-town and avoid death.

[Natirasha]

For the record, I think this plan sucks.

But I suspect I'm going to wagoned to a claim anyway, so I may as well head it off now.

I'm a Narn. KoC needs to go next. He also needs to be heavily voted if he intends to lurk this one out.

I think it's better that we don't all claim at once. I'd rather see this plan go by the wayside than to let the informed minorities get to wait to claim.

lol I can't decide if I should vote for you or Mana_Ku or hp.

[Natirasha]

Hmm? Are you saying that MAna is lying? And WHY NOT SOONER?

No, I'm not sure Mana is lying. He could very well be telling the truth, but I'm not sure yet.

[Natirasha]

No, I'm not sure Mana is lying. He could very well be telling the truth, but I'm not sure yet.

Ok, so why a Mana vote?

I'm not sure. Just something about the post.

[Natirasha]

It sounds like theirs a large amount of b5...

[Natirasha]

From a simple numbers angle, I'd assume one of them is a Centauri and one is a Minbari.

Kinetic, can we continue with the next part of your plan?

[Natirasha]

Emeegency LA. Expect Little of me the next 3 days.

[Natirasha]

Fine. hey, hp, why don't we agree to disagree and both

unvote, vote: KnightsofCydonia

[Natirasha]

Honestly, I think I'm fine with

Vote Natirasha

comparing the claims.

Why are you lynching people that don't actually hurt the town when you could lynch people who actually are scummy and have commited scummy actions, like KoC and SSK?

[Natirasha]

The more I'm looking at it, hp and Nat are willing to help the town find scum. I haven't heard anything like that from Mana_Ku though. Maybe we should be thinking about that...

This actually annoys me, too. Mana_Ku came in and posted "Hey, Nat, I'm your pal!" then proceeds to not do anything like he's done all game. It really is starting to sound very...fake.

unvote, vote: Mana_Ku

[Natirasha]

Um...godamnit. Why do I always have the worst claim?

Somehow, due to the duality of the cops, I can believe Mana_Ku's claim.

unvote, vote: KoC

for being a failboat again.

[Natirasha]

Mana sounds good.

Unvote, vote MAna

claim please before you disappear again.

Unvote; Vote: MafiaSSK

WC or role?

race only

Gaim.

Are you fucking with us?

[Natirasha]

Of the B5s, I think the two Vsc are the most likely as scum.

Way to parrot. I'm watching you.

[Natirasha]

My theory: there are 3 of every race except B5, which there are more of. That means there would be one scum hiding in B5 and another in the narn, and the scum would be centauri and earth force(perhaps the narn is a centauri trying to backstab the narn). Just a theory, and KoC's claim could screw it up.

My Theory: KoC is Centauri/Earthforce. One of the Narn is the other race.

[Natirasha]

If I may ask, can we have any other people with the "Anti-X" WinCons claim. I am a believer that there is two of each, leaving one Anti-Vorlon still out there.
Also, I prefer to think of myself as non-town, not anti-town, tyvm.

[Natirasha]

cr3t1n's last post was a slight improvement. I could read the first part without effort.

There is a town in this game BTW. There HAS to be an uninformed majority, or its not mafia.

I have confirmed the second statement with the mod.

[Natirasha]

Damn it. Need to kill some Shadows.

Oh, hey, I'm the Bus Driver today.

So, I'm going to go out on a large whim here and do some speculating.

Cult of Pacifism-Cult that made people survivors. Assuming such, I'd say we have at most one CoP member left. We kill them and it's simply a race to see who we kill first--shadows, or vorlons.

On another note,

Vote: Farside

. Obviously lied about win condition, Dybeck was the other anti-vorlon.

[Natirasha]

Knight of Cydonia, Vorlon Operative

/Minbari Godfather

, lynched Day 1

Any ideas what to make of this? Because I'm looking intently at the other Minbari right now.

Think of it "Vorlon Operative/Minbari" as win conditions and "Godfather" as role.

[Natirasha]

Oh, hey, I'm the Bus Driver today.

Is that today's ability that Tar sent you?

Yes

[Natirasha]

*betting one B5 survivor*

[Natirasha]

Still thinking Farside is more scum, but w/e

Unvote, vote: Hp

[Natirasha]

I am in deep shit right now, and will be on V/LA, kk.

Consider this for both games, Tar.

[Natirasha]

Before you ask, I did not use my Bus drive powers yesterday--mostly because of this retarded V/LA.

Today, I am a vig. So you know.

[Natirasha]

Vote: poptaj

. It seems that Kinetic's theory is slowly starting to hold water(By that I mean the town-nontown-scum pairing). Unless you want the "anti-X" to gain power and potentially lynch a survivor, I'd lynch him for the sake of testing Kinetic's theory. If PT shows up as town/anti-x, then Kinetic's theory has no salt.

[Natirasha]

I would also like to note that there are two EF alive. Killing Mac will not, in and of itself, end the game for Minbari. Far from it it pretty much makes EF untouchable for anyone who is Minbari.

This, in a nutshell.

Although, I do have a kill. And it should be obvious who I would target. The other EF would be inable of being killed.

However, the doctor, if we have one, shouldn't target the EFs. Instead, they should focus on someone else, and try to convince me which of them is scum. The advantages of having a confirmed-unkillable-townie(that of the livng EF) should be very good for you AoLers. The mafias can't kill them, or Kinetic and I win.

Ergo, the plan for today: lynch Mac(you gotta kill him anyways if you want to win). But we stall just enough to come to a conclusion who is the EF scum, and let me kill them(I say DGB right now).

[Natirasha]

What kind of scum are you?

The Nati General Modding Rules Section 5.3(The Pyrrhic Victory Clause) says that ML is Vorlon and Section 5.2(The Target Acquired Clause) Suggests that the EF scum is Shadow.

[Natirasha]

Plus, no matter what, I still get to vig.

[Natirasha]

I am fine with a joint win, as long as I get a win.

[Natirasha]

Oshi.

Roleblockers.

We gotta think this through. Thanks DGB.

[Natirasha]

DGB: Survivor WinCon is racial-based. Ergo, 2 B5s are actually survivors. The scum survivor was Darox though(he was a Cult Leader), so the other two are AoL, by any indication(not anti-X, since the anti-X WinCon involves survivors).

[Natirasha]

I actually plan on killing EF Scum. As per the "Target Acquired" Theory(You must lynch them, no matter what, if you want to win). I do have 2 WinCons you know.

[Natirasha]

Another thing. The AOL member from B5 is dead. There were 2 AOL's in B5??? Is that what you're saying, Kinetic?

Empking is AoL. Confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt. That may get me killed though so you damn well better kill VisMajor because if the theory holds he's scum.

There was always 2 AoLs in B5, even if my theory held.

But your theory didn't factor in the no factioness of the neutrals.

So, either the WC's are unbalanced, your theory is wrong, or Emp is lying about being B5.

Logic dictates he's a survivor.

[Natirasha]

...Damn you Darox.

I'll explain when I try and figure what I'm trying to say.

[Natirasha]

No prob.

I'm glad I won.

[Natirasha]

Yeah, cult seems very OP in this game.

[Natirasha]

I always get the overpowered roles in Tar games, don't I?