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[Andresvmb]

I’ve tried reading carefully over multiple days, and through Day 1 and through some of Day 2, I have this:

Town
{Dunnstral [Vanilla Town], Nero Cain [Vanilla Town], petapan/cyrus [Vengeful Combined Vigilante Babysitter]}
Strong Lean Town
{ssbm_Kyouko, VFP}
Lean Town
{Dwlee99, T3, Derek12/ChaosOmega [Vanilla Town Claim], Rathe [ItalianoVD]}
Slight Lean Town
{Save The Dragons, Anya}
Neutral / Could Swing Either Direction
{ }
Slight Lean Scum
{Titus [Babysitter Enabler Claim], DGB, Dragon of the West}
Lean Scum
{ }
Scum
{osuka [Mafia Goon], nomnomnom / Vaxkiller [Mafia Informed Compulsive Jailkeeper]}

[Andresvmb]

I think DGB needs to be hard ignored regardless. And I don’t understand the impulse to consolidate on STD here.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah they’ve claimed that. I have also seen Scum claim Friendly Neighbor with a check on another Scum. They’re way too horribly wrong for them to be Town to me.

[Andresvmb]

But frankly if they’re Masons then who is Scum?

[Andresvmb]

And I’m just tired of re-reading this game. It’s way too long for 2 days of gameplay.

[Andresvmb]

Like I’ve read every single word of the first ~1,800 posts and it’s exhausting.

[Andresvmb]

And does 1869 strike you as the post that a Mason makes? I’m not buying that crap at all. But whatever I need to finish reading I guess. Back in like 2 more interminable hours.

[Andresvmb]

Doesn't that mean you haven't even gotten to the part where Cyrus replaced-in, immediately decided to claim the babysitter role thing, and then scum nightkilled him anyway?

Maybe a good line of reasoning here is: who would shoot that as scum?

I was around when that claim happened.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway I don’t want to try and get into the mindset of trying to guess exactly why a group of Scum decided on a particular NK. I just don’t think that’s particularly effective. It’s much better when there’s like 1 Scum left because you can put yourself in every person’s shoes that’s left in the game and see whether it makes sense. You don’t know who is deferring to who in the Scum PT. And that carries more weight than you think.

[Andresvmb]

Also 1369 alone should be reason enough to vote Titus. And I know DotW is defending most of their early positions as just being wrong but 1379 is equally horrifying.

[Andresvmb]

I mean if you're not trying to claim immediately yea.

I still don’t get this. I’ve seen multiple people now over multiple games that suggest that your PR is better than catching a Scum. Just no. If you think someone is claiming your role and you could CC them to death, you do it. So you would want to try and get direct confirmation. Not question the claim in that silly way. But whatever.

[Andresvmb]

I think Andres is the best lim here but people jumped off that wagon. STD is just PoE

And I think you’re Scum so good luck getting your way.

[Andresvmb]

This is absurd. VFP just stop. I get it that you’re half decent when pulling stunts like this and there’s always a chance Rathe was a Scum slot actually, but there’s definitely worse. I don’t get it.

[Andresvmb]

I think at this point I just want someone to flip. But I’m really not convinced Anya is a decent vote.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Andres

At this point I do feel that this is pretty stupid but you do you.

[Andresvmb]

I’m VLA for the next two days. Just FYI. I’ll be back on Sunday.

[Andresvmb]

1) The PT cop claim seems like a fake claim that made sense before scum found out that DGB and I weren't masons

I knew you weren’t Masons and I didn’t have to shoot you for it.

I will say though that the odds that you’re Scum have probably diminished since there’s no point in diminishing your own Claim to weaken your position.

[Andresvmb]

The annoying part about that is that I clearly have a blind spot in my Town Reads. Which means I’m just going to have to read again. And the thought of that is really making me sad hahaha

[Andresvmb]

The odds of me being scum are "diminished"....because we reduced our claim? Not because DGB and I claimed mutual town informed and then they got NKd and flipped town informed?

Actually no I missed that claim. I try and read when I can but life has been busy for me so this has taken a back seat. Sorry.

And if you want to execute me by all means.

[Andresvmb]

I think I need a break in general, but as an overarching point I try and finish every game I sign up for. This one has been hard for me to get into.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t think we should execute a claimed Gunsmith btw just to confirm the results just yet. I’m not getting the logic but my brain is not working properly maybe.

[Andresvmb]

Oh whatever I misread PT Cop for Gunsmith. Sue me. That’s not a slip I mean hahaha I might be unfocused but I’m not an idiot.

[Andresvmb]

Oh whatever I misread PT Cop for Gunsmith. Sue me. That’s not a slip I mean hahaha I might be unfocused but I’m not an idiot.

I don't believe that's a slip (partly because that would kinda implicate me) but I do think the fact you made that mistake is a pretty bad sign for you given you iirc had managed to figure out RLotus was a PR in mini 2213, so to make that sort of mistake seems so off-color for town!you

I also think you know exactly where the mistake is coming from. Since it’s literally your flipped role in a different game. Like I said, I might be unfocused, but I’m not an idiot.

[Andresvmb]

I’m back tonight.

[Andresvmb]

Alright what are we doing.

[Andresvmb]

if im a vig I vig petapan
if I'm an investigation role I target Andre
if I'm a doc I'll protect VPF

This is also reason to think Andre could be scum.

I’m not Scum. So whatever you’re wrong.

[Andresvmb]

So who is scum, Andre?

Look, we know DotW isn’t worth touching. I think you, T3, and Kyouko are Town. And I’m fine with DW though they keep constantly proposing me which fine I’ve sucked this game it happens.

Titus probably needs to eat rope at some point. I probably should too but Titus first. And we can execute Gamma if we collectively feel mechanically it makes sense. I don’t necessarily see Rathe being Scum, but I’ve been tricked by the slot before. That’s where I am.

[Andresvmb]

I’m on a plane for 3 hours. If I find a way to get WiFi I’ll read for those three hours. Otherwise you guys will have to wait on me.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Titus

[Andresvmb]

Welp I was town. Punish Andres for the wolfy pop in.

You’ve had votes on you all day but I’m the one that needs to be punished? That seems pretty silly.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: SSBM

Lim today should be me or SSBM, Gamma checks the other one tonight, and go from there.

This is a pretty terrible vote. If you are going to make this the choice, you’re going to die.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: SSBM

Lim today should be me or SSBM, Gamma checks the other one tonight, and go from there.

This is a pretty terrible vote. If you are going to make this the choice, you’re going to die.

And if I gave a shit about your opinion, that would mean something to me. I am a prime mislim candidate now, being eliminated before I get to LiLo is not the worst thing in the world.

And if scum wouldn't bus their partner yesterday, why would they do it Day 3 with the same amount of scum left?

Is this in reference to you voting Titus D3?

Yes.

You don’t have to give a shit about my opinion. I’m trying to tell you that it’s very possible neither one of you is Scum and you’re focusing on the wrong player.

I’ve been right about Titus for 2 days, and made an argument about their role and how it could easily fit as a Scum role. Kyouko defended me when I could have been executed. That doesn’t make sense coming from Scum.

[Andresvmb]

But if you want to be all abrasive for no good reason well then fuck you and die.

[Andresvmb]

Nero of course deserves credit for that he caught Titus super early. If anything Nero clearly set us on the right path here.

[Andresvmb]

That leaves Dwlee, who I can't really get any support on

Why do you presume this to be the case? You haven’t even asked anyone what their opinions are on the slot.

[Andresvmb]

If you're going to be abrasive for no good reason, you could at least vote me.

Criticizing your vote as terrible is not being abrasive. It’s being truthful. It’s a bad vote. You said you didn’t give a shit about my opinion. That’s personal in a way I wasn’t. So take it down a notch.

[Andresvmb]

I also have been pushing for Titus for a bit, called them Scum repeatedly, built a case against them, and voted them over Town with Scum clearly diminished. But yeah being in the investigative pool also counts I guess.

[Andresvmb]

I agree with your other clears. I also don’t think you box yourself in like this as Scum. Which is why I’m not sure you’re a good vote.

[Andresvmb]

T3 was literally doing nothing I wouldn't kill him.

I'm asking because Andres has this sudden burst of energy that feels weird. Like "oh shit I have to play now cause it's just me."

Pfft I’m never Scum and you should know better. There’s no burst of energy. I just think it’s possible that the last Scum is you and I thought I would share that.

[Andresvmb]

Also this burst of Andres energy happened with town!andres in 2213 iirc

You mean when I had a detailed breakdown of the game and I put forth the Scummiest player in the game and was correct? Yeah, this isn’t that. But still, if nobody wants me to post or cares about my opinion, I can just sheep whoever I think is most competent and that’s it.

[Andresvmb]

Also in this type of situation, whoever has made a lot of mistakes isn’t likely to be Scum in my experience. I firmly believe you need to look for subtler clues.

[Andresvmb]

Titus I can totally see you being town here especially given the FIA WRC game that just ended I'm just like, confused kind of. And my biggest fear here is that the reason I keep getting into these mental ruts is a false assumption on my town reads.

This is the sort of thing that pings me. And it’s the kind of post you need to be super careful about. It’s I’m voting Scum, look at me, but maybe if the Town moves in a different direction, I can rely on this type of reasoning to move away and vote elsewhere. Show me where I gave Titus even a remote opening like this.

[Andresvmb]

But I mean yeah DW has made a lot of correct decisions. So of course this isn’t going to be easy. But you all that just think oh Chaos said they couldn’t understand why Titus was a wagon yesterday, should yeet - I mean, maybe it’s that easy. But someone needs to offer alternatives and try and figure out if we’re going wrong or not.

[Andresvmb]

I mean in this game we let her get away with it, there she was town with a clear on her.

We didn’t let her get away with it - she’s been executed.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Gamma
This just doesn't feel like town!gamma to me.

This vote is bothering me. You tied the wagons here.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Titus
Hammer time

Nope. I was town.

Oof. Dying reads?

UNVOTE:
Well she fell for it enough to act like it was real and say she was town

And she was E-2 before T3's attempt at double voting. Also I knew t3 wanted me to do that.

This sequence is dreadful.

[Andresvmb]

It looks like a planned attempt at getting people to unvote by manufacturing a hammer.

[Andresvmb]

Except I said I thought she was scummy for it.

Only after VFP suggested it.

[Andresvmb]

She was at E-2, no real danger of a quick lim. His pivot after your post VFP looks like trying to cater to you. If you would have said it made Titus look town Dwlee would agree with that as well.

Chaos I think has it right in this post to be honest.

[Andresvmb]

Look I would nuke {Chaos, DW}. I’m never voting VFP or Kyouko or STD. And Gamma will sort itself out.

[Andresvmb]

DotW of course is mechanical.

[Andresvmb]

So your 3863 unvoting her is saying likely scum reaction?

I thought that Titus was at E-1 with my vote which is why I unvoted.

There isn't a strong reason to or not to when I'm clearly okay with yeeting her today.

There isn't a strong reason to or not to when I'm clearly okay with yeeting her today.

I don't understand the wagon on Titus.

Maybe you can explain it for me then. Why is Titus a good lim today?

Nero night kill, defense of nom, pushing the "neighbors," at the beginning of the game pushing the me vs Peta TvT fight, all of the reasons Nero/Peta/Anya were pushing Titus day 1/2/3, play being uninspiring, townread on Osuka and Vax (vax may have fluctuated between null and town I think I need to check), early aligning with the "masons," there is a lot there on rereading parts of day one and two.

You were answering a direct question, and in retrospect Chaos looks bad. But they were pursuing you. Distancing at that stage with Titus under pressure for two days makes sense. STD voted Titus early for example. VFP has too many interactions that don’t make sense from Scum. Hell, around ~#1,800, I called Titus Scum. I think that’s far stronger than some of the things you’re pointing to for yourself. But yeah I don’t know maybe I’m wrong and it’s just Chaos. Like I said, someone needs to play Devil’s advocate every now and then.

[Andresvmb]

I suggest we nuke amongst {Chaos, DW}, Gamma checks the other slot, and we see what happens.

[Andresvmb]

But honestly? I don’t think my voice is going to carry too far here so I am also happy letting {STD, VFP, Kyouko} agree on an execution and I’ll vote there.

[Andresvmb]

I listed 6 nice ways my interactions make no sense if I'm scum and that is the post from me you ignored.

Anya was getting blocked yeah? So their Claim was never going to check out. That created enough paranoia that the Town turned against the slot. Defending the slot, only to then vote it later, isn’t as strong as you think it is as a defense.

[Andresvmb]

Whatever frankly I would have to re-read this game to really make up my mind and I don’t have the time.

So like I said, I am going to sheep players I’m fairly certain are never Scum. If I’m around long enough where this game actually depends on me, I’ll do a deep dive. In the mean time, I don’t think I have to.

[Andresvmb]

The thing that turned the paranoia was the PT cop claim, with which fake claiming being a neighbor looks awful with an informed flip.

I was arguing (as was petapan) from WAY early in the game that by play Anya didn’t make sense as Scum. When push came to shove, I didn’t think it was a good idea and didn’t vote there. Despite whatever you said though, you voted there over Titus. Even though you aggressively defended Anya the day prior. I just don’t see why that makes you Town that’s all. I have also had pings from your slot all game. There’s just something that’s bothering me. But I can’t possibly claim to have read carefully, or even to have analyzed all of the interactions. I’ve read long chunks of the game at different times.

[Andresvmb]

So yeah I can obviously be wrong. I don’t think anyone should trust my judgment here necessarily. But maybe someone else sees what im writing and goes yeah well this is right this isn’t, no you’re wrong no way here’s why, and we achieve clarity.

[Andresvmb]

Most likely, there’s 1 Scum left. I think the Scum have almost certainly lost this by POE. So I really don’t see a rush to execute Chaos and go into the night.

[Andresvmb]

I can understand stuff bothering you because I've been wrong but also do literally any reading of me/vax/Osuka/Titus.

You defended Titus early. And nom3. Your takes have gotten better as the game has progressed. But to me, that’s just Scum that sees game flow and understand flips will happen, and distancing moves need to be made.

[Andresvmb]

For example 822 for Titus or your repeated defenses of nom3 including around 422 or 867. I just have a feeling that you need to be put under a microscope for your early play.

[Andresvmb]

I’ve already explained why defending Anya isn’t as strong as you think.

[Andresvmb]

And you DID defend nom3. Don’t try and wiggle out of that one, you won’t succeed.

[Andresvmb]

I can absolutely admit I put a post out there that demanded nom3 be treated as Town and that anyone voting there was Scum. But what Partner realistically does that? It’s just dumb. But you could call me Scum for it and I wouldn’t be all that offended - I’m a bit horrified by that post still. It’s just that defending players and then voting for them when the winds change is just standard procedure for Scum. Early voters in some of those wagons are more difficult to argue are Scum. But having votes out there for your buddies is key if you want to muddy the waters.

Scum aren’t just going to have defended all of their buddies, and attack only Town in a game this large. You can’t because you should expect one of your buddies at least to flip. So that tends not to happen. But those early takes? Yeah, those are pretty revealing to me.

Anyway, why is Chaos Scum? Did you explain that already? Maybe that helps me.

[Andresvmb]

And again, I'm allowed to be wrong on things. DGB screamed for three days to kill Anya and hard townread nom.

Are you trying to argue DGB is Scum?

[Andresvmb]

I like osuka as town. His inconsistencies are unlikely to be scummy as scum would likely just pick one side or the other.

@T3, How is Rathe different?

my inconsistencies?

Just realized I forgot to answer this and now I can't remember what I was thinking.

maybe you should work on your inconsistencies

And clearly the Scum knew to distance from an early point in the game. Like let’s not pretend that nom3 saying negative things about you somewhat but really going after Nero Cain (and eventually voting there) should clear you.

[Andresvmb]

Though it’s funny, Titus is calling osuka Town and osuka is not taking it entirely. I don’t know what the strategy was from Titus, but the amount of bad early takes were always going to sink them.

[Andresvmb]

Assume Chaos flips Town for a second. What’s the rest of your POE look like?

[Andresvmb]

Okay but they’re voting for Titus in that post. How is that not a straight positive? That’s an early vote for Titus. Arguing it’s TMI is just not a great tactic.

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

You unvoted osuka when they gathered momentum for no good reason after stopping the Anya wagon and constantly asking Titus for their opinion on who to execute. FASCINATING.

[Andresvmb]

Dude if I was scum I'd just ask Titus in my PT not in game thread

What haha no.

[Andresvmb]

I guess Dwlee is happy for us to go back and lim Anya over Osuka at this point?
Otherwise I don't get the unvote.

I guess Dwlee is happy for us to go back and lim Anya over Osuka at this point?
Otherwise I don't get the unvote.

I'm just super apathetic right now. If Cyrus is targeting me I'm dead tonight anyway and I don't think anyone cares to listen to me. DGB's day play should be getting it thrown out a window but apparently we have a clear on the slot and I don't know who is scum because I feel like engagement levels with the game are nonexistent.

Also just read this interaction

How is this clearing at all? I’m so confused. You claiming apathy at that stage instead of, you know, voting osuka back again isn’t a positive.

[Andresvmb]

I'm saying read the whole dialog between VFP and I for context on why I unvoted there.

What’s the case against Kyouko? Can you point me some places I should re-read?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: DW

[Andresvmb]

Also hey Koba.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t think Chaos is Scum either for what it’s worth.

[Andresvmb]

what's the context to this? Who has made a lot of mistakes/isn't likely to be scum?

I think a simple read of Gamma’s ISO would certainly reinforce this point.

[Andresvmb]

Sorry, DGB.

[Andresvmb]

@koba: you weren't there for last day phase or day two. I pushed a wagon off of town onto scum, and then yesterday I was the first real voice talking about killing Titus.

Weird. I remember pushing Titus way earlier than you did and over Anya which you voted, but I’m getting 0 credit for it in your post.

[Andresvmb]

I’ve made my position clear. I don’t think I need to post endlessly and keep repeating myself.

[Andresvmb]

what's the context to this? Who has made a lot of mistakes/isn't likely to be scum?

I think a simple read of Gamma’s ISO would certainly reinforce this point.

Sorry, DGB.

I still dont understand, since DGB is dead and flipped town. Who is it that has made a lot of mistakes? Or are you saying Gamma made a lot of mistakes and apologizing to DGB in the dead thread, as separate posts?

I’m saying most every single one of DGB’s positions was wrong and they were still Town. Yeah they’re dead but it’s a great illustration that Town sometimes just have bad reads or are completely blind to the Scum. The only reason they had some sense of what was happening was because they were told a player was Town. Otherwise they kept pushing Anya mostly.

[Andresvmb]

I read Kyouko’s ISO - I’m not seeing why people think the slot is Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Actually I take that back - votes wise, Kyouko’s history is not great.

[Andresvmb]

I was trying to see how Kyouko’s thinking had progressed, and they have some good posts and at one point they attack nom3 and leave a vote there for some ~400 posts. But they’ve clearly never ended on Scum that I can tell and have consistently voted for Town funny enough. I mean there’s votes for T3, Anya… were not on the final wagons on Titus or osuka as far as I can tell. It’s not a great history.

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

[Andresvmb]

I want DW investigated.

[Andresvmb]

Do I think it’s possible Chaos flips Scum? Sure, it’s possible. Is that what I think will happen? No. Kyouko could be Scum, but I my gut just tells me DW is more likely to be Scum.

[Andresvmb]

The funny thing is - DW has a LOT of posts. Far more than the average person in this game. I don’t know if I should be considering that or not.

[Andresvmb]

But no. We are checking Kyo.

You are far too opposed to being cleared for me to be comfortable with your slot. Check me for all I care.

[Andresvmb]

I would be HAPPY being confirmed Town and not have to deal with the suspicion. I don’t like how hard you’re trying to direct the PT Cop.

[Andresvmb]

You aren’t going to be NK’ed give me a break. And being removed from the POE and forcing the Scum to NK you are good things. This thought you have that you’re so vital to the Town that you need to stick around isn’t believable at all.

[Andresvmb]

I just have never seen a Town player that is this opposed to being confirmed as Town. If I thought you had played in a way that made you a sure thing as Town then yeah I would not want you checked because I would feel it’s a waste. It’s just not here.

[Andresvmb]

And? Again, what’s the issue?

[Andresvmb]

But no. We are checking Kyo.

You are far too opposed to being cleared for me to be comfortable with your slot. Check me for all I care.

I’m the one checking people, get it straight

I know that you doofus.

[Andresvmb]

And? Again, what’s the issue?

I want to be in the game where I can make decisions, not reading from the dead thread where it is out of my hands.

This is just bullshit to me.

[Andresvmb]

But no. We are checking Kyo.

You are far too opposed to being cleared for me to be comfortable with your slot. Check me for all I care.

I’m the one checking people, get it straight

I know that you doofus.

Like just read the first sentence before saying something that contributes nothing and accuses me of not knowing who actually makes the choice. Would I be telling the person that has the ability to check players that I’m suspicious of them because… they don’t want to check themselves? Like c’mon now.

[Andresvmb]

The funny thing is - DW has a LOT of posts. Far more than the average person in this game. I don’t know if I should be considering that or not.

Out of curiosity: what do you want to consider about that? That I spend too much time checking here? True.

It’s not super common (though some players can manage it) that the top poster is Scum.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: DW

Yeah I’ll stick to this for now.

[Andresvmb]

@Koba can you tell me what you see in DW?

[Andresvmb]

Sure. I don’t know why you would think that but okay.

[Andresvmb]

Titus wagon is dead, I'll make my vote useful.

VOTE: osuka

I don’t think this is something Scum ever do. So they move from one of their Partners to the other? Why? Bussing happens sure, but this would be idiotic from a member of the Scum Team.

[Andresvmb]

I’m fine with the pool being {Kyouko, DW}. I think Chaos is likely Town and this is kind of silly.

[Andresvmb]

I think a lot of Chaos' ISO is vote parking scum but then not pushing it and I don't think vote parking clears a slot.

Asking for giant cases from players when they’ve voted correctly and at a key stage honestly seems ridiculous to me. And then on top of that, even when I’ve done it, you still think I should be in the POE. There’s no pleasing you regardless and I don’t know why you are pretending that if Chaos had provided a more detailed case they would be out of your POE.

[Andresvmb]

Talk to me about dwlee, I personally have, after misreading them, read them well, but obviously have never rolled against scum them so I don't have a baseline, but I do feel they are town here on gut.

Here’s what bothering me. Whenever a PR has threatened to use their power against them, instead of acting defiant (which is more the reaction I expect), they've acted defensive or apathetic. It’s also happened in situations where the Scum in general are clearly in a horrible place. If I’m Scum and about to be investigated here, I know I’m screwed. The only way to survive this is by forcing a few mis-executions (widening the POE by including Chaos for instance or insisting I should still be in the POE), and by advocating strongly for a check elsewhere while also assuming that Gamma needs to go tomorrow.

[Andresvmb]

They’ve softly defended every Scum that’s flipped, and went against their very well articulated reasons as to why Anya’s claim was believable.

[Andresvmb]

Did they end up on osuka? Yes. And did they need to defend Anya? Probably not, but you also need to remember that Anya’s was getting Roleblocked that night again and they were going to look silly for it.

[Andresvmb]

Obviously they also voted for Titus, but only after that flip really did look likely to happen, and only after speaking about how they’re apathetic and all this other stuff.

[Andresvmb]

Unless Chaos has a death wish, they’ve moved seamlessly between Scum votes and did not flinch. DW blinked while on osuka.

[Andresvmb]

Now, Kyouko’s voting history is horrific. They’ve found ways to avoid every Scum execution I think.

[Andresvmb]

So you figure Dwlee/Kyouko is likely then?

Yeah I think the last Scum is between the two. I don’t see Chaos as Scum and everybody else is ruled out in my mind due to mechanics or play.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t think we need to no lim honestly, but I think your proposal makes some sense.

I say we execute one of Kyouko and DW, check the other, and force the Scum’s hand. If I’m wrong I don’t think the Scum get away with it anyway - the POE is kind of narrow and they probably need to many mis-executions to win. And I’m not going to be one of them.

[Andresvmb]

^too many.*

[Andresvmb]

plus PT cop prob useless at this stage as we are prob dealing with 1 group scum 1 traitor or just 1 groupscum. so yep

The remaining scum would still have a PT for results purposes though? How is that result useless?

1 scum PT returns green on a PT cop

Not according to the wiki. A player in a PT by themselves will show up as “having access” to the PT Cop.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah but that doesn’t speak to what the result would be for a PT Cop.

[Andresvmb]

Look for PT Cop in the Wiki - it spells out what I’m saying.

[Andresvmb]

What I want is for those who are voting for Chaos to explain themselves outside of DW who already has tried to. I just don’t think TMI and vote parking Scum are particularly strong arguments.

[Andresvmb]

So you figure Dwlee/Kyouko is likely then?

Yeah I think the last Scum is between the two. I don’t see Chaos as Scum and everybody else is ruled out in my mind due to mechanics or play.

I think Andres is town if Gamma flips green. No way Titus and Andres are both scum while sitting in town!Gamma's check pool. But I don't think we should be assuming gamma is cleared at all and they 100% need to be flipped tomorrow. Their claim is convenient based on where the game state was when they claimed and I could easily see them being traitor

What I want you to think about and maybe not for this game is whether I would vote park my Partner all of D1, and then make a mechanical argument against my Partner while also suspecting them for other reasons (Titus). You already know that Town make mistakes obviously, but during those times that I’ve been focused, I think I’ve made decent points. I just don’t think you need to wait for Gamma to flip ever which way for me to be cleared. Based on what you’re saying, in the (remote) universe Gamma flips Traitor, I’m Scum. If Gamma flips main Scum, we’ve probably won, and if they flip Town PT Cop, then you’re saying I’m Town. So, what’s stopping you from just calling me Town?

[Andresvmb]

For balance reasons you already don’t think there’s a Traitor (I agree), so I don’t get it. But whatever I mean I don’t need you to clear me, we just need to find the last Scum and win.

[Andresvmb]

There’s also the fact that Kyouko was early on Titus actually. We shouldn’t discount that.

[Andresvmb]

That’s on the day that the wagon actually went through.

[Andresvmb]

I'll reread Kyo's ISO in the morning. I feel like last time I read it the Titus vote and Kyo's surrounding ISO it didn't seem like town catching scum. Did they hop off the wagon or something?

Not on the day Titus was executed, no. They defended Rathe and concluded Titus or Chaos made sense as the execution, and voted Titus (while making a slight joke). DW just has a weird progression around Titus that day. It doesn’t read like solving, but instead just a player that can’t get caught away from the Titus wagon that’s relentlessly building. DW even voted Gamma before landing on Titus that day.

[Andresvmb]

I was trying to see how Kyouko’s thinking had progressed, and they have some good posts and at one point they attack nom3 and leave a vote there for some ~400 posts. But they’ve clearly never ended on Scum that I can tell and have consistently voted for Town funny enough. I mean there’s votes for T3, Anya… were not on the final wagons on Titus or osuka as far as I can tell. It’s not a great history.

But yeah no I was wrong here. They didn’t end up on Titus the first time around (when Anya was executed), but they did end up on Titus the day after Anya flipped.

[Andresvmb]

What have I said that you think is a joke exactly?

[Andresvmb]

I’m not stupid. Fuck you with your ATE.

[Andresvmb]

You make an argument about how Anya was super Town, and then you help get them executed. Remind me why that’s a good thing for you.

[Andresvmb]

You have a weird progression around Titus, you clearly didn’t have the balls to vote them at one point so put a “Hurt: Titus” post down even after writing out all of the reasons they should be suspected, and then you manufacture a “hammer” and then try and deflect pressure from them. You unvoted osuka after they got run up, and you’ve defended nom3. It’s baffling to me that you would think it’s crazy someone thinks you’re Scum.

[Andresvmb]

If my case was complete bullshit, DW would have shredded it already. Instead they say they don’t remember specifics but confirm the gist of what I’ve said. Why is this convincing again?

[Andresvmb]

You want all of the Town cred for defending Anya in opposition to flipped Scum (in Titus for instance), but then when the fact that you ended up voting for Anya anyway gets brought up, you get offended. It makes no sense to me.

[Andresvmb]

Give me a break on having Titus south of null Days 1 and 2. What horseshit. The problem is that you’re inflating your positioning considerably. And it’s really annoying.

[Andresvmb]

Nero I just don't get your Titus stuff. Feels like all of your stuff there is 1. Not enough posts and 2. Pre-flip associatives (which aren't even necessarily valid because a town player can easily be between voting two town as well). What am I missing about that vote?

Is this you having Titus south of null D1?

[Andresvmb]

Nero can you pick a different person from your list to vote? Not feeling this one.

And this is your reaction to Nero’s vote on nom3.

[Andresvmb]

what are your thoughts on Titus and why did you never give your thoughts on nom?

I think the thing about Titus active lurking is kinda meh and I don't like the pre-flip associatives otherwise. I likewise just don't feel strongly on the nom stuff. Nom's posting feels good enough to me on a tonal read

Yep, definitely Scum Read there.

[Andresvmb]

Then don’t inflate what you’ve done. That’s what I’m getting irritated by. You had Titus south of null in post 100 but push comes to shove that day, you defend there. You defended nom3. You leave the door open to move away from Titus, and only vote when you absolutely couldn’t avoid it because it was going to happen without you and that would be catastrophic.

[Andresvmb]

On the day Titus gets executed.

[Andresvmb]

If you agreed on outcome you would have voted there and explained your reasoning. This is just bullshit I’m sorry.

[Andresvmb]

Oh so you mean what I just posted there but remembering my thought process from like two months ago?

You misremembering what you’ve posted is your issue, not mine. If you want to say my case is bullshit, then at least get basic shit right.

[Andresvmb]

Around those posts you were voting for Dunnstral.

[Andresvmb]

There’s no world where I would ever feel you should be out of the POE. Titus also said I had bad reads early. They were Scum. Not a bulletproof defense that one.

[Andresvmb]

But you stating that I am being extremely stupid is fucking annoying. If you can’t empathize with why someone could be suspicious of your slot based on what’s happened this game, then I feel you’re more likely to be Scum than not.

[Andresvmb]

Look I don’t have any certainty as to who the last Scum is. What I do know is that you getting all annoyed about being suspected is ridiculous.

[Andresvmb]

How is Titus saying you have bad reads relevant?

They were talking about their own reads, not mine. Sorry that wasn’t clear.

[Andresvmb]

I think it's pretty normal to be annoyed about it but that's just me. Especially when I think you're oblivious to something.

No you think you should be getting massive town cred about something that just isn’t as meaningful as you’re making it out to be. Hard defending a Town slot is done by reasonably good Scum all the time. Kyouko has consistently defended me. Chaos is defending me. We’re not all Scum now are we?

[Andresvmb]

I’m defending Chaos. I defended petapan. I clearly expressed reservations about executing Anya, and did not end up there. And bashed the early case against them. You still think I could be Scum. Maybe stop being a hypocrite, and then I’ll accept that this frustration is genuine.

[Andresvmb]

Oh yea. In my defense wrt that, Titus' reads were 1.) Much worse and 2.) I called them out on it

Actions speak way louder than words. That’s what I’m trying to get across to you. Making “valid” cases but then voting for Town or ultimately trying to deflect away from Titus with that “hammer” that wasn’t a hammer are bad looks for you. You defended Anya and seemed to really believe their Claim - why would you not defend there the second time around?

[Andresvmb]

Dude could is on such a different plane than probable. Am I talking about killing you today? No.

To win if you’re Scum, you need three mis-executions. You clearly want Chaos into Gamma. Leaving me as an “option” is a must for you.

[Andresvmb]

Like, if I reach M/ELO I'm going to do a complete reeval. Is it more likely I would keep thinking you're town? Yes, but there is no hard clear on you.

There’s no hard clear on you either but you seem to think you should be out of the POE and don’t want to get investigated. That’s nonsense.

[Andresvmb]

Look I’m not going to convince you that you’re Scum that’s absurd. This is part of why I hate these conversations - my opinion is mostly made up, so I can’t say I care too much about what you have to say. I think you’re solidly in the POE. I want others to grill me or tell me I’m wrong or say I’m being stupid. But you calling me stupid but then basically admitting I don’t have the facts all that wrong is infuriating.

[Andresvmb]

Andres come back so I can laugh with you

Haha I’m still here but I’m going to sleep. I need to catch a plane in 7 hours.

[Andresvmb]

Nero SR almost the entire Team that says nothing about your alignment. They hard pushed nom3 and Titus. You can’t possibly argue that them not also SR’ing you D1 helps your case. I don’t remember if they SR osuka but I wouldn’t be surprised if they did. Cyrus was quite clearly a mechanical kill.

[Andresvmb]

Cyrus was a claimed Babysitter / Vigilante / Vengeful Town. That slot was dead the minute they claimed that regardless of their reads. And they were responsible for Vax’s death and were SR’ing Titus. Like what.

[Andresvmb]

The NK I’m most struggling with is T3 but they TR me pretty strongly. But hey, no mention of that. Gamma has been floated as an execution and there’s been some mechanical reasons provided included by cleared Town so I suppose I get it to some extent.

[Andresvmb]

Andres I'm convinced you're not even reading my words...

I’m reading them. I would agree Koba is not exactly on point about every slot that was NK’ed SR you. That’s fair. But you are bringing up the fact that some of those slots TR you as evidence that you’re Town. I say that’s also an exaggeration.

[Andresvmb]

Also, DGB had pretty horrific reads. They hard defended Scum multiple times. I don’t care what their reads were it’s irrelevant.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not sure the T3 kills points to that much. They were cleared Town, and they voted correctly for Titus. That’s enough to get them NK’ed. Look here’s the thing - there’s certain players that I would trust their reads after flipping Town. I can’t say I feel that way about T3.

[Andresvmb]

What I’m saying is that I don’t think an argument can be made convincingly here that the NK’s absolve or condemn anyone at this point.

[Andresvmb]

Koba is wrong about that argument, but we agree on the rest. The other thing of course is that Koba has not been in the game for that long. So that’s also important to keep in mind.

[Andresvmb]

I mean Koba isn’t a traitor unless you want to argue VFP really wanted to sink their buddies repeatedly this game.

[Andresvmb]

You’re not going to convince me that Koba is Scum. I think that’s highly unlikely.

[Andresvmb]

There’s also not 2 Scum left. I would be pretty horrified if that was the case.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway I’m out of here. I’ll check back at some point tomorrow but I am traveling over the next few days so @Mod I’m VLA until Thursday. Just so I stop getting prodded. I will still post just not often.

[Andresvmb]

I mean I could hammer Chaos but I really don’t think it’s going to flip Scum but I have been wrong before so that wouldn’t be all that shocking.

[Andresvmb]

@DW I don’t know that I care about having an extended interaction. Chaos put forth most of what I’ve been arguing in better detail, and you’ve responded. I think your insistence that certain events be viewed a certain way is Scummy actually, but whatever I don’t really care.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t have a rush to hammer - what do you want to discuss exactly?

And yeah I don’t see a lot of value from interacting with you about your posts or behavior. If you want to talk about Chaos for example I think that makes sense. Look from my POV, Chaos has been determined 2 consecutive days to get their view on your slot through. It’s been consistent and it doesn’t read like a fraudulent case. Now any vote or explanation can be wrong of course. But the way they’ve approached the argument seems Towny. But look this is my perception.

[Andresvmb]

Obviously it helps that I noticed some of the same things and agree with the overall conclusion. And they posted some things in real time that I think point to a Town perspective. I mean hell, I thought some of the same stuff and wrote it down before reading their reaction.

[Andresvmb]

Let’s just see how the game shakes out. I am not going to get overly confrontational or anything - there’s no point.

[Andresvmb]

Before I put any more effort into this game I want to know Gamma’s result.

[Andresvmb]

Something makes me feel like gamma wouldn't be alive if he was going to get a guilty here (and I'm assuming he will confirm that). So it's either him or it's Andres/VFP!slot which is deeply upsetting

The fact that you continue to push me as potential Scum is genuinely aggravating.

[Andresvmb]

Also lol dwlee imma be real i cant ever trust u again against my gut... too many misses, my gut is too stonk

gamma being alive is literally incriminating for his slot but ok LOL
If he checked andres im powerlimming the slot

This is correct btw. If I was checked, then we execute Gamma.

[Andresvmb]

Now here is the interesting thing.

[Andresvmb]

We don’t think there’s any chance in hell that DGB’s clear on DotW was wrong right?

[Andresvmb]

I am finding it really hard to believe that Scum left Gamma alive up to this point.

[Andresvmb]

The check was definitely going to be Kyouko / DW with the execution probably on the other. But Kyouko decided to take a chance and leave Gamma alive, shoot STD? Why? That seems so dumb.

[Andresvmb]

With that check, VFP / Koba, DW and I are lock Town.

[Andresvmb]

Gamma, Andres, and I are lock town

This means DotW is either Town with Gamma, and then we execute Kyouko for a win, or aligned with Gamma as Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Now, STD thought the last Scum was Kyouko.

[Andresvmb]

We don’t think there’s any chance in hell that DGB’s clear on DotW was wrong right?

Zero chance. DGB flipped informed townie and had claimed it was confirming DotW is town.

Then we have to execute Kyouko.

[Andresvmb]

But this *feels* silly. Like strategically it makes no sense.

[Andresvmb]

Kyouko was hoping what Gamma checks you DW, and then you’re cleared, I then am forced to execute Gamma and left alive with who that I would have ever executed over them? Koba would do the same - execute Kyouko over anyone else after you’re cleared.

[Andresvmb]

How are DotW and Gamma still alive here? It has to be bad Scum play then. And Kyouko just buried their Partner with an early vote for a bus D4? I guess so? Their votes are bad before then so I can see how it’s possible.

[Andresvmb]

Sounds like as long as dragon lives I can't be mislimmed let's gooo

^ for instance, this

I mean you don’t have to refer to crumbs you’re Town. Gamma is either faking a check or Kyouko is Scum.

[Andresvmb]

I can confirm I am VT.

Either Kyouko is lying or Gamma is.

[Andresvmb]

You asked why DotW is alive. I answered.

But there’s been an execution every Night. So the Scum didn’t catch your crumb. Otherwise you would be dead.

[Andresvmb]

Multiple VTs have flipped. Think about how silly this is. Scum Kyouko left Gamma alive to clear multiple players and then shoots the players that have been cleared but not Gamma, and then leaves it open for them to get checked when they’re solidly in the POE (my POE was Kyouko / DW, Koba would have agreed, STD thought it was Kyouko)?

[Andresvmb]

Koba came in also saying Kyouko could be Scum. Like this feels like a throw and quite silly.

[Andresvmb]

And I don’t think Kyouko is this incompetent. I just don’t.

[Andresvmb]

Okay well there’s one thing. If the Scum knew that there’s a Rolestopper, then they assume Gamma is being protected.

[Andresvmb]

That’s for sure. And that has been the case, just not every Night (why not just protect Gamma every night? Was that not possible?)

[Andresvmb]

So then they know that if they shoot there, and there’s no execution, the game narrows to the point where they lose. The Rolestopper claims, clears Gamma and themselves, and Gamma’s check is by chance probably not the Rolestopper, and it’s auto loss.

[Andresvmb]

So that explains the behavior we’ve seen possibly.

[Andresvmb]

But anyway, if we assume DGB wasn’t throwing, then we just execute Kyouko and if that’s wrong, we execute Gamma and it’s game over. Unless we’re living in a world with a Traitor, which I would argue is somewhat unlikely, then we probably don’t lose.

[Andresvmb]

I think we need to execute Gamma.

[Andresvmb]

Kyouko is either main Scum (and has lost the game), or cleared.

[Andresvmb]

If Gamma is Scum, they’re probably Traitor (I doubt main Scum would take this chance unless they knew for a fact that a Traitor was in the game). We could theoretically lose if Gamma is Traitor and doing this now. But we can’t lose if Kyouko is just Scum and we wait until tomorrow to execute them. You have to believe I’m Town though and not Traitor (can’t be main Scum clearly).

[Andresvmb]

VFP / Koba doesn’t just vote Kyouko there as Traitor they lose, and have to defend Kyouko. So they’re not aligned. And DotW is cleared. Given the dynamics, I doubt DW is ever Scum and the Scum have behaved like these indeed a role that blocks kills.

[Andresvmb]

There’s indeed a role*

[Andresvmb]

I would be flabbergasted if there’s 5 main Scum in this game. I don’t see it. Though the Town have a lot of power. PT Cop, Macho Rolestopper, Vengeful Combined Vigilante Babysitter, Town Informed, and 2-Shot Announcing Voyeur? It’s a lot.

[Andresvmb]

The Scum just haven’t flipped with a lot of power. The Informed Compulsive Jailkeeper was it?

[Andresvmb]

Can somebody talk to me? Am I overthinking this?

[Andresvmb]

Given what I’ve seen on this forum, there’s no way a reviewer would think that a 17p game could be balanced with 5 Scum.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Kyouko