Mini Theme 2222: Open Draft Mafia [Game Over]

[Dwlee99]

Does anyone care to join me on Titus?

[Infinity 324]

No

[Dwlee99]

Lame

[Titus]

I still think you performed an rather useless action though, which feels more pro-scum than it does town.

Isn't that usually more likely to come from town though?

How so?

I feel scum are usually more careful and don't tend to use plays like this

It's a very careful scum play to land on a townie that has a gun. We get no information. Dwlee99 posted that he looked back. He or a teammate could have easily seen that crumb.

[Dwlee99]

It wasn't a crumb. It was a claim I missed.

[NDMath]

These statements technically cannot both be true (Unless I'm misunderstanding you). Telling the truth has to be at least slightly town-indicative for me (to balance out lying being a guilty) or else I was an awful rolecop target.

Sure they can. The best town use of a rolecop is on an already claimed player in an attempt to catch them in a lie. That would be a guilty. You having told the truth about your claim doesn't make you more likely to be town. It's kind of like how a N1 track with no result in a normal isn't really useful information, but a N1 track to a kill is very useful information.

Mathematically, it does a proportional amount to the likelihood of me lying. Like how a N1 track to no where deduces that the target didn't commit the kill and reduces that player's chance of being scum by the likelihood of them committing the kill N1.

WRT your PoE being so small, do you mind sharing a readslist? Particularly interested in your takes on A50/Dunn/Norwee.

Infinity Titus
A50
Norwee Dunn
Mastina Bingle
Dwlee

The mastina/bingle tier is an idk where to place rather than null, like I feel I probably should have each of them higher currently but don't really.

With almost50, I'm seeing them as town much easier than I was day1. His pack claim of trying to get himself killed has played out much better than I had anticipated and I'm now on board with the thought process that it'd be a very weird thing for him to do as scum. His d2/d3 posting also looks roughly like what I'd expect from town!a50 in terms of what he chooses to comment on.

Dunn is north of null pretty much because of the mason claim, there's nothing I scumread him for but wouldn't be surprised for him to flip either way.

With Norwee, the only arguments against them I've found persuasive was from Taly, I probably need to revisit those. Major difference between norwee and dwlee for me is that I've had more positive internal reactions to norwee's posts "that's a good point" or "I like that question" while I've felt very indifferent(?) to dwlee's posts.

[Infinity 324]

Hmm why does scum!dunn pass a mason wouldn't that be a scumclaim?

[Dwlee99]

Highest tier Titus read moment

[Dwlee99]

Please someone give me something other than something like "scum!Titus wouldn't completely illogically tunnel into someone for bad reasons"

[Infinity 324]

Taly was very towny

Titus feels like she believes her read

[Dwlee99]

She is good enough to fake believing that

[Dwlee99]

Like I am normally a very tonal player but Titus is someone I can't read on tone. Her behavior is what gives her away

[Infinity 324]

Ok but you can't say that this is out of her townrange either? And it's at least an odd move for scum/something you don't see scum do very much

[Dwlee99]

I don't think it is

out

of her town range but this sort of unproductive tunnel allows her to look like she is doing stuff when she isn't. And it is something I think scum!Titus does

[Infinity 324]

I don't see it

[Dwlee99]

Zzz

[Titus]

Can the people not voting vote?

[mastina]

With Norwee, the only arguments against them I've found persuasive was from Taly, I probably need to revisit those. Major difference between norwee and dwlee for me is that I've had more positive internal reactions to norwee's posts "that's a good point" or "I like that question" while I've felt very indifferent(?) to dwlee's posts.

*a-HEM*

I feel like Mastina keeps harping on the same pounts about me but they never actually progress their read in response to things i’ve done or flips that are happening.

Your alignment doesn't change so the points I make don't become suddenly obsolete. What new information makes you less likely to be scum? Claiming the pack you got truthfully? The various claims today of which none are about you but which most sound true and thus narrow the poe down to include you? (That

strengthens

the scumread, it doesn't weaken it.) House flipping scum when nothing in your posts or his make you not be partners? And in fact you have decent partner equity with him? From your stances on him? Even taking time to process the guilty on him as being such?
Plus, House has decent partner equity with you, too, with this defense of you. He did vote Norwee here, but quoteth House himself,

Hopping on but back off before elimination is a pretty basic distancing tactic.

Guess what House did?

VOTE: T3

This looks an awful lot like hopping onto the Norwee wagon but backing off before a Norwee elimination, the very scum tactic House described.

If anything, the new evidence just keeps piling up and being

more

damning towards you being scum, Norwee. Not less.

[Almost50]

Hmm why does scum!dunn pass a mason wouldn't that be a scumclaim?

I think the keyword is CLAIM, NDMath is saying Scum!Dunn would have taken the Mason ability without claiming it.

[Infinity 324]

Ok makes sense

[mastina]

Spoiler: Taly's case against Norwee

If Mom truly avoids scum games then it is valid to push. But it may look like that slot will be replaced soon and focus does little to help. So Mom-T3 there is possible but I'm likelier to say Mom is S and T3 is T.

To be truthful Norwee, I don't know what your catch up posts accomplish. They don't feel conclusive or directed.

Norwee's posting has been more shallow thus far than in previous experiences, and Flea may have been on to something about Mom dropping scum games.

Lol Infinity r u town.

I swear, Infinity is like the easiest player to read in existence.

I see mason in my card pack and will be picking it tonight
If any other town player sees mason at some point this game with me alive, they should take it

VOTE: Bingle
Bingle amirite

Nah, I turned around. You’re left. It’s been a while since I looked at the deck, but I don’t remember any particular tricks as important. Dunn should probs not pick mason (we might can turn it into a parity cop), but I need to think on this. See y’all tomorrow.

Town.

VOTE: cyrus62

Still trying to set up mis elim.

VOTE: Taly

Town?

VOTE: flea

Scum? (Honestly hard to tell tho.)

Vote: Infinity 324

Wtf Mastina. Where is the early full reads list?
This feels different and i don’t know how i feel about that.

cyrus is the most obvious town ever but I'll leave you to formulate your read by yourself with that knowledge.

I don’t really care if they are town. I just want them to keep being in the game and make funny posts.

But yes, they do seem just like town!Cyrus in the previous game i had with em.

My argument is not that T3 is town for calling mastina's post scummy. My argument is that House, given the context of FMFT having the thought that mastina's opening matches her scum meta as town, arguing that T3 arguing that mastina's post is scummy is scummy. I think T3 thinking mastina's opener is scummy is NAI.

...What?

Bingle can you share some of that good shit you’re smoking?

notice me

norweeeeeeeee

<3

Taly weren’t you supposed to be obvious town when town the last time i checked?
What’s your reads this game?

These are posts in his intro that didn't pass the vibe check with me. They're all filler, but they position

Norwe

into a certain lens of the slot.

He doesn't have to explain his townread on you because its so easy.

He doesn't need to ask

Mastina

why there is no readslist because "it is different and he doesn't know how to feel about that."

He doesn't have to care whether

Cyrus

is town because he might actually know it to be true.

He doesn't have to understand what

Bingle's

argument meant because it doesn't affect his position in the game.

He doesn't have to find nuance to my game play because he can rely on my reputation of being "obvtown" as a means to impose an expectation on me that I cannot control - perception from others.

None of these things alone is a negative. But the full picture gives me the idea that Norwe is filling space and any posts he has made early is not to solve - but to maneuver. To influence. To gauge.

Of course

Norwe

gets better overtime with posts because he knows what he has to handle in the game... alone, this behavior is NAI. But the context goes not give me faith.

Norwe, you're blowing a lot of hot air my way when you've prompted me to assess your slot and justify my vote.

Also, it is a misrep to condense my case onto you as only how you interact with Infinity when that is explicitly not the case, Norwe.
I don't like that that's the narrative you interpret my suspicion on.

Because I'm on vacation for the weekend and do not have access to computer. I'm not spending my life on mafia.

Keep the excuses coming buddy.

See, this is why I don't vibe with you this game. You painted my "will sheep wagon" and "who is my partner" posts has wolfy without actually trying to discern my motive
And then when I finally work with you by giving you input, you minimize it and bias it into the narrow viewpoint you have created on my slot.
This doesn't read sincere.

And if you think we are TvS, what are you doing right now to determine you do not mislim? And what if a mislim occurs then, the other is confscum?

What i always do, push, ask questions, evaluate. I’m also waiting for Mastina to get back as they seem to have dipped.

This is not a satisfactory answer. This doesn't explain how you're reading Mastina or I in a nuanced manner and how that contributes to your view of the game at large.

I also doubt Infinity-Norwe SvS happens,... and my recent interaction with Norwe strengthened my scumread of his slot.

Yeah, at no point have I reciprocated the "let's write this off as TvT" with Norwee, nor think I eluded to that. The disconnect between how he frames this situation and how I've actively detailed my POV about it is why I think his frustration may be likelier coming from scum. His posts have been some form of diversion since mine and mastina's push.

There are FIVE votes on you. There are only THREE SCUM.

[5] NorwegianboyEE:

mastina, Flea The Magician

, Taly, NDMath,

T3

@NDMATH:

from your perspective, 3/5 of the names on the Norwee L-2 wagon are conftown (Flea, T3, and yourself). So if Norwee is town,

where are the scum on the Norwee wagon?

But if

Norwee

wobbles into this thread again only to ignore my previous posts specifically about him, I'm going to deathtunnel that slot.

Big highlight to be outside the spoiler;

[5] NorwegianboyEE:

mastina, Flea The Magician

, Taly, NDMath,

T3

@NDMATH:

from your perspective, 3/5 of the names on the Norwee L-2 wagon are conftown (Flea, T3, and yourself). So if Norwee is town,

where are the scum on the Norwee wagon?

If the answer is, "none",

Why are there zero scum on an L-2 wagon of Norwee?

Spoiler: Flea's Case against Norwee

I would say Mom is a scumread because she tends to lurk as scum (eg. dogs vs cats).

Thanks for that. Remind me, who is Mom again? Also, I'm not familiar with the game you're referencing. Does Mom only lurk as scum or are there times this has also happened as town?

From what I've seen she basically tries to coast the entire game as scum. She's more proactive as town. Mom is Momrangal.

Yeah this....
VOTE: Mom

(Notably, this is even more of a case against Norwee with House as scum; House was defending Momrangal, Norwee's predecessor, here.)

VOTE: House
I feel good on this. Mom is scum too.

(Wouldn't ya know it? Flea was right about House and was right about Norwee, too.)

ok so NWEE is scum, straight up. Mom WIM tell.

I'm prtty sold on Norwee scum here, honestly.

Why?

Strong gut vibe.

Flea can you point at what posts made you go from

See I've caught ScumWee pretty early before, and I'm not feeling this vibe...

to

I'm prtty sold on Norwee scum here, honestly.

Lack of follow ups on questioning mainly and the vibe is matching CaD mafia.

Spoiler: Infinity Case

Of all the players here Infinity should be the most qualified to read me imo.

This seems wrong, I only have one completed game with you. Honestly it bothers me that you're saying this.

Norwee why didn't you engage with my reasoning for taly!town

This really confuses me.
So it seems like in your push against House you’re asking them to show more town motivation, but you’re not really explaining what this supposed town motivation that has been lacking from House’s posts is. Which makes me sorta indifferent to your push there. What is House doing here that he wouldn’t as town in response to being pushed??

The response to being pushed isn't really the problem, I felt like 640 had a pretty reasonable scum motivation (trying to look unbothered by my vote) but no town motivation that I could see. His response, I guess, is that he was just being frustratingly pedantic, which I do actually think could be reasonable after thinking about it more. But that was the idea behind my push.

(Notably, this is Norwee having a

big fucking huge

defense of House, our flipped scum.)

Norwee's scumgame kinda looks like his towngame tbh, except less

I'm sort of baffled that you're not townreading mastina though.
VOTE: norwee

Norwee I feel like you're either making up excuses to SR mastina or are upset about the tunnel and that's strongly biasing your read. Tunneling isn't scummy

Important to highligh as being House-tied-to-Norwee since folks don't read spoilers:

I would say Mom is a scumread because she tends to lurk as scum (eg. dogs vs cats).

Thanks for that. Remind me, who is Mom again? Also, I'm not familiar with the game you're referencing. Does Mom only lurk as scum or are there times this has also happened as town?

From what I've seen she basically tries to coast the entire game as scum. She's more proactive as town. Mom is Momrangal.

Yeah this....
VOTE: Mom

(Notably, this is even more of a case against Norwee with House as scum; House was defending Momrangal, Norwee's predecessor, here.)

This really confuses me.
So it seems like in your push against House you’re asking them to show more town motivation, but you’re not really explaining what this supposed town motivation that has been lacking from House’s posts is. Which makes me sorta indifferent to your push there. What is House doing here that he wouldn’t as town in response to being pushed??

The response to being pushed isn't really the problem, I felt like 640 had a pretty reasonable scum motivation (trying to look unbothered by my vote) but no town motivation that I could see. His response, I guess, is that he was just being frustratingly pedantic, which I do actually think could be reasonable after thinking about it more. But that was the idea behind my push.

(Notably, this is Norwee having a

big fucking huge

defense of House, our flipped scum.)

[Dwlee99]

Mastina I would take your case more seriously if it didn't seem like a lot of it is exaggerated. (Like your "big fucking huge defense of House" is him asking someone a question about their house vote")

[mastina]

Oh I forgot to include T3 in there--yaknow, the weird-ass random-ass nightkill scum made. For no reason I can discern but clearly having a reason.

Because I'm on vacation for the weekend and do not have access to computer. I'm not spending my life on mafia.

Keep the excuses coming buddy.

Now i’m not entirely sure which one of you/Mastina is the scum, as it would be quite unlikely for two scum to pile on an case. But i’m perfectly fine wagoning either of you two until i find out.

These both ping me weirdly.

Eh i should have tried to keep my cool more, i've tried to change my style recently where i don't act all flustered about being wagoned but i went back to my old roots again.
I'll evolve to an higher level of consciousness from this point on. In the grand scheme of things, these fights do not help me with solving. Better to settle this petty squabble and look at the game differently.
Now i don't think,

The tone of this post feels off to me on a reread.

If Norwee isn't scum then I really don't know who is.

VOTE: Norwee
I get a very similar tone to the newbie when he was scum. He's a lot more authoritative and his posts almost come off as coming from a robot.

I voted Norwe because his tone felt weird.

At the same time mastina posted a case on Norwee, and I independently arrived at my own conclusion.

So, what Norwee is saying is a downright fabrication and probably scum.

Imagine if the solve is something stupid like Norwee Flea and Ndmath.

For that matter cyrus had his own thoughts I also forgot.

I think Norwegian vs tally is svs

This doesn't read sincere and I'm getting frustrated.

Why are you getting frustrated if you think i’m being insincere? This doesn’t seem like the correct mindset to have.

So what

is

a correct mindset?

And if you think we are TvS, what are you doing right now to determine you do not mislim? And what if a mislim occurs then, the other is confscum?

What i always do, push, ask questions, evaluate. I’m also waiting for Mastina to get back as they seem to have dipped.

This is not a satisfactory answer. This doesn't explain how you're reading Mastina or I in a nuanced manner and how that contributes to your view of the game at large.

The correct mindset is to not act frustrated when literally someone you claim to scumread supposedly acts insincere in your eyes? Like why would you expect supposed mafia to be sincere? It just seems like an weird thing to say you feel based on your claimed mindset.
Not that i feel like i’ve been insincere in the first place but your comment pinged me.

I think this here is insincere

Cyrus i ignore most of your posts because they’re almost unreadable. That doesn’t mean i’d say i haven’t read up on the game.

Just not when I'm questioning you or when your quoteing it and saying let you know how it gos or better yet I want to see more post from you?

Well yeah, i try to respond to your questions obviously?

I cught you and you know it so go write in the scum pt Cyrus cught me. But here's the thing I will vote mistina and if she flips town I'm voteing you.

Admittedly, both of these kills don't give absolute infallible scumreads on Norwee, but they do show at least the potential interest in voting Norwee. T3's having been proven by having voted there before, and cyrus being the wildcard he was, being a tangible threat.

How many players who scumread Norwee need to flip town before you realize it's not just me scumreading Norwee, that it isn't me tunneling on town, and that Norwee is actually just scum?

[Titus]

I like mastina's case even though it's not on Dwlee or Bingle. I am willing to compromise there.

[Almost50]

Mastina's case on Norwee looks really really bad ON HER.

Like she totally left out the posts where T3 states a TR on Norwee and calls cyrus' reads bad. Here are some examples:

Wouldn't surpize me if infinity and ee are scum. But I'm currently trying to see if I can get t3 to make a mistake

There once was a mafia player named cyrus.

He was completely wrong about everything but he was obvious town.

He lost.

The end

- T3

For some reason Norwee reminds me of bloodhail in the Micro Normal. By play, really scummy but I got really good gutvibes from him. I eventually realized my townread was not based in logic and I was the hammer vote on his mislim.

I'm like 75% sure Norwe will flip town but tbh I'm fine with that if it gets discussion rolling tomorrow.