Mini 659: The Neighborhood- Game over on Day 6

[bionicchop2]

That's an odd request from someone who just moved his vote from a frontrunner to an unknown. Two of your four suspects are being voted by others, why not focus on one of them?

If needed I will move my vote. I really wasn't aware of the current vote when I made my vote.

[fhqwhgads]

I'm pretty happy with my vote on Darox still. While his analysis was adequate, it feels to me of a case of 'too little, too late'. He's been claiming a case on tony since his explanationless vote earlier. Then, when coaxed to give an explanation, he gives one mainly on tony's actions AFTER his vote. When this is pointed out to him several times and is re-asked to give is original case, he gives in and does. While his 'new' case does relate to things tony has done before his vote, it feels to me he's been buying time to fabricate a case to justify his vote. I don't buy it.

Ythill's post has convinced me somewhat that we need to take crywolf's actions more seriously. His case points out that she is either scum, or an overconfident newbie. Note that option two does not rule out she's scum either. I don't think it'll be difficult to sway my vote to her if we near deadline.

Still waiting on Oman to point out who else is town, so I can narrow down who he thinks is scum.

[Darox]

I'm pretty happy with my vote on Darox still. While his analysis was adequate, it feels to me of a case of 'too little, too late'. He's been claiming a case on tony since his explanationless vote earlier. Then, when coaxed to give an explanation, he gives one mainly on tony's actions AFTER his vote. When this is pointed out to him several times and is re-asked to give is original case, he gives in and does. While his 'new' case does relate to things tony has done before his vote, it feels to me he's been buying time to fabricate a case to justify his vote. I don't buy it.

Ythill's post has convinced me somewhat that we need to take crywolf's actions more seriously. His case points out that she is either scum, or an overconfident newbie. Note that option two does not rule out she's scum either. I don't think it'll be difficult to sway my vote to her if we near deadline.

Still waiting on Oman to point out who else is town, so I can narrow down who he thinks is scum.

Please, if you don't have the decency to actually read the thread, at least admit to it and don't just make stuff up.

I never once posted two cases or two sets of reasons for my vote on tony.

[fhqwhgads]

I'm voting for Tony because he is scum. I thought that was obvious.
I also thought it was obvious that I hadn't softclaimed. Because, you know, I never once hinted at something like 'I'm going to get you tonight' or 'I won't let you die' or 'I have proof of guilt' or anything along those lines.
What you interpret from my actions does not equal a softclaim from myself.

I'm sorry. You are right. I was really stretching calling this a case it was more a 'response'. My point still stands that we had to drag out the original reasoning from you while you basically ignored the pleas for you to do so. The posts you made after this 'response' was basically gunning on tony for things he said after you placed the vote.

[crywolf20084]

I'm voting for Tony because he is scum. I thought that was obvious.
I also thought it was obvious that I hadn't softclaimed. Because, you know, I never once hinted at something like 'I'm going to get you tonight' or 'I won't let you die' or 'I have proof of guilt' or anything along those lines.
What you interpret from my actions does not equal a softclaim from myself.

I'm sorry. You are right. I was really stretching calling this a case it was more a 'response'. My point still stands that we had to drag out the original reasoning from you while you basically ignored the pleas for you to do so. The posts you made after this 'response' was basically gunning on tony for things he said after you placed the vote.

My whole thing about Darox's responce was that it was delayed for so long, I just don't know if I could put any faith behind it.

[Ythill]

My whole thing about Darox's responce was that it was delayed for so long, I just don't know if I could put any faith behind it.

Says the girl who still hasn't responded to a single point of my case. It's not going away just because you ignore it.

[crywolf20084]

My whole thing about Darox's responce was that it was delayed for so long, I just don't know if I could put any faith behind it.

Says the girl who still hasn't responded to a single point of my case. It's not going away just because you ignore it.

What am I supposed to say? Basically everything you said was rhetorical.

[bionicchop2]

##unvote elias;vote crywolf

No point leaving my vote on a player who is going to be replaced.

Reasons on crywolf I have outlined yeserday and today, so not going to rehash what I have already said. More than the scummy posting, her voting is very suspicious. She was quick to follow what everybody was saying for cases yesterday, but she only voted Lowell - repeatedly. Unvoted and revoted him several times. I see this as new scum not trying to get into confrontations with too many people, so keeping her vote in one place. She has managed to agree with most people. The current vote on Tommy may be a bus vote.

[TonyMontana]

What am I supposed to say? Basically everything you said was rhetorical.

That doesn't cut it.

The votes are all over the place, it's time we put some pressure somewhere.

##unvote, vote: Crywolf

[Oman]

What am I supposed to say? Basically everything you said was rhetorical.

That doesn't cut it.

The votes are all over the place, it's time we put some pressure somewhere.

##unvote, vote: Crywolf

Wow, you don't fuck around do you? As soon as the vote numbers jumped up so did yours...

[gorckat]

Vote Count

(6 to lynch)

crywolf (3):

Ythill, bionic, TonyMontana

TonyMontana (2):

Darox, Oman

Darox:

fhqwhgads

Tommy:

crywolf

Ythill:

Rashiminos

Not voting (2):

Elias, Tommy

[crywolf20084]

What am I supposed to say? Basically everything you said was rhetorical.

That doesn't cut it.

The votes are all over the place, it's time we put some pressure somewhere.

##unvote, vote: Crywolf

That is pretty hypocritical of you, because if I remember right, you refused to answer some questions. I said I have nothing to say because they all seemed rhetorical.

[TonyMontana]

There's no such thing as a rhetorical question here. Even if ythill was making accusations in form of questions, he clearly expects you to reply.

[crywolf20084]

There's no such thing as a rhetorical question here. Even if ythill was making accusations in form of questions, he clearly expects you to reply.

Yes there is such thing as rhetorical questions. It was a post by post anaylsis with rhetorical questions, or if you want to consider them not rhetorical then I would take them as questions set out of taking the opinions of others.

See like this:

This is pretty bad. Two of the three times that wolf mentioned her list, she was claiming to be working on it which suggests that she intends to share it when she is done. Now she cites it for the first time and claims that she’s been keeping this information close to her chest for (1) a long time and (2) no reason. This begs a ton of questions. Why would she promise a future list if she already had some of it? Why would she have claimed to have had it for a extensive amount of time when not long ago she was still working on it? Why would she keep it quiet when she was so intent on gaining others’ tacit information (option c) and decrying other players for not sharing reasoning (Darox and Tony)? None of this makes sense from a wolf-as-town perspective.

How would you respond to something like that if it were posed to you, Tony. Oh wait. You hardly responded to the strait forward questions.

[fhqwhgads]

It should be easy. Where is your 'list'? Does it exist? Is this a rhetorical question?

Or is there no answers because he hit the nail on the head?

[crywolf20084]

It should be easy. Where is your 'list'? Does it exist? Is this a rhetorical question?

Or is there no answers because he hit the nail on the head?

My list was over Tommy. I had started to notice Tommy's behavior right as it started and I wasn't sure when was a good time. I knew I didn't wanna do it in day one, but when Bionic noticed it too I felt it was time to point out the many other times it has happened.

[gorckat]

**M4yhem replaces Elias**

First post and vote count updates to occur later this evening.

[gorckat]

Vote Count

(6 to lynch)

crywolf (3):

Ythill, bionic, TonyMontana

TonyMontana (2):

Darox, Oman

Darox:

fhqwhgads

Tommy:

crywolf

Ythill:

Rashiminos

Not voting (2):

M4yhem, Tommy

Updated for new name. Still working Tommy's replacement.

[Rashiminos]

@Rash: After wolf responds, I'd like you to share your outside-the-game explanations for the points I touched on in my conclusion (2 smoking guns and wolf's list).

Fair enough.

Let's look at your conclusion:

Conclusions

This is just what wolf has done as an individual. When I spoke of her earlier, I also mentioned a few things that others had done that implicated her. Together, these two types of information make her the obvious choice for today’s lynch.

In retrospect, I believe that her own actions are enough to hang her on. Particularly damning are the smoking guns I pointed out, the rarity of original opinions from her, and her mysterious list which probably doesn’t even exist. I am, of course, willing to entertain defenses but, from where I’m at right now, I doubt wolf will manage to clear herself.

Note that I am not advocating an immediate lynch. We have lots more info to gather. However, expect me to be pressuring her from here on out and, unless she somehow manages to clear herself IMO, expect me to be voting her when the day ends.

It's a bit wordy, but I think I can find your points:

-She has been implicated by the actions of

others

.
-She has exhibited several types of scumtells (according to Ythill).
-Smoking guns: lack of originality, mystery list
-We have a deadline, no reason to rush, since "we can get more info"
-Pressure her!

You cited wolf's list as a smoking gun, so they are the same here. People have time constraints which may limit their postings. Long, thorough posts are hard to schedule. As I said before, I agree (to some extent) with the lack of originality point, and I don't think that has as credible a RL reason to occur.

I have a question: How do the actions of

other

players with unknown alignment have a bearing on whether crywolf is scum?

Meanwhile... why is "outright plagiarism" scummier than standard aping? What I find suspicious about her copy-cat play is that she bases her stances on the existence of outside support rather than evidence or her own opinions about what is scummy play. I don't think the tell requires robot-like posting.

It's not robot-like when it happens. The defining characteristics are a separation of credit from the original user of the argument, and perhaps a change of target. Bonus points if it's from the same set of posts as the original. When it's just a matter of agreeing with others, it's something we all do to some extent. Plagiarism is scummier because it is taking an argument instead of making one, and using it in a different context (ie not the original one). Aping is a tendency towards weak play and needs some other substance to make it scummy.

Another question: The way you phrased "outside support rather than evidence" suggests to me that the support itself is not evidence in your opinion. What are you saying about the "outside support?"

Aha! So I'm not the only one that has noticed that. There has been several instences where you, Tommy have been either quick to defend, or quick to answer for Tony, and it hasn't been just recent. I have been keeping track of that for quiet some time now.

In this instance, wolf claims to have been tracking a behavior for some time but didn't say anything about it until someone else brought it up. In this case she may have been waiting for town support or, more likely, felt the need to pretend fore-knowledge when bionic brought up a possible link between two of her stated suspects.

Sort of WIFOMy. I don't have time to make all of my points, and I tend to try to use my better ones. Lesser things may go noticed but not commented on. I suppose something similar here. Your argument is not necessarily wrong, but it has no basis to assume scumminess, or exclude the above.

I find this phrasing interesting. Town are looking out for people who are actually acting scummy. Scum are looking out for townies who are making themselves look scummy.

I highly agree with this.

...and then, in the same post...

iamausername argues that lynching someone for anti-town behavior is not what we should be doing. Instead we should be lynching scum. I want to know what iamausername thinks the difference is in these two categories of lynch reasons.

I saw that too, but when I saw you posted it i didn't feel like quoteing it myself.

I do want to know what the difference. Yes sometimes town does give off scum vibes, but are those not the vibes you should follow to make sure that, ehem, you get the scum????

Here we have wolf citing agreement with two sides of an argument. On the surface, this suggests that she is waiting to lean whichever way the argument goes. However, having looked at a couple of points that suggest a relationship between she and Darox, this

could

be her way of discrediting his attacker while appearing to side with him. Either way, it is telling.

Note that in the last quote wolf again claims to have seen something previously but has refrained from talking about it.

This a much better quote to use. She contradicts herself by agreeing with both sides of the argument. If she highly agreed with iamausername, then she should have had her own answer to my question aimed at iamausername. Her equivocation is a sign of backpedaling, which is scummy for the reasons you presented in addition to the "changing my opinion to suit the town" scumtell. Townies tend to avoid contradicting themselves, and townie mistakes are separate from scum vibes.


In the light of that last quote, I'm going to reconsider my vote for now.

##Unvote: Ythill

[M4yhem]

Hi guys!

Just thought I'd tell you I'm reading the thread and will join in when I'm finished. It might be a couple of days. I'm up to page eight at the moment and based on that, I'm suspicious of bionicchop, crywolf and fhqwhgads.

Crywolf for all the same reasons as people yesterday- her fishing, her weak attacks and that strange vote on somebody for 'only talking'.

bionicchop- This post seemed a little too defensive for the situation:

This is a very closeminded outlook. What mods have done in the past has little bearing on what our mod has done because every mod is different. A cops sanity should never be assumed.

If you had your own answer, why bother asking me the question? The cop can do whatever they want. My opinion is - waste of time. These games last through very few nights and testing sanity is a waste of an investigation. They may as well investigate themselves.

I don't like the way she pushed a Tony wagon in this post without actually commiting to it herself. Feels like she was fishing to see if it would gain any traction, and retracted her 'suspicion' when it became clear it wouldn't.

QFT,

FOS: crywolf

For now, I'm going to believe user's claim. This does not mean, however, that I'm going to stick with that belief.

Still waiting on Lowel. Maybe this (

##unvote, ##vote: Lowel

) will help.

This seems odd- he has a legitimate reason to vote Crywolf but he foses her and pressure votes someone instead. I’d say if crywolf is scum, this guy is her buddy.

I also don’t like Darox’s votehopping.

That’s all for now, more when I’ve read more of the game. I know we’re under deadline so I’ll try to be quick.

[Ythill]

@wolf: Your waffling will not save you. Why is it that Rash understands how to respond to my case but you apparently do not?

What am I supposed to say? Basically everything you said was rhetorical.

I'm not giving you a script. Yes, my questions were rhetorical. My post, however, was not all rhetoric. I made valid points and I would expect a townie to try and refute them.

My list was over Tommy.

Then how come you said, in #426, "I'm gathering a list right now about three people: Darox, Tommy, and Tony?" Seriously wolf, did this list ever exist?

I had started to notice Tommy's behavior right as it started and I wasn't sure when was a good time. I knew I didn't wanna do it in day one, but when Bionic noticed it too I felt it was time to point out the many other times it has happened.

I will again point out your contradiction. You pushed me to reveal option (c); you called out other players for not sharing information; you seem to have demonstrated an understanding of the idea that town-players should be forthright and transparent in their play. However, you now claim that you made a

conscious decision

to keep information private. What was your reasoning for doing so? How could posting that information D1 have hurt the town?

-We have a deadline, no reason to rush, since "we can get more info"

That's a little unfair, I wasn't fear-mongering about the deadline.

-Pressure her!

This is fine, except that when linked to the last phrase in context, it suggests an untrue contradiction. I was not callng for others to pressure her, I was announcing my own intent to do so. IME, applying pressure makes scum more likley to slip up and townies more likley to post a timely, compelling defense.

You cited wolf's list as a smoking gun, so they are the same here.

Did I? The two smoking guns I remember were (1) wolf saying she's comfortable with her OMGUS vote on Lowell and (2) wolf re-voting Lowell for the same tells she'd cleared him for with her meta read. These are the two I was refering to in my conclusion.

How do the actions of

other

players with unknown alignment have a bearing on whether crywolf is scum?

I'll just point you to the last paragraph of #407 where I explained this in a little more detail. If you have further questions I will answer them.

Another question: The way you phrased "outside support rather than evidence" suggests to me that the support itself is not evidence in your opinion. What are you saying about the "outside support?"

I wasn't really taking any stance on the content of the outside support (which would require a point-by-point breakdown to be fair). Let me expand on my point. When a player cites another's points, she is either agreeing with their evidence or forming her stance based on popular opinion. When a player is scumhunting honestly, I usually see a mixture of agreement and original opinions. You, for example, have cited agreement with several people but you have also made your own unique points (example: your case against me).

When a player fails to make original or contentious points, but seems more focused on agreement with others, I believe it suggests heavily that they are more worried about popular opinion than evidence. Wolf's play has been a textbook example of this. Do you understand me now?

I don't have time to make all of my points, and I tend to try to use my better ones. Lesser things may go noticed but not commented on. I suppose something similar here. Your argument is not necessarily wrong, but it has no basis to assume scumminess, or exclude the above.

Your counter-point could have been valid at the time of my argument, but wolf didn't cite time constraints in her explanation (see above). Furthermore,

possible

townie motivation for an action is just as assumptive as

possible

scummy motivation. The difference here is that the sheer number of serious tells suggests that scummy motivation is more likley.

[bionicchop2]

I would say the case against crywolf is far greater than any other current case right now and I would like for any player who is not voting wolf to explain their current vote and why they feel that player is more likely to be scum.

I see everything wolf has done as an attempt to blend in. To me the most damning evidence is the persistent re-voting of Lowell over the course of day 1 while agreeing with several arguments against other people. Her vote was always ready to go back to Lowell, but pulled off any time it seemed momentum might shift to another person.

Her post content contains many items which are scummy (although there are many which can be townie mistakes appearing scummy). There are repeated instances of evaluations to come followed by reasons for delaying. Her game seems geared around not gaining much attention. The recent dismissal of a full PbPA against her and the decision it did not need ANY form of response is shocking. She had a case ready against Tommy, but didn't want to post it until after I commented on his actions? Does she have a case ready for every player that she can use if anybody else suspects them? That just seems odd.

[fhqwhgads]

My vote on Darox is pretty well documented, I believe. I have, however, stated that it won't be difficult to swing my vote to crywolf. Especially regarding her recent actions. Her total unwillingness to answer the points Ythill made even when I deliberately asked her about certain points really does not bode well for her.

My suspicion on Darox will remain. My suspicion on crywolf has surpassed it though.

##unvote, ##vote: Crywolf

[gorckat]

Vote Count

(6 to lynch)

crywolf (4):

Ythill, bionic, TonyMontana, fhqwhgads

TonyMontana (2):

Darox, Oman

Tommy:

crywolf

Not voting (2):

M4yhem, Tommy, Rashiminos

Possible replacement for Tommy in the works. Updates as they happen.

[gorckat]

Vote Count

(6 to lynch)

crywolf (4):

Ythill, bionic, TonyMontana, fhqwhgads

TonyMontana (2):

Darox, Oman

pickemgenius :

crywolf

Not voting (2):

M4yhem, pickemgenius , Rashiminos

**pickemgenius replaces Tommy**