Micro 1013: IMoA [game over!]

[sang froid]

Top post of this page nsg links to a post claiming that moongrass outed me as her partner. Following the link, it’s moon saying she crumbed in her first post. Her first post is a vote on me, which in conjunction with that and the mason claim means she’s claiming me as her mason buddy. I’m not a mason

[VFP]

Yeah there's no reason for us to vote outside of the neibours with a Mason claim. Otherwise town effectively have 2 sets of masons, which I don't buy.

neighbors are not effectively masons.

If both are town they really can be.
The second you can read the other as town you are basically masons.

Do you town read Andre?

[VFP]

Hi ta vera.

M

ay I

a

sk for

s

ome of your

o

pinions

n

ow?

I think Moon means this one.

[northsidegal]

Yeah there's no reason for us to vote outside of the neibours with a Mason claim. Otherwise town effectively have 2 sets of masons, which I don't buy.

neighbors are not effectively masons.

If both are town they really can be.
The second you can read the other as town you are basically masons.

Do you town read Andre?

no, they're not. the strength in masons comes from being

confirmed town

to each other, not the communication aspect. do you know what would

actually

be similar to masons? two people who knew each other so well that they could both very strongly claim that the other is town, and convince other people on that as well.

from a setup balance perspective, neighbors are simply not comparable to masons. they're just not.

[sang froid]

Hi ta vera.

M

ay I

a

sk for

s

ome of your

o

pinions

n

ow?

I think Moon means this one.

Oh

Ohhhhh

VOTE: andres

[sang froid]

that's an honest question I don't know the answer to it but I haven't seen it so if someone could should me a game where NSG scum gets mad and yells at people I'd love to see it.

meta is trash, but nsg is very town regardless

[VFP]

no, they're not. the strength in masons comes from being confirmed town to each other, not the communication aspect. do you know what would actually be similar to masons? two people who knew each other so well that they could both very strongly claim that the other is town, and convince other people on that as well.

from a setup balance perspective, neighbors are simply not comparable to masons. they're just not.

No, having the ability to discuss thoughts in a PT is where the main power of a Mason is.
This is the same from 2 neibours who town read each other. Stop making out that this isn't strong.

I'll ask again, do you town read Andre?

[sang froid]

I think nsg is exclusively scum with sigmund in any worlds where she is scum

[sang froid]

-shrug-

sigmund asked why not sang, and i gave the reason from my perspective. you might be right. if i'm wrong then it's unfortunate that i'm not voting VFP instead of sang.

or, the other way around.

mildly baffled and moderately disappointed that you’re not TRing me, nsg

[sang froid]

That’s the time I had, might have a few minutes later

[northsidegal]

no, they're not. the strength in masons comes from being confirmed town to each other, not the communication aspect. do you know what would actually be similar to masons? two people who knew each other so well that they could both very strongly claim that the other is town, and convince other people on that as well.

from a setup balance perspective, neighbors are simply not comparable to masons. they're just not.

No, having the ability to discuss thoughts in a PT is where the main power of a Mason is.
This is the same from 2 neibours who town read each other. Stop making out that this isn't strong.

I'll ask again, do you town read Andre?

on what basis can you assert the claim that the main power of masons is the private communication aspect, such that two neighbors who townread each other are comparable in strength? what sort of logic, evidence or authority allows you to make such a claim?

a 9 person 2 mason otherwise vanilla game is

roughly

balanced. i'd say the same thing about a 9 person 2 IC game, or a 9 person game where two people were separately informed the other was town but with no ability to communicate. a 9 person game with a 2 person town neighborhood is

nowhere near

the power level of the rest of those games. i think that if you ask anyone who looks at open games often they'd say the same thing. i think that if you asked anyone who's a part of the normal review group, of which i am, they'd say the same thing. i think that, logically, it makes sense to say that the actual power of masons rests in the fact that they can stop the other from being eliminated by virtue of testament to the other person's towniness, which you could replicate in the scenario i described last post by having two people with great reads on each other but no communication power, and is thus non-specific to the private communication aspect.


yes, i think andres is more likely town than not.

[northsidegal]

let me be clear about something – i'm talking from a

setup balance

perspective. if you take two people who get a super strong townread on each other and can convince the rest of the town on that, they

actually are

of a similar power level to masons! this is one of the reasons why i'm of the opinion that being a highly effective townie isn't just about "hard carrying" through scumreads or whatever, you can be super effective in raising winrates of games that you're in just by getting reliable townreads and protecting them, or making sure that you yourself aren't lynched as town.

the key insight here, though, is that this isn't

specific to the setup

, it's just a function of the players regardless of the setup. in terms of

setup balance

, neighbors are basically always a wash unless considering interactions with other roles. two people who are neighbors

could

become like masons if they got super strong townreads on each other and convinced the town of such, but that has basically nothing to do with them being neighbors, and the private communication aspect adds very little to it.

[northsidegal]

-shrug-

sigmund asked why not sang, and i gave the reason from my perspective. you might be right. if i'm wrong then it's unfortunate that i'm not voting VFP instead of sang.

or, the other way around.

mildly baffled and moderately disappointed that you’re not TRing me, nsg

-shrug-

[Moongrass]

I think we're getting distracted with comparing masons to neighbours which isn't the original argument. The argument is that a game with two confirmed town and an additional PT with two town seems unbalanced which leads me to think that it is more like to be TvS in the neighbor PT.

[Moongrass]

I could be way off base here but independent of my moon mechspec, I think Andre is scummy based on the reasons I gave leading to the wagon on him. I don't want to be the asshole that lims someone because they have a life but I'm over ate/lack of WIM as a defense here.

[sang froid]

-shrug-

sigmund asked why not sang, and i gave the reason from my perspective. you might be right. if i'm wrong then it's unfortunate that i'm not voting VFP instead of sang.

or, the other way around.

mildly baffled and moderately disappointed that you’re not TRing me, nsg

-shrug-

I mean, reading between the lines one might realise this is an invitation to e x p a n d on that read

[Datisi]

vote count 1.19

with 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-06-01 17:15:00).

execution

Andresvmb [4]:

Iconeum, VFP, Moongrass, sang froid

VFP [3]:

Andresvmb, northsidegal, Sigmund

northsidegal [1]:

UneveN

not voting [1]:

Something_Smart

mod notes

~ iconeum v/la weekends

flavour

Spoiler:

[Moongrass]

VOTE: VFP

[VFP]

We're not voting away from the neibours. There's no way I believe they are T/T with masons.
I'm town mailman though since I'm E1.

[Moongrass]

Unknown hammer it.

[VFP]

What's unknown?

And no. We lim in the neibours.

[Moongrass]

Uneven, SS or Sang please hammer. If they flip red > Ico > SS. If green revisit neighbors.

Sorry buddy, it's game over now.

[VFP]

For the record, Datisi is a scum sided mod as confirmed the last game.
If you think masons plus 2 town neibours against a mailman is scum sided, then there's not much to say.

[VFP]

In what world do I claim mailman as scum instead of VT or a power like PT cop here?

[Moongrass]

Angleshooty, I like it but uh I have reason to believe it's a fake claim.