Newbie 682 - Mayhem in Umore - Game Over, Scum Win!

[caf19]

Also why do you feel there is no need for a vote, random or otherwise?

1. Random voting isn't compulsory
2. This game moved out of the 'totally random votes' stage rapidly - there were real things to discuss. An unrelated vote would seem out of place.
3. I like to take my time and provide a (hopefully) measured analysis. Therefore, I'd prefer to wait before voting, at least until everyone's checked in and I've had a bit of time to think. Is that ok?

- your post was simply a theory discussion.

Not that there's anything wrong with theory posts this early on... but yeah, I guess so, I didn't really put any accusations into that post. So, for the record, my suspicion was aroused by your vote for Mirth followed by chastising someone else for doing the same. I happen to think that dejkha's behaviour can be at least partially excused by his status as a fresh n00b - and, as I said, L-2 doesn't really bother me. So, it seemed slightly like you were setting him up. Your renouncing of the initial case adds to this, in my opinion. I'm sure you won't object to my not voting for you at this stage, though...

- you didnt discuss on Mirth wagon

Actually, I think I made my view that there wasn't much to it pretty clear.

- you didnt discuss on Dej wagon

A wagon consisting at the time of 0 votes? How peculiar.

[nureins]

So, for the record, my suspicion was aroused by your vote for Mirth followed by chastising someone else for doing the same. I happen to think that dejkha's behaviour can be at least partially excused by his status as a fresh n00b. So, it seemed slightly like you were setting him up.

Yes, I "provoked" it. Indeed, I declared it openly later. Cannot see how this can be bad. Im not pursuing any lynching of Dej. Just testing how people behave...

Indeed, before you, I interpreted his words as noob and therefore, partially lowering my mild suspicion for casting a third vote on a row.

With respect to your behavior, you were too much theoretical for my taste in a first post, I expect more seeking/hunting but obviously just a first post, so nothing relevant. Now it is clear, and obviously, my bad with Dej's wagon, you couldnt obviously comment something that hadent happened.

[Mirth]

@Experienced Mirth: Why do you find me suspicious for setting a trap to launch discussion ? I immediately unvoted you and fossed dej which gives a clear message of how stupid I considered my first "case" on you.

The use of meta is what is suspicious here. This may be a personal quirk of mine, but I hate going on meta when there is nothing else to go by. Your attempt at discussion, if that is what it is, was a downright accusation based on meta, and incomplete meta at that. If you looked through my games enough to find where I modvoted or not, which you obviously must have to get the two you refer to, you must have come across the two I refer to too, and thus could not have been asking your question in good faith. As for the unvote, that could be any number of things, including trying to get brownie points from the town. I shall look at it once more when I'm ready to form an actual opinion of you (after page 5).

However, we need to disentangle if Dej is simply a total noob. Notice that he is suggesting in his answer that Day 1 is gonna finish quickly with random votes' stage...

Yeah, to me it doesn't seem like, on Day 1, most votes aren't influenced by anything since the game just started. I figured I'd go with any possible lead rather than taking an "eeny meeny miny moe" route. Obviously, I think I just learned that suspicion can arise easier than I thought lol.

And obviously this post is saying a whole lot of nothing. Here, by your wording, one would assume you're claiming randomness in your vote on me, even if it was a lead, but you ignore my vote on you and you don't address whether L-2 was warranted. Please address these issues.

Also why do you feel there is no need for a vote, random or otherwise?

1. Random voting isn't compulsory
2. This game moved out of the 'totally random votes' stage rapidly - there were real things to discuss. An unrelated vote would seem out of place.
3. I like to take my time and provide a (hopefully) measured analysis. Therefore, I'd prefer to wait before voting, at least until everyone's checked in and I've had a bit of time to think. Is that ok?

Fair enough. I actually hate RVS myself, but participate in it when needed since it's useful.

Also nothing wrong with theory as long as there is playing involved somewhere. I agree about not liking Nur's post.

[nureins]

The use of meta is what is suspicious here.

I dont like either random votes. So I use any excuse to vote and provoke debate. It has been so in the two previous games I have played in mafiascum, it has been so in this one, it will be so in all I play...

If I had said "Joke vote due to this meta !!", i wouldnt have appeared as suspicious, but I wouldnt have gotten any debate or traps.

My objective was not to accuse you, but to provoke debate/trap. The couple of examples I found were enough and I didnt find the other ones you are mentioning. But if I had done, I would not have used them in any case, since I was not building a case on you...

Clearly, I prefer to analyze you with lot of time and pages and even in this case, I guess Ill not obtain many reads. This is what newbie games are for, suppose.

[Mirth]

I dont like either random votes. So I use any excuse to vote and provoke debate. It has been so in the two previous games I have played in mafiascum, it has been so in this one, it will be so in all I play...

If I had said "Joke vote due to this meta !!", i wouldnt have appeared as suspicious, but I wouldnt have gotten any debate or traps.

This bothers me. Why are you concerned about appearing suspicious?

[nureins]

This bothers me. Why are you concerned about appearing suspicious?

I dont. So I voted you and provoked the debate/trap.

[ChuckNorris]

Sorry guys. Was at school. Didn't have a chance to look since yesterday! Anyway i'll

Unvote:Mirth

-The random stage looks as if it has descended to the depths.

Nuriens-

It seems like Nureins could be onto something.

Vote: Mirth

Newbie game, 3 posts. L-2. No no...

Unvote

Dejkha jumped in the wagon but stated very clearly it was another's case. Do you think my case was so important as to risk a lynch in first page ? especially taking into account this is a newbie game...

FOS: Dejkha

This could be one of 2 things--1) Very Nervous Scum trying to get the townies to befriend him.
2) Nervous Town trying not to look like scum.

I'm not sure which at the moment but there is a post later on that I would like to question...

ChuckNorris answered the natural way.
Dej answered in a suspicious way.

Question: What do you mean by natural and suspicious way?
This could be an attempt to look like a really pro-town town(=P), when he's actually scum.

Dej-I'm curious as to why you voted to actually make Mirth at L-1. That could have been a fatal move, yet it could have possibly revealed scum(presuming that newb scum hammered). To be honest I think we wre lucky that the scum didn't hammer. Otherwise we would be stuck tbh.

Mirth- I agree with you a Meta, I don't personally like it. Nothing really to say on you. Apart from maybe you were a bit touchy in defending yourself, but that isn't a reason for even a MinorFoS.

cute.without.e- L-2 is (Lynch minus 2, which means that we need 2 votes to lynch someone) What are your thoughts on Nuriens' Meta-ing and Dej putting Mirth at L-1?

Mr Avacado- I'm not sure on this guy. I find it slightly scummy that he has immediately joing on the Wagon of Dej, without much of a reason. The same as Dej really.

Serous- Lurker. Nothing more to say.

Caj-

- your post was simply a theory discussion.

Not that there's anything wrong with theory posts this early on... but yeah, I guess so, I didn't really put any accusations into that post. So, for the record,

my suspicion was aroused by your vote for Mirth followed by chastising someone else for doing the same

. I happen to think that dejkha's behaviour can be at least partially excused by his status as a fresh n00b - and, as I said, L-2 doesn't really bother me. So, it seemed slightly like you were setting him up. Your renouncing of the initial case adds to this, in my opinion. I'm sure you won't object to my not voting for you at this stage, though...

Very good point Caf. I totally agree with your suspicion now. But otherwise there isn't much else I can think of about you atm.


So here is my list of what I think everyones roles are...

Maifa

Nuriens-Even though it isn't very high suspicion, he is more suspicious than anyone else at the momnt, in my view.
Dej/Mr Avacado- Both voting yet not really explaining why. Notice how both were in Bandwagons? Mafia trying to keep their heads down?

Town

Me- Because I know i'm pro-town.
Mirth/Caf- Both posting alot of quite helpfull evidence. Imo the most, apart from me =P, town like people.

Not sure about...

cute.without.e- I have a slight town vibe about this person.
Serous- Hasn't posted.
seb456zig- Hasn't posted.


For some of the theories in the earlier part of this post, they are all theories. There is no concrete evidence yet.

This is chuck norris signing out!

[nureins]

This could be one of 2 things--1) Very Nervous Scum trying to get the townies to befriend him.
2) Nervous Town trying not to look like scum.

If you talk of me, you forgot 3: An active (town) player.

Question: What do you mean by natural and suspicious way?

natural townie way: relativize and put in perspective. analyze, scrutinize, make it rational...

suspicious way: use it for wagoning without a serious reflection, voting, moving to L-2 in first page...

----

Now a question for chuck. If my first vote game made two wagons to appear, and two persons to wagon so quickly inspiring for suspicions (one of them noted by myself immediately), which part of my behavior is suspicious? how can be my attitude not pro-town?

I like the Nureins/Dej/MrAvacado vs Mirth/Caf/chuck game you have proposed. So quick, so fast, so nice. Even with RED-BLUE colours (obviously, adding that suspicions are very mild blablabla). Sounds quite dichotomic to me, and dichotomy is a synonimous of simplification, and for page 2, this is really a synonimous of not pro-town tell...

[ChuckNorris]

This could be one of 2 things--1) Very Nervous Scum trying to get the townies to befriend him.
2) Nervous Town trying not to look like scum.

If you talk of me, you forgot 3: An active (town) player.

Good point. We do need more contributions from some.

Question: What do you mean by natural and suspicious way?

natural townie way: relativize and put in perspective. analyze, scrutinize, make it rational...

suspicious way: use it for wagoning without a serious reflection, voting, moving to L-2 in first page...

Thank you for answering.

Now a question for chuck. If my first vote game made two wagons to appear, and two persons to wagon so quickly inspiring for suspicions (one of them noted by myself immediately), which part of my behavior is suspicious? how can be my attitude not pro-town?

If you are asking how can your attitude not be pro town, I didn't say that.
In reply to you other question, Your suspicious action was how yuo voted for Mirth and then when someone else did the same, you immediately started suspecting them. That is a slight scumtell for me. Even if it was to be at L-1 it still probably was a newbie not realising the dnager of that vote.

I like the Nureins/Dej/MrAvacado vs Mirth/Caf/chuck game you have proposed. So quick, so fast, so nice. Even with RED-BLUE colours (obviously, adding that suspicions are very mild blablabla). Sounds quite dichotomic to me, and dichotomy is a synonimous of simplification, and for page 2, this is really a synonimous of not pro-town tell...

"this is really a synonimous of not pro-town tell..."- I don't really understand this.

Also the 3v3 was totally unintended. Also I can't help if 2 people are lurking and I can't have an opinion on someone who hasn't said anything. The Red, Blue colours was nothing to do with Tactics. Was just to make it look better.

[ChuckNorris]

EBWOP: The only reason you were top on Mafia was because you are more experienced than the other 2 it looks like. It was really close between you and the other 2.

[nureins]

If you are asking how can your attitude not be pro town, I didn't say that.
In reply to you other question, Your suspicious action was how yuo voted for Mirth and then when someone else did the same, you immediately started suspecting them. That is a slight scumtell for me. Even if it was to be at L-1 it still probably was a newbie not realising the dnager of that vote.

The newbie put Mirth at L-2, not L-1.

- You voted for Mirth randomly.
- I voted for Mirth just to generate discussion and seeing reactions.
- Dej voted for Mirth on the basis of a not-very-serious analysis putting her at L-2.

Once Dej casted his vote, the objectives of my vote were achieved, and the suspicious thing would have been to mantain the vote at the (weak) risk of quicklynch present.

Also the 3v3 was totally unintended. Also I can't help if 2 people are lurking and I can't have an opinion on someone who hasn't said anything. The Red, Blue colours was nothing to do with Tactics. Was just to make it look better.

These are the irrelevant parts of my comment. The relevant one is that you built so quickly two categories (mafia vs non-mafia) and you included people there without almost anything as a basis. Indeed, you are saying now that Dej is probably a townie, so hardly he can be in your mafia list. He has only done one thing (putting Mirth at L-2) and you are explaining it as a newbie thing, thus, no relevant suspicion.

Not very serious suspicions but very elaborated categories (bad vs good) serious words (mafia, non-mafia) and ornamental framing (colours, remarking the difference)...

[ChuckNorris]

Ok I appologise for that newbie mistake. =S Sozzles. Anyway I totally take back the Mafia Town list.

About the L-2 thing, I played on anohe site where it took 4 votes to lynch. Whoops.

Now I think about it I would like to here from Mr Avacado. Why did you vote Dej? Why haven't you posted much? What do you think about everyone so far?

[Mirth]

I can see this will be a rather fast paced game.

Chuck, 31: why unvote me? What your L-3 vote on me actually hurting anyone or do you have a better place to throw it? Dej didn't put me at L-1 and I'm not defending myself so much as pointing out Nur's inconsistencies. (After all, I have mod voted as scum too.) Serous is a lurker? Really? The game barely started. Please don't start with the "they're a lurker! evil!" yet. Not everyone has as much time as you to post and its not lurking if they never show up in the first place. I don't like this lurker accusation from you. Also, as we are on page 2, it is too early to actually form a list of suspicion, especially considering not everyone has checked in yet and I object to two things about your list. 1)CAF and I will be by definition helpful and engaged, as we are the ICs. This is what we signed up to do. This does not make us town, just ICs. Be suspicious of everyone, including us. 2) please don't post your town reads unless a)you are replacing into a game and responding to a lot of backlog and thus should give everyone else the courtesy of your opinion or b)there is an actual need for defending someone.

Nur, 32: agreed that it's oversimplified. Not too sure if I like the wording of the first part of this post though.

Chuck, 33: First, Nur unvoted after Dej jumped on pointlessly. This can be valid. Second, experience does not make a person more or less scummy, just experienced.

Nur, 35: good posting.

Chuck, 36: you just played the newbie card again. The first time you did it for others, so I let it slide. You just played it for yourself. You earn and FOS. And seriously, maybe Mr. Avacado hasn't posted much yet because he hasn't had time to. I'm not liking this rushing of other players. Game barely started. I myself am a rather posty player, but if other people don't post as much, it is not an issue if they actually post regularly and make contentfull posts. (I.e. if someone posts once a day or once every 2 days, this is fine, and not necessarily lurking, and lurking is not always scummy, btw, it is mostly a null tell. Content over quantity.

[ChuckNorris]

I can see this will be a rather fast paced game.

Chuck, 31: why unvote me? What your L-3 vote on me actually hurting anyone or do you have a better place to throw it? Dej didn't put me at L-1 and I'm not defending myself so much as pointing out Nur's inconsistencies. (After all, I have mod voted as scum too.) Serous is a lurker? Really? The game barely started. Please don't start with the "they're a lurker! evil!" yet. Not everyone has as much time as you to post and its not lurking if they never show up in the first place. I don't like this lurker accusation from you. Also, as we are on page 2, it is too early to actually form a list of suspicion, especially considering not everyone has checked in yet and I object to two things about your list. 1)CAF and I will be by definition helpful and engaged, as we are the ICs. This is what we signed up to do. This does not make us town, just ICs. Be suspicious of everyone, including us. 2) please don't post your town reads unless a)you are replacing into a game and responding to a lot of backlog and thus should give everyone else the courtesy of your opinion or b)there is an actual need for defending someone.

Nur, 32: agreed that it's oversimplified. Not too sure if I like the wording of the first part of this post though.

Chuck, 33: First, Nur unvoted after Dej jumped on pointlessly. This can be valid. Second, experience does not make a person more or less scummy, just experienced.

Nur, 35: good posting.

Chuck, 36: you just played the newbie card again. The first time you did it for others, so I let it slide. You just played it for yourself. You earn and FOS. And seriously, maybe Mr. Avacado hasn't posted much yet because he hasn't had time to. I'm not liking this rushing of other players. Game barely started. I myself am a rather posty player, but if other people don't post as much, it is not an issue if they actually post regularly and make contentfull posts. (I.e. if someone posts once a day or once every 2 days, this is fine, and not necessarily lurking, and lurking is not always scummy, btw, it is mostly a null tell. Content over quantity.

31-I took away my vote as it was a

random

vote. As the randam stage is over, I decded that I would take my vote off. Anything scummy about that?
33- What I meant was that, the fact he was more experienced, could mean that if he was Mafia he would be more dangerous than newbies, probably.
36- Mr Avacado, I was just asking him questions for when he does post. I was not pressuring him in any way whatsoever. If it came across that way then, I didn't mean it to. In your own time Mr Avacado(

not

sarcasticly said)

[Mirth]

Nothing wrong with unvoting, your reaction to my question seems on edge though. Why?

[dejkha]

vote:dejkha

this vote should be obvious as it is *not* random. Placing a third vote on me on page 1 saying Nuereins has a lead before I even responded and then saying you don't want to accidentally lynch town.

I don't wanna accidently lynch town because of a random vote. I'd much rather it be because of a mistake I made with the reason I went with (nureins post). Even though it seems like you did explain yourself, I'm gonna take even the smallest lead I can get. If I unvote, I'll be right back to a mostly random vote. If someone else gives me a reason to suspect them, then I'll change my vote, but until then I won't.

I'd rather accidentally lynch town because of bad judgement in my reasoning, than because I didn't like someones face or something ridiculous like that >_>

In any event, it doesn't really seem to matter since there seems to be no convincing any of you.

[nureins]

@ Chucky

You havent answered a question, maybe because I didnt formulate it precisely. So, let me do it properly.

...it still probably was a newbie not realising the dnager of that vote.

1. Why did you include Dej in your list of mafia if you have this opinion ?

And now I have a couple of extra questions. Among all your words, I only found this explanation of why my attitude could be scummy (if I am mistaken, please tell me where else I can find you signalling my scumminess)

This could be one of 2 things--1) Very Nervous Scum trying to get the townies to befriend him.
2) Nervous Town trying not to look like scum.

So,

2. Which is the way in which I tried to get the townies to befriend me ?? Scumhunting ? This can only be good for town...
So, at the end, the question is why my behavior was suspicious of being scummy. Can you explain it ? I need to understand which scumtell you have in mind...[/u]

[nureins]

If I unvote, I'll be right back to a mostly random vote. If someone else gives me a reason to suspect them, then I'll change my vote, but until then I won't.

So essentially:

- The initial post was nothing (a provoking post simply, a kind of joke vote).
- The person who wrote it is telling that this post meant nothing, and that there is nothing scummy in Mirth voting the mod.
- Mirth answered adequately.

Therefore, you have nothing on Mirth and basically, you are random-voting her. But you prefer to mantain the vote and not change it to anyone else.
Are you really saying that you havent read anything minimally suspicious in these two pages? According to your words, whatever minimally suspicious is better than a random-vote for you...

[dejkha]

I might consider your behavior slightly suspicious because you lured me into a sort of trap and now everyones against me. It's hard to tell if you're scum and trying to turn everyone against me or if it was an innocent act of suspicion. Those kind of cancel each other out, but I may end up changing my vote to you, if I'm convinced.

[nureins]

...

I would call that OMGUS suspicion.

I didnt lure "you" onto anything. You entered yourself alone, I wasnt thinking in you particularly. other people didnt enter (for instance chucky). And though minimally, this entrance was a signal of suspicion. Indeed, from the people who is suspecting of you, I am more inclined to think you are newbie (and therefore your action less suspicious) than other people.

If you are a townie, I really suggest you to read a bit WIKI about OMGUS...and then come back and read the game with a fresh air...

[dejkha]

I know you weren't targeting me or anything. I meant in general, since it was kind of a set up to see if someone would go along with it. Since I did, everyone's all over me. As I said earlier, I can't tell if it was an innocent act of suspicion or if you're scum and was trying to use that to turn the rest against a certain person. I'll need more time to judge. Even if I do end up changing my vote to you, you'll be all over me for that to, thinking its a OMGUS vote.

[seb456zig]

Vote: Mirth

Im 1 in the crowd and if he dies, i dont
HORAY
soz Mirth but ur unpopular.

[seb456zig]

lol, i shood realy pay attention.
i didnt even look at page 2
wow, i am noob.
soz, i think.

Unvote

and i guess we shood kill off nureins.

Vote: nureins

btw i think we shood give evry1 a chance.
"Innocent until proven otherwise"

[Mirth]

vote:dejkha

this vote should be obvious as it is *not* random. Placing a third vote on me on page 1 saying Nuereins has a lead before I even responded and then saying you don't want to accidentally lynch town.

I don't wanna accidently lynch town because of a random vote. I'd much rather it be because of a mistake I made with the reason I went with (nureins post). Even though it seems like you did explain yourself, I'm gonna take even the smallest lead I can get. If I unvote, I'll be right back to a mostly random vote. If someone else gives me a reason to suspect them, then I'll change my vote, but until then I won't.

I'd rather accidentally lynch town because of bad judgement in my reasoning, than because I didn't like someones face or something ridiculous like that >_>

In any event, it doesn't really seem to matter since there seems to be no convincing any of you.

I'm not asking you to unvote me. Never did. I just think your vote is a load of crap in that Nur's "reason" is a load of hogwash that is null and void. Yet you are clinging to it. If you were to vote me for something I actually said in this game, I would be taking absolutely no issue with you. I also don't like the "if I accidently lynch town" thing. What reasoning do you have here, exactly?

I also really don't like 43. At all. You accuse him of intentionally turning people against you, yet even if he was setting a "trap" (not sure I buy this, btw), how would he know who would stumble into it? Therefore you can't accuse him of setting a trap for you specifically. Also it is your play that is antitown, so whatever his provocation is, it still doesn't matter, because it is ultimately your play.

I see Nur already covered the above in 44 though...

I don't like Dej's whole "you all hate me" schtick.

Vote: Mirth

Im 1 in the crowd and if he dies, i dont
HORAY
soz Mirth but ur unpopular.

First of all, I am a she. Second of all, wtf? What is this post supposed to mean? In your next post you say you missed the second page, so you're wagoning for the sake of wagoning here. This bothers me immensely since you're ready to kill this early in the game before everyone has even turned up. And "you can die so I don't" is in no way protown. Your unvote also bothers me since you admit to not paying attention and then vote Nur without giving a reason ready to kill him off. If you think we should give everyone a chance, why are you ready to kill now?

unvote:dej
vote:seb

[seb456zig]

What is this post supposed to mean? In your next post you say you missed the second page, so you're wagoning for the sake of wagoning here.

unvote:dej
vote:seb

I believe that it isn't entirely wagoning just because i agree with points people make. I try to gain trust, try to tell the truth and try to kill mafia, not confuse or mislead. There isn't much proof on anyone or anything and this being my first game I assume that the majority is smarter than me and with a small amount of people my vote really does count. I don't want to make the wrong decision. I hope you'll understand.