Mini 660 - Star Trek: DS9 Mafia (Ruined = Over)

[Timeater]

edwop: he may send*

[Timeater]

hahhahahhahhahah ninja'd by the overanaylzer. lol is he trying to fos every post I make? moment, reading

[Timeater]

I will address posts that you 'deem scummy' with direct answers. This will both save time and effort on my part, because I'm really not dedicated enough to go through every post with a response. I guess being a big boy will always make other people suspect you of being scum.

So is everyone to take your word on what is null, townie, and scummy? Are you the mafia grandmaster to which you are infallible in all practical judgement? Do I have to do a biased pbpa on you to show the exact same thing? That I can construe almost every post you have made as scummy? Because I can if you want. Your analyzation is sort of laughable. I mean, you clearly assess townie posts as "null" when it suits you, because you refuse to come to grips with the fact with the evidence - I'm town. You've already made up your mind so you wont bother taking everything into consideration. Tsk.

Not a fan of point-by-points because pettifoggery and semantics boil down the conversation to a primordial ooze, leaving out things like intuition, current standing, passion, and feeling. When you squibble over small points you often forget the bigger picture.

Anyway:

The Point By Point:

Post 107: Claims Jeb is trying to rationalize scum mistakes, but admits he could be wrong. Seems like an out.... Slightly pro town, but second part reads as scummy to me.

Yes. I'm "only human" as you so frankly put in one of your posts. I can make mistakes and I admitted to that.

Post 121:“I have the biggest post count in the thread so far”How in Dante’s nine circles of hell is this relevant? He FoS Sekinj for “bandwagoning” Look, even if I admit (and I do) that voting you because other people are voting you is stupid and wrong, I have to admit that his other thoughts are ...okay. Premature, but good. And you paretically chastise him for thinking . . . which looks bad on your part. *IF* you are not scum, let him snoop around and be able to securely say in his mind: He looks town. But, your reaction is slightly scummy. Some garbage on Jeb.’s claim being believable or not, and that will determine his lynchability.

Its relevant because I was the one actively posting the most, actively driving the conversation. This pretty much been the case the entire game until recently (I've lost a little interest). Its relevant because very very very rarely will a scummer stick out their necks like I have. I'm not looking back through the thread here, but if I chastised someone for "thinking" I'm sorry, I was probably out of line. I admit I'm not the most kosher player, I can get personal-attacky sometimes and I can get nasty.

“I'm sorry for posting alot and trying to be helpful?” Okay, let me count: 25 posts (thus far). . . 9 of those are completely useless/pointless (and some of those are helpful, but not with content). Seriously, posting a lot=\= helpful. A few more are not much better than completely useless. *Note, Sekinj’s immediate response was this too. Personally, I think Sekinj should have pushed this further, but whatever.*

A post is never useless so long as it drives conversation and keeps the game active. Not every post has to be mafia related, scumhunting, a debate, or a whatever. Four, five? People have asked to be replaced so far. Anything that ensures conversation and keeps them around is a good thing. I'm from that school of mafia philosophy. Old school.

Post 202: Votes for Jeb for the reason that there are 9 main characters and Vic isn’t one of them. This is scummy to me for the sole reason that making all of the pro town players the main cast is a stupid idea. If that were the case, I would mass claim, and lynch everyone who’s claims seems odd. Additionally, he is hinting that he is going to claim a main cast character (otherwise, he would realize that non main cast players are in the game.) Gr... I don’t like this post... so, slightly scummy.

I once accosted Liam saying that a mass claim was a bad idea. I'm not so sure anymore. I actually think we could probably win if everyone followed through with it. But I dont like metagaming, and I dont like mass claims. I would rather see the game played through normally without "breaking" it. And yes, I was breadcrumbing in that post. Not scummy.

He then goes back on post 202 saying that there are more popular minor characters to pick... which... is slightly scummy because he back tracks on his reason for voting Jeb, but he refuses to consider that Vic is viable claim because of more popular characters.. Since when has a character’s lack of popularity been a reason to vote someone claiming that character.. Especially when it is a tracker role...

At the time, I was still trying to work out if Jebus could be scum or not. Consider it thinking out loud. I was startled by the Vic Fontaine role, obviously seeded in to help scum claims which it did. And what I mean by that is that scum cannot easily claim a major role on the series without fear of retrobution or a counter claim - so Delibird seeded in a few minor roles in the town so minor character claims would not seem so implausible.

Post 331: Defends Quark as a good guy. Asks to be trusted because “he knows what he is doing” and is “generally good at it[scumhunting]” Yeah, I doubt you are town, at the moment, so I won’t be doing either. This seems like a misguided townie argument, or scum trying to get the masses to follow him. (Masses being our little town, of course.)

Isn't it tempting to think that I'm the big bad scum mastermind who has been orchestrating this whole game for my own evil plans? Man, I wish. I believe in trying to get townies to associate with one another and work together and build bonds, intellectual ones, that will stand the test of a scum-post-attack, or a scum-wagon. Scum tell? You decide!

Post 354: “Vote: Sekinj For various reasons, some being apart of m4yhem's arguement.” (Cept, his vote was bolded, just didn’t want to confuse mod.)Okay, this is crap. And when I pointed out the fact that this is crap, he responds: Post 359: “Retrobution FoS on Light-Kun for trying to make it seem that my lack of content is suspicious” and “Do I really have to make super detailed posts every time I vote?” No, you do not, but if you have “various reasons” but only “some” are part of someone else’s arguments, then you clearly have your own reasons. SHARE THEM. (Note, I didn’t vote him or even FoS him, I comment that his post is suspicious because he claims to have more reasons but doesn’t post them.)

This will be the first time I concede that something I've done could be construed as scummy. It was the result of burnout, really. I had been posting alot up to that point and to be honest I was just getting tired. I wagoned sekinj and I didnt feel like writing a decent post. So sue me. To make the town feel better:

- Very two-faced. One moment she'll be joking around, the next she'll be saying "this is mafia, not pre-school, if you dont like it join a newbie game" Sure this can be intepreted many different ways, and the coin can even be flipped on me, but something about her seems off.
- Quick to jump on wagons e.g jebus & zone.
- I dont know really, something is just off about sekinj. My gut is telling me something is wrong about her. The last time I ignored my gut, it cost town the game (recently closed mental war mafia). I dont want that to happen again.

Post 398: Questions my vote on Liam. (Well, and I don’t think you were paying attention the first time, so I post this again: I don’t watch DS9, so who the f**k is Quark, and why is he town? Secondly, Liam, himself, said that character claims are useless and someone else mentioned that it only helps scum figure out the town’s abilities. Third, he made a post that can be seen as suspect, and I voted him *UNTIL* he replied, which is the only reason I voted him at all...*ROAR*)

Kitty goes MEOW! I have every right to question your vote on Liam. How could you not know who Quark is by now. You've taken the time to write these extremely long pbpa's but you haven't taken the time to visit the memory alpha star-trek wiki and look up Quark? What? Scum much? Liam said character claims are useless...but wait, I thought you agreed with me that Liam's statement of character claims being useless was hogwash? So if that were the case, why would you agree with him? What sense does that make? I was perfectly justified in attacking you there.

Post 411: I am building myself into a hole apparently. Oh, well. I can expect town to agree with him in the next, oh, I dunno, 20 posts(sarcastic, not necessarily my real thought process)? “I think he realized the Liam vote was a little silly for a townie to do and backed off it.” WTF? I said in every post (including the one I voted for Liam IN) that I voted ONLY because he voted Sekinj without posting real reasons. (BTW, why the hell did you FoS me for being suspicious of you? If I vote someone without giving reasons, would you not attack me? Should I have done that instead of having (and giving) a reason? Don’t worry, I’ll wait.) \

Its called scumhunting. Overreact much? I was baiting you into a response. I do that alot. I wont point where I have done that in the game so far, but its pretty transparent. Its apart of my playstyle. Learn to live with it.

Post 421: Defends lynch all liars . . . Sorry, but this is fail to me. You keep making reference to this experience you have, etc,etc... yeah, I don’t give damn if you have experience. I will disagree, and it is going to take a lot more than a few scenarios where it *worked* to change my mind.

Ok do me a favor. Go to the Mafia Discussion subforum and ask the veterans what they think about Lynch All Liars. See what they say about it. If I cannot persuade you as to why its a good philosophy, maybe they can. Also, http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... _All_Liars

Won’t provide examples of scummy statements. Well, yeah, I guess it is easier to beat someone who can’t defend themselves... Goes on about being a liar. (As a partial point, I suppose my response could be taken as a worthless reminder of House or that town lies too. Both good.) Insults my intelligence of the word flounder

Making an attack post is time consuming (like this post, I've been at it for an hour. Thanks alot!). Most people will agree with me without having to go back through the thread when I say that you have said some pretty scummy things so far. Some quick examples being the liam vote, the lie issue, the distancing from lurkers. If I insulted your intelligence, I am sincerely apologetic. I honestly thought you didnt know what flounder meant. And its not that you're clumsy or sloppy perse, just your attack posts are. Nothing personal.

For post 411, post 421, post 428, post 435, post 296 and post 359 are all designed to attack me, but he either lacks a (real) reason to attack me or refuses to give them for whatever ploy he has. But, he votes me because:

296: I “disassociate myself from lurkers when I only have 11 posts”
359: For “trying” to make his lack of content seem suspicious.
411: I am digging myself into a hole because Liam vote was silly and when I realized this, I backed off.
428: Maintains that I have made scummy statements, but won’t/can’t provide examples. Claims FoS are not worthless, and claims his 2 years of mafia experience makes him great... or something...
421, 435: Defends lynch all liars. Uses this to vote me, claims Sekinj lynch is going no where, thus I am next best thing, and that my pbpas are tired and forced.

296: Utterly valid
359: Yes, tried. But failed.
411: I was scumhunting. You were the target. Hi.
428: This whole pbpa is scummy, example enough. They aren't. It makes me ok.
421: Because lynch all liars is SMART. Woah what a concept!

YOU on the other hand are fairly paranoid, you active lurk, you assume that just because you have been good at scum hunting before that people should trust you. Well, I find these qualities to be scummy. Additionally, every time you vote someone, you will proceed to give reasonable doubt on there scumminess. (With Liam, you just think he is anti-town for attacking you *that is my read on the post, with Jeb you vote him but give yourself an out, with Sek, you indicate it probably won’t work and that I am next. So, either you will actually follow through with me, or give yourself an out. Heaven forbid you commit to your actions.)

Where I come from being paranoid in a mafia game is a good thing. Active lurk? What? My posts have some serious substance lad, and just because a post of mine doesn't have three paragraphs doesn't mean I'm not watching the conversation. I haven't stopped scum hunting. And yes, people -should- trust me because I say so, deal with it. About the preparatory comments, gee wiz, you got me there. I want to stay in the game and and I'll do what I can. Preparatory comments dont really even mean anything because people will recognize them and will use your actions as an indicator of what happened, not the 'saving grace' comment. Null point, as you so aptly love to point out. Anyway, on to my conclusion.

Conclusion:

What we have here is a case of either A: Light is just a novice townie and cannot handle the pressure of a scumhunt/town prod and overracts hugely on a misguided attack post on me. Or B: Is scum, is threatened by me, by Zoneace, and feels the need to retaliate with some major rhetoric, trying to parlay himself out of any suspicion. For now I will go with A. I was baiting and baiting him into something like this because I've been suspcious of him for awhile, ever since the lurker comment. I'm appeased. There are some other points I wanted to address but I'm forgetting them. This took thoroughly too long though and I will not address anymore point by points for at least a few days, I'm sick and tired of pettifoggery and I want this day to end. Sekinj is at L-1 and should claim soon or face retrobution. Ooba and Scotty7, hello welcome to our game. Please read up and post soon.

[sekinj]

well, looks like I will either die tonight or today...

I'm basically the doctor. I was going to protect Liam tonight.

but my character is Damar. I will show scum if scanned, but I'm really town.

there you go... lynch me all you want.

[Timeater]

.....whattttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt

[Timeater]

You're basically the doctor? What do you mean?

A: You're a dominion character but you're town?
B: How does your doctor power work?
C: Elaborate on some of your flavor.
D: Why will you show up scum?

[Timeater]

E: Scanned?

[sekinj]

I don’t like that the dominion has been leeching away Cardassian independence, so I’ve decided to work for the federation in secret. So I can use my military training to protect one character each night. But, no one knows I am working for the federation so if I were investigated, it would look like I was still with the dominion.

[Timeater]

It is the height of the Dominion War. The Dominion, led by the mysterious Founders, has invaded the Alpha Quadrant and taken on the combined forces of the Federation, Klingons and Romulans. As the gateway to the quadrants, DS9 has become the single most important strategic location in the galaxy. And so it is fitting that the final battle will take place aboard this station.

I have a problem with this claim because Damar wasn't a "good guy" until the very end of season 7 when he saved worf and ezri and there was the whole carsassian rebellion deal. I guess he turned out ok, but its a leap. Its also very convient to claim this. I mean, you could be the Damar before that critical point in his development, where he was a dominion lackey (albeit one who was fed up) or the Damar who was the right-hand man of Dukat, who was pretty much a one-dimensional evil guy.

Has Sekinj claimed she knew anything about DS9? Because this role is very well crafted if its a scum claim. Also, she isn't trying very hard to defend herself, more like she's already given up and resigned herself to her fate. This is bad town play or a poor scum maneuver because it never works. The power role also fits because he saved Worf and Ezri in the same manner.

Oohhh I just realized something. We're all on DS9. The Damar that saved Worf and Ezri, the good Damar who saved the day, wasn't on DS9. That part of his character didn't develop on the station. It was only until dealing with Weyoun day in and day out did he change. Damar also murdered someone on the show, Dukat's daughter (or doing his duty you could say), and a few other people. He's a pretty rough dude. Also, scum usually claim doc. Thats scum 101. ALSO, the term scanned - that sounds like something scum would know. Like they are wearing prothesis or something and they will only be caught if they are scanned.

Okay, I'm not buying that claim.

[sekinj]

great. then lynch me. it's not like i can do much good now anyway. I'll either get lynched today of nk'd tongiht.

[Light-kun]

As far as forum and mafiascum theory goes, I will admit to being an absolute and complete novice. I recently asked the person who led me to forum mafia (from IRC) (s/he will remain nameless), and while s/he agrees with me about LAL, apparently things I would see as scummy don't apply into forum games. (Though, the individual refused to give me an example fearing that would hinge on cheating....)

Your response indicates to me you are town. (

Unvote

)

Sorry for giant post.

*Roar! I'm not even a cat! I be a wulfy!*

Moving on.

First: Tim, I understand you are questioning Sekinj because you don't believe his post based on canon versus flavor, but how much can we depend on flavor being true to the series?

Second: Sekinj, is there any suggestion that your role is fallible? Like, you are unable to protect, or that there is a chance at failure, or is it a guaranteed save?

[sekinj]

nope, not fallible as far as I know. I don't know if I can protect someone on the same night I am nk'd though, so I probably don't be able to do anything this game.

[Timeater]

great. then lynch me. it's not like i can do much good now anyway. I'll either get lynched today of nk'd tongiht.

You realize how bad that play is? How uphelpful that is? If you're town you need to learn how to properly defend yourself and come out with a claim in good graces. If I had another vote I would hammer you myself.

First: Tim, I understand you are questioning Sekinj because you don't believe his post based on canon versus flavor, but how much can we depend on flavor being true to the series?

There is only one way to find out! Lol! Delibird so far has seemed to demonstrate a level of ds9 knowledge akin to my own, and I just recently watched the entire series and its fresh in my mind. His flavor post with Zone/Klingon stuff & the death scene seems to indicate to me that he knows the show like the back of his hand. Same with post counts, which each include a quote from the show. I think. So anyway, yeah - I trust him as a mod.

Second: Sekinj, is there any suggestion that your role is fallible? Like, you are unable to protect, or that there is a chance at failure, or is it a guaranteed save?

What an odd thing to ask...

[sekinj]

you know what, time, I am sick of you right now. how dare you call my play so terrible when you are the one who is going after me. If you are scum okay then woopie for you, you got me. But if you are town, you should be ashamed of yourself for being roped in by the scum so easily. I have made cases on people and they are ignore because they apparently follow everyone else around.

I'm just really sick of being seen as scum in every single one of my games.

[Timeater]

I'm just really sick of being seen as scum in every single one of my games.

Maybe you need to work on that instead of blaming other people?

You're sitting here saying you're sick of me but you're not bothering to address any of my concerns. Can you realize how that is a little disconcerting? How that might be construed as scummy? You cant expect everyone to take you at face value all the time and get angry at them when they dont believe you. Its apart of the game. And if you are town, and you just haven't tried, well then maybe you can learn from this. I'm town and I'm not ashamed at all for prosecuting you, and I doubt I will regret it. I find a Damar doctor hard to believe and even if you were town, you should have realized what that claim would lead to and would have sought to avoid it better. I have every right to call your play terrible if in fact you are town.

[sekinj]

unvote, vote: sekinj

[Timeater]

wow ugh

[M4yhem]

Is that a lynch?

Even if it isn't, I have to say I don't buy the claim at all. Doc is

the

classic claim for scum hanging at the end of a rope because usually noone dares lynch a claimed doc and a real doc won't counterclaim. Also, I've never heard of Damar; from what Timeater says, he wasn't on the station which is totally dodgy and if I had to guess who the doc was, there are other, more likely characters.

So, if Senkinj isn't dead, somebody hammer.

[ZONEACE]

you were gonna protect liam???????


AM i the ONLY that is confused as to why I wouldn't be the protection target, I'm a confirmed power role. Unless you think i'm some sort of day SK. which would need some explaining since I've confirmed myself, my role and my ability as much as was possible.

[ZONEACE]

yeah fuck this, i posted that last post before the last 5 happened.

vote sekin

if you're the doctor, you're an idiot. if you're not, you're an idiot.

[ZONEACE]

unvote vote sekjin

just in case

[Timeater]

she lynched herself thats it she's done its twilight. and why would you be the protection target zone, you've already used your power. :/

[ZONEACE]

she lynched herself thats it she's done its twilight. and why would you be the protection target zone, you've already used your power. :/

At what point in time did I EVER indicate it was a onetime use?

[Timeater]

If really do have a Damar doctor thats really really cruel Delibird -_-

[sekinj]

*psst* for the record, I did mean ZONE FACE, and not liam. Whoever the Klingon is I was going to protect, even though he hasn't done us any favors up to this point.


*dies*