Mini Normal 2196 - Game Over

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

well i know dgb crumbs PR because the last time we played together dgb crumbed vanilla cop and flipped vanilla cop?

so I want to see where dgb crumbed this game or if this is something dgb made up because dgb thinks this is a tracker guilty

[Amélie]

@Amélie

Can you briefly describe your read in each slot? (with reasons, regardless of being gut or not).

I haven't been keeping up with the game enough so don't blame me if I get all of the slots confused - I have no idea who is who at this point and just want this day to be over. I don't care that there hasn't been enough content from certain slots but this day feels like it's been months.
Off the top of my head, my current reads are something like
Gretchen - null because I scum read her but she claimed a pr that fit with another apparently
DGB - town because of the suicidal frustration when their wagon was at its peak
Solon - null because I can't remember who this is; only a name
AliceK - maybe scum. I'm not sure. She was really scummy but then got better halfway through
Llama - Town or scum that we are never going to catch this game because the entire game revolves around llama town
Flea - seems ok. I would tentatively put down town.
Pooky - seems ok as well but I want to put him in null because I have some paranoia there.
Clidd - dropped to null because of insistence that I am scum but then no reasoning to back it up.
Vfp - was very towny in the beginning but recently has been acting strange. still town.
There might be other people that I'm missing but this is what I can think of.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Milady, what paranoia could you possibly have of me? :3

[Amélie]

I don't think this day needs to go on any longer and I will now hammer any wagon that reaches E-1.

[Amélie]

Milady, what paranoia could you possibly have of me? :3

Maybe your short posts are putting me off. Not sure.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Bonjour Amélie, enchanté.

[Amélie]

Bonjour Amélie, enchanté.

It is nice to meet you as well.

[LlamaFluff]

@A50 - Do you agree with your predecessor that Lotus is probably scum?
@Pooky - So your read on DGB hinges primarily on if they crumbed?
@Lotus - Which of the PR claims is most likely scum to you?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

@Pooky - So your read on DGB hinges primarily on if they crumbed?

yup

[LlamaFluff]

what the heck is a night 1 psychologist anyway

Just because im not sure its actually been fully explained either...

DGB claimed a weaker version of a cop. Role essentially gives a result of "Can NK a player" or "Cant/Already has NKed a player", depending on role resolution they would get a guilty on any scum/vig that did not submit a kill. Innocent on town or any scum/vig that did kill.
Gretchen claimed a similar weaker version in novice detective. Role gives results of "Has killed a player" or "Hasnt killed a player", modifier means they cant target N1. It also would give a false positive to the dead GS.

Thats why I have those two tied together so hard. They complement each other perfectly.

Now yes what DGB claimed would be the obvious choice as a fakeclaim if Gretchen is town (and if scum is any good in that case would have been brought up in the PT) but it fits together very well. Feels like old school town getting Odd Night Tracker and Even Night Watcher or something along those lines. Again the Solon/Dann slots are *far* better PR-scum picks to me.

[VFP]

I'd still lim Flea over DGB here. The push feels out of place and more opportunist. Best then that's most likely because I think DGB is town here more than not.
The sad part is its back to arguing what alignment the reaction was from DGB to something that shod be treated As NAI.
Not a fan on how Clidd posted as a whole Flea there either.

Amelie just has convenient reads again that seem to have changed to what they were without the explanation adding up.
Having lack of interest is one thing, but page 1 it shows everyone who replaced.
Adding Solon and Pooky, adding Alice and Flea.
Missing Dann/A50, geraintm and Lotus.

Just looks to be internally missed. Plus the fact that Clidd went down to Null with the reason that I was looking bad. This also means that amelie has everyone as null or scum other than me or DGB.

[VFP]

I had to rush the end there or I'll be late for work but think about it.
Has amelie really just been disinterested all of day 2 or just am easy excuse?

[Flea The Magician]

AliceK - maybe scum. I'm not sure. She was really scummy but then got better halfway through

We have differing opinions, as I caught up I started SRing more, what in particular strikes you are "got better"?

I don't think this day needs to go on any longer and I will now hammer any wagon that reaches E-1.

We got 3 replace ins who need to settle into the game, this feels anti-town to me.

I'd still lim Flea over DGB here. The push feels out of place and more opportunist.

Honestly, if you'd said anything else, I wouldve been gaining suspicions on you. I fully understand that this can look opportunistic, however, that level of AtE cannot be allowed to live against a >90% potential mech guilty. Tracking came exclusively from DGB. DGBs activity pattern can be stormmapped its reacted that badly and inverse to pressure.

[VFP]

The tracking hint was taken back by Dann.
I would say look at the interactions with DGB to or about Biped day 1.

Does the visit make more sense as killing or checking?
From DGB as a player, not as a scum decision.

It's plausible scum team just felt it was the best kill and decided it. DGB would favour as a goon then anyway.

The question from Llama about results and DGB getting it right seems very "exact happenings" to me and I find it too convenient to drop into place with such ease given claiming the role, it pairing with Grethen and knowing the result correct.
DGB is an experienced player though, I'm not suggesting anything of the less here with that.

[Flea The Magician]

the thing is... I didn't track DGB

so it's weird it assumes I did

First mention or implication of a tracker, at all.

[Flea The Magician]

You are literally going to have to point out where Dann has even remotely hinted at a track specifically, because I'm not seeing it at all in the ISO.

[geraintm]

aw man, i come back after a night and find all these posts...

a massive wall from Flea, a bunch of interactions between people talking about how the claimed roles work which go above my paygrade.
Almost nothing about me. I feel lost in this game, just sitting in my own boat lazily drifting along the river as everyone else is in a raft franticly paddling through white water.
i admit i am stuck on clidd. i am sorry, but it feels like a lot of the workings out at the moment are based on people's claims, timings and stuff like that and it isn't something i am comfortable using to place votes.

[Flea The Magician]

There was something I aimed at you, lemme go find it. Its in the wall o doom somewhere.

[Flea The Magician]

Gerain you have massively different energy here to my last rep in. You were more passive then and you seem more engaged here... I'm TRing you at 7/10 but I'm sus af about it.

Never mind, literally aimed but not requiring response.

[geraintm]

Gerain you have massively different energy here to my last rep in. You were more passive then and you seem more engaged here... I'm TRing you at 7/10 but I'm sus af about it.

Never mind, literally aimed but not requiring response.

yeah, that was what i thought. i don't feel more engaged than other games. i've done like 2 or 3 big effort posts today, but i'm surprised you consider me invovled.

[VFP]

You are literally going to have to point out where Dann has even remotely hinted at a track specifically, because I'm not seeing it at all in the ISO.

From my perspective it was implied with DGB's response and the 90% comment from Dann.
I originally actually thought Watcher over Tracker until tracker makes more sense there from ISO.
If someone is claiming a 90% on a player who did visit the target, what investigation roles are going to standardly be here?
Notice how DGB doesn't see it as a guilty / not guilty kind if role with Dann? That suggests a mind set of DGB believing Dann does not know its role or alignment. And shows no worry to if Dann did.

[Flea The Magician]

You are literally going to have to point out where Dann has even remotely hinted at a track specifically, because I'm not seeing it at all in the ISO.

From my perspective it was implied with DGB's response and the 90% comment from Dann.
I originally actually thought Watcher over Tracker until tracker makes more sense there from ISO.
If someone is claiming a 90% on a player who did visit the target, what investigation roles are going to standardly be here?
Notice how DGB doesn't see it as a guilty / not guilty kind if role with Dann? That suggests a mind set of DGB believing Dann does not know its role or alignment. And shows no worry to if Dann did.

>90% guilty can come from a lot of places, Millers, cop sanities and variants, asectics and redirects can make up that 10% of doubt, loyal/disloyal and all sorts of other modifiers can affect that.

DGB was the one who said tracked. Dann near immediately said it wasnt a track. People have latched on to this tracking massively and I do not like it. Dann/Pooks hasnt claimed fully and I know Pooky will have no intention to.

DGBs reaction screams of "oh nuts I got caught" and the AtE after that reinforces that. AtE is tricky thing to navigate. Pooks can tell you that. (Sorry to keep draggin you back to that pooks, I still hate that I did it, but its a damn good point of reference)

With AtE you need to actually read into it, you need to see the motivations, you need to see the why and how its being used, and as it goes on, you need to see the nuances in it. Emotion isnt a solid block of *thing* - and yes this is coming from someone with a major emotional personality disorder where emotions tend to be literally all or nothing.

DGBs AtE lacks the nuance, I'd expect it to show sustained yet variable emotional intensity. Reacting more to things or disconnecting completely. Instead we have a DGB who can be pressure mapped.

As pressure went up, DGB was present and actively behaving in an anti-town manner. As soon as the pressure started dying off, dafuq did it go? Appears once or twice to drop a wagoning vote and then self-yeets again the moment the pressure is back up.

What people are looking at is 90% with a conditional,

there is no conditional

. Dann has only said >90% guilty, and has accommodated for potential misleads in there.

[Flea The Magician]

Spoiler: Relevant posts of dans

ISO Link for the lazy to see where I'm looking.

VOTE: DGB

VOTE: dgb
VOTE: dgb
VOTE: dgb
VOTE: dgb

geraintm I understand you think my vote looks bad

but what do you think that says about my alignment, would you still say it's bad if hypo had flipped red

i am going to need more than this from you

why is it town?

Idk what they are, but I'm asking what gives you confidence the DGB is scum?

I’ll explain eventually but I want more people in this game to put down votes first

nah jk kill dgb VOTE: DGB

I shouldn't have to reveal why I'm voting it at this point

@Dann I don't really care for you going into detail on roles or claims other than is this 100% accurate scum caught or no?

I'd say very rarely is anything 100%, even cop guilties run into the possibility of millers.

However, I'd say this is greater than 90% and DGB's reaction does not decrease that at all.

btw don't think DGB's role can exist with mine, gretchen's, and whatever Solon has and have it be balanced

the thing is... I didn't track DGB

so it's weird it assumes I did

Dannflor I really want to know why you had so much confidence in DGB being scum if you aren't tracker, that is very fishy to me.

lol you're not gonna get me to claim

I came out of the day pushing DGB largely as a reaction test. The reaction I got seemed awful initially, but I've been reconsidering. When mafia NKs me you'll be able to see the info I got and conclude for yourselves whether DGB is scum.

Frankly, I thought it was suspicious that DGB was giving an explanation for why it visited the NK preemptively. But now I don't really think DGB!scum does that without knowing for sure it was tracked to the night kill

There is NO CLAIM AT ALL ABOUT THE NATURE OF THE GUILTY.

[Flea The Magician]

Spoiler: Meanwhile in the Land of Goofball

The scum must really like the gamestate if they slayed Biped. I view that slot more like vig bait.

geraintm is town.

VOTE: dgb
VOTE: dgb
VOTE: dgb
VOTE: dgb

Buzz off I'm town.

VOTE: Dannflor

VOTE: Alice

VOTE: clidd

[[YOU CAN SEE THE TONAL SHIFT IMMEDIATELY HERE]]

Add this to a long list of games where I fucked up a PR.

I'm

Night 1

Psychologist

and I investigated the NK'd player.

Dannflor is scum PR, put two and two together, bye, see you all in the dead thread.

VOTE: DGB

[[Dann hasn't even confirmed a guilty yet but as you can see in my first spoiler, its not a hard miss]]

There is scum in Dann and DGB, without a doubt in my mind. So much information has been filled in for Dann its amazing and should DGB flip green, well Pooks is going to be on fire tomorrow.

[VFP]

>90% guilty can come from a lot of places, Millers, cop sanities and variants, asectics and redirects can make up that 10% of doubt, loyal/disloyal and all sorts of other modifiers can affect that.

This is a normal keep that in mind.
Also I joined the game after Solon and Dann posted.
And a Gunsmith was confirmed

Solon getting a green on Lotus explains itself.
What roles are left for Dann to get 90% sure on?
Rolecop? With the claim no
Watcher? Plausible
Tracker? Understandable
PT cop? No

I'm not going to say what DGB was thinking at the time as I have no idea obviously.
If it was me though and town anything outside of a Town / watcher wouldn't be on my mind.

I'll do the rest of your post later after work / lunch