Mini 660 - Star Trek: DS9 Mafia (Ruined = Over)

[ooba]

Just finished reading the game - will post my thoughts in sometime (read as : in a few hours) ..

[td]

Why would sharing your suspects be a bad thing? Taken a vow of secrecy, or something?

It's not so much the listing of whom you suspect, but the fact that listing the suspects also gives away whom you

don't

suspect. Listing anything more than the top two suspects on day one is not helpful.

--

His consecutive posts said, don't pay attention to claims, then made one. It seems kind of bizarre and somewhat scummy to not accept claims as evidence but expect yours to do much good.

I'd like to see an example of where he actually expected his claim “to do much good.”

--

[repeatedly:] you wouldn't, would you?

It seems like you're lacking real arguments there…

--

Unvote, Vote Liam

I don't like it, the case against CallMeLiam is crap (as is the case against frelaras).

--

Right now, I'm torn between sekinj and Light-kun, I'll need to think about this some more (that shouldn't take longer than 24 hours).

[sekinj]

t;][repeatedly:] you wouldn't, would you?

It seems like you're lacking real arguments there…

fre pushed me to answer each little comment he made. I answered a few of them like that because that is how HE responded to MY arguements, and then expected me to comment on that...

[frelaras]

I'd like to see an example of where he actually expected his claim “to do much good.”

What's the point of saying it in the first place, if you don't expect people to act on it? In fact, in spite of the earlier behavior that led to Liam getting voted on in the first place, we've all dropped it now based on the fact (and I can dig up the 2-3 posts that say this if you don't believe it) that his Quark claim is good. And I hardly see Liam in here arguing against it. Natural enough, but it seems like he's benefiting from a character claim when he claims they're useless. Do you see why I find this position unhelpful? At some point in the future, he's going to be around to go after someone irregardless of their claim largely because his character claim saved him early on. It's a double standard and I don't like it.

Is it a scummy double standard? It could be. If the day comes when Liam presses for the lynch of an obvious Starfleet cast member, it will be really convenient that he can claim that claims are worthless. But I don't expect anything less of a Ferengi.

I've been thinking about sekinj's case on me. It seems like she's been pretty erratic. First she had a case on Timeater, then she moved to Jebus "because it was the only play anyone was willing to make." Then she jumped to Zoneace, then to Liam. And now I'm her latest suspect, largely for answering a replacement's question. It seems like her votes have been those of convenience, following the town around. I wanted to avoid the obvious omgus vote, but after considering her voting pattern, I'm getting convinced she's scum.

vote: sekinj

Two other things after reading through the thread... Ozymandius, look on this thread and despair, man! This is a small game and you say it's going "over your head." That's either a really convenient way to stay under the radar because you're scum or you need to play more newbie games. But you've been here long enough. IDK.... You're not helping the town as is.

And that goes for Zoneace too. If you are a "confirmed townie" as someone else stated, you need to use that position to be pre-town and hunt scum, not drop out of sight until you get to kill someone again.

[farside22]

I really don't care for the light/ forbidden interaction against Liam. I don't believe lights vote on Liam is for the right reason's either.
I agree that if someone is that providing context and is just posting without really saying anything it comes off as scummy.
Since I see frelaras voting sek and I don't trust him but I see a contection somewhere here I will

unvote:
vote: light

[Timeater]

So, I watched the end of ds9. I Bawww'd. Especially during the flashback montage.

Why Odo why ;_;

[Light-kun]

I really don't care for the light/ forbidden interaction against Liam. I don't believe lights vote on Liam is for the right reason's either.
I agree that if someone is that providing context and is just posting without really saying anything it comes off as scummy.
Since I see frelaras voting sek and I don't trust him but I see a contection somewhere here I will

unvote:
vote: light

Farside, usually your posts make a bit of sense. What is a "Light/forbidden intereraction against Liam?" If you are trying to say my interaction against Liam...? No.. wait.. *is confused...* As for the right reasons for voting Liam, see rest of post.

Why are you voting for someone who claimed Quark and doesn't have a counter-claimer?

Well, I believe that Liam is the one who suggested that character claims are meaningless. You know, someone else actually explained that it would only help scum. So, what better ploy could scum come up with? They lay out a claim, acting as a foolish town, and then they are in the clear for a few days. Now, I am sure he will deliver some form of real reasoning when he responds, but until then, my vote stands.

Unvote, Vote Liam

I don't like it, the case against CallMeLiam is crap (as is the case against frelaras).

--

Right now, I'm torn between sekinj and Light-kun, I'll need to think about this some more (that shouldn't take longer than 24 hours).

The "case"* may be crap, but I thought the post is suspicious. I acted on it and gave some opinions. And unfortunately, a majority of today’s talk has been around DS9 and arguments related there to. So, I find it to be very difficult to find anything else scummy.

On a side note:
If I assume that my gut feeling is right (and I think it is), then frelaras is more weird then scummy. Additionally, most of my suspicion on M4y (which is obviously very low, or he would have been the target of my vote) is pretty much non existent.

therefore: Who do I find scummy?

Well, no one else interested me (or the town, since the opinions of others matter) is sekinj, Liam, and jeb (deceased).

Without Jeb, that leaves sekinj and Liam. And since Liam's last post left a bad taste in my mouth, I will pursue him until he responds. (And once he elaborates, as I requested, I am certain that I can move on to Sekinj and try and dig something up from this wasteland of DS9 arguments.)

PS: Seriously, Farside, I am a little confused on what your post was saying other than you voted me because I voted Liam. Please clarify because I don't know who forbidden is (because it looks like you are talking about a person named forbidden...)

[CallMeLiam]

Sekinj:

Post 130: Tries to get a lynch on jebus going because of his attacks. While I agree they have no place in a game, they're also not a reason to lynch a player but rather get them replaced or behaving better.
Post 167: Rather than try and push for someone he finds scummy, she's happy to vote jebus because that's the only lynch she thinks we'll be getting.
Then she pulls a 180 on Jebus based on the claim. This is the pro-towniest thing she's done thus far but it's an entirely safe unvoting from a scum stance as even the power-role claim seems to have done little to halt the bandwagon.
Post 221: Throws doubt on the Klingon claim...
Post 234: Let's lynch all the non-DS9ers is the scummiest single sentence I've seen in the game so far.
Post 293: Hops onto what looks like an easy wagon on me, but doesn't place his vote until he sees it gathering steam in 301
Post 317: Calls me a lurker without bothering to check my V\LA status.
Post 374: The case against frelaras is weak, and the vote undeserved.

Then the argument with M4yhem regarding which I find myself agreeing with M4y on pretty much everything.

[td]

fre pushed me to answer each little comment he made. I answered a few of them like that because that is how HE responded to MY arguements, and then expected me to comment on that...

If by “fre” you mean M4yhem, then at least the explanation isn't completely wrong.

M4yhem stated that

exactly

once (in response to your “there are much better cases out there”). Also, you did not give any information on which cases you actually mean nor provide reason why the case on you were bad (which seems to imply that it's bad because it's a on you), so that basically disqualifies it as an argument.

Also, a consistent pattern in your posts is that you make a general statement like “${something} looks like ${scummy action}” and then fail to provide reasoning and/or examples, which to me looks like talking without actually saying anything.

vote: sekinj.

--

What's the point of saying it in the first place, if you don't expect people to act on it? In fact, in spite of the earlier behavior that led to Liam getting voted on in the first place, we've all dropped it now based on the fact (and I can dig up the 2-3 posts that say this if you don't believe it) that his Quark claim is good. And I hardly see Liam in here arguing against it. Natural enough, but it seems like he's benefiting from a character claim when he claims they're useless. Do you see why I find this position unhelpful? At some point in the future, he's going to be around to go after someone irregardless of their claim largely because his character claim saved him early on. It's a double standard and I don't like it.

You shouldn't in any way cease suspecting me because you think my claim is a solid one.

If you do, it's your fault, not CallMeLiam's.

--

Is it a scummy double standard? It could be. If the day comes when Liam presses for the lynch of an obvious Starfleet cast member, it will be really convenient that he can claim that claims are worthless. But I don't expect anything less of a Ferengi.

There are “obvious Starfleet cast members” on the show which could feasibly be scum (and not just because of changeling impersonation).
Also, I don't like how you paint CallMeLiam as scummy for something he

might or might not do

in the future.

--

Without Jeb, that leaves sekinj and Liam. And since Liam's last post left a bad taste in my mouth, I will pursue him until he responds. (And once he elaborates, as I requested, I am certain that I can move on to Sekinj and try and dig something up from this wasteland of DS9 arguments.)

Seeing that CallMeLiam has already answered, I'll wait for your answer before I pursue this further.

[farside22]

PS: Seriously, Farside, I am a little confused on what your post was saying other than you voted me because I voted Liam. Please clarify because I don't know who forbidden is (because it looks like you are talking about a person named forbidden...)

Replace Forbidden with Sek. God I can't believe I got the two of them confused.

[Light-kun]

PS: Seriously, Farside, I am a little confused on what your post was saying other than you voted me because I voted Liam. Please clarify because I don't know who forbidden is (because it looks like you are talking about a person named forbidden...)

Replace Forbidden with Sek. God I can't believe I got the two of them confused.

Okay, that makes slightly more sense. However, I was more or less thinking idly on Sekinj's suggestion of a M4y+fre scum team. But, I also posted thoughts that fre seemed weird, not scummy, and that most of M4y's (combined with his predecessors) is null (more or less). Since I cannot find a connection here that makes them seem scummy, I am temporarily placing them in the slightly town pile. (Especially after M4y responded to Sekinj, which made me feel that of recent actions, Liam deserved my vote. Questions on that, see previous post.)

Sekinj:

Post 130: Tries to get a lynch on jebus going because of his attacks. While I agree they have no place in a game, they're also not a reason to lynch a player but rather get them replaced or behaving better.

This is true… I think either zone or time had better reasons to vote Jeb. But, I can agree. (Although the response was quotable!)

Post 167: Rather than try and push for someone he finds scummy, she's happy to vote jebus because that's the only lynch she thinks we'll be getting.
Then she pulls a 180 on Jebus based on the claim. This is the pro-towniest thing she's done thus far but it's an entirely safe unvoting from a scum stance as even the power-role claim seems to have done little to halt the bandwagon.

True, this point is more or less null.

Post 221: Throws doubt on the Klingon claim...

In this game, character claims don’t mean much to me, but casting doubt… needs to look this up to be sure* could be either way… depends on situation.

Post 234: Let's lynch all the non-DS9ers is the scummiest single sentence I've seen in the game so far.

Absolutely.

Post 293: Hops onto what looks like an easy wagon on me, but doesn't place his vote until he sees it gathering steam in 301

At that point, I don’t think I was really understanding what made you appear scummy at that point. My vote on you was strictly for that one post (#390).

Post 317: Calls me a lurker without bothering to check my V\LA status.

Gr… could be null. I didn’t accuse you of it, but since I didn’t check... (Granted, it may be opportunistic but…)

Post 374: The case against frelaras is weak, and the vote undeserved.

Then the argument with M4yhem regarding which I find myself agreeing with M4y on pretty much everything.

True. There isn’t much substance outside of the small connections between between M4y and fres, and when I assume one of them is town the case has virtually nothing. Again, fres= weird, not scummy. (Thus far…)

Now, on to Sekinj…
I would have to check out a few of these posts in context (but I am on crappy school computers, so I will do this later). Anyway, good post and thanks for explaining.

Unvote

[Timeater]

Light-Kun is just building a bigger and bigger hole for himself imo. After Sekinj has been properly forced to claim/judged/lynched, he deserves serious attention. I think Light has accrued more FoS's than anyone else in the game at this point. That has to count for something and we have to take those fingers in some direction. I think he realized the Liam vote was a little silly for a townie to do and backed off it.

[M4yhem]

Yet you are trying to mind-read me, even after I told you my intentions you just blatantly ignored that. I'm not saying you should trust my version because I say so, I'm saying that if you can't mind read Man, whose role you took over, what makes you think you knew all about what was happening with my comments?

I don’t have a response, but if I did, it might be similar to Sekinj here...

Okay.

I can do it with you because I have to, there’s no other way to win the game. Besides which, I have your behaviour to go on.
I guess if I absolutely have to I can guess at what motivated Man, but I think it would be more useful for people to ask me questions and get a feel for my stance on the game rather than ask me to explain the thoughts of someone I have no connection with. That’s really what I meant with my comment to Farside; that any explanation would be a guess at best and it would be more helpful to quiz me about the here and now.

Even if meta does not apply to you, it may apply to your predecessors. *Shrugs* I don’t put faith in meta, but your reaction seemed like a flinch

A flinch? The comment that started all this was a question about whether replacements were

less

likely to be scum. I wouldn’t flinch from that, as scum, I’d be applauding.

Actually, I didn’t have much opinion on who is scum, with the possible exception of Liam, but he was losing suspicion from me fairly quickly.

So wait...you don’t actually have any suspects at all, even though you said you did, but didn’t want to reveal them?

Posting everyday when you cannot add nothing is not necessary. Far from it.

I didn’t add nothing, I asked a question (which noone bothered with except my suspect, but whatever.)

(Your loss of suspicion form me is due, in large part, due to your reactions when accused, but these will be useful later in the game.)

Fine, but I still dislike the interaction between you and Sekinj. Especially since you are going after Liam, who is voting for Sek. The fos remains.

Ooba- I don’t have a firstborn (yet) want a cookie? We’re waiting for those thoughts...

[It's not so much the listing of whom you suspect, but the fact that listing the suspects also gives away whom you

don't

suspect. Listing anything more than the top two suspects on day one is not helpful.

Nobody asked Light-kun for a comprehensive rundown of all the players but if he says he has suspects but won’t talk about them, that raises eyebrows.

So, I watched the end of ds9. I Bawww'd. Especially during the flashback montage.

Why Odo why ;_;

DON’T POST SPOILERS!

*starts wondering what happened to Odo*

I agree with your latest post though.

[Light-kun]

Light-Kun is just building a bigger and bigger hole for himself imo. After Sekinj has been properly forced to claim/judged/lynched, he deserves serious attention. I think Light has accrued more FoS's than anyone else in the game at this point. That has to count for something and we have to take those fingers in some direction. I think he realized the Liam vote was a little silly for a townie to do and backed off it.

First: Most (if not all) of those FoS are from you. Maybe you are reading a different game.

Second: What part of "look into him later" are you not getting. School computers=crap. I can not post because I am not using crap. And I will, asap.

Three: I think I explained I voted Liam because of that singular post and waited for him to respond.

Fourth:

I have 3 meaningless FoS, that is correct. (Maybe four, but I only recall three.)

Now then, I am going to address.

Even if meta does not apply to you, it may apply to your predecessors. *Shrugs* I don’t put faith in meta, but your reaction seemed like a flinch

A flinch? The comment that started all this was a question about whether replacements were

less

likely to be scum. I wouldn’t flinch from that, as scum, I’d be applauding.

True, and you are right about how it started. I misread and utterly ****ed up on comprehension. I thought they were speculating on whether either of your predecessors were more likely to skip out on a town role or scum role. Sorry for my confusion.

Actually, I didn’t have much opinion on who is scum, with the possible exception of Liam, but he was losing suspicion from me fairly quickly.

So wait...you don’t actually have any suspects at all, even though you said you did, but didn’t want to reveal them?

Yes, I lied. Between the game speculation, and the death of someone I thought was scum, I don't have a major suspect. However, Liam's post made me want to look into Sekinj. I may suspect him after a reread of his posts.

Posting everyday when you cannot add nothing is not necessary. Far from it.

I didn’t add nothing, I asked a question (which noone bothered with except my suspect, but whatever.)

(Your loss of suspicion form me is due, in large part, due to your reactions when accused, but these will be useful later in the game.)

Fine, but I still dislike the interaction between you and Sekinj. Especially since you are going after Liam, who is voting for Sek. The fos remains.

I am not pursuing Liam, reread my last post. (and several posts before then.) I voted Liam because he voted with little/crappy *demonstrated* logic. And unlike timeeater (who got pissed off and fos me because I voted him for the same reason.)

[It's not so much the listing of whom you suspect, but the fact that listing the suspects also gives away whom you

don't

suspect. Listing anything more than the top two suspects on day one is not helpful.

Nobody asked Light-kun for a comprehensive rundown of all the players but if he says he has suspects but won’t talk about them, that raises eyebrows. [/quotes]

Maybe, maybe. This is a valid point. Maybe that didn't need to be lied about. *Shrugs* Oh well. I am hoping to gain some suspects in a reread, which (if not done sooner) will be done Friday since I am off.

[M4yhem]

True, and you are right about how it started. I misread and utterly ****ed up on comprehension. I thought they were speculating on whether either of your predecessors were more likely to skip out on a town role or scum role. Sorry for my confusion.

Fair enough. I guess I can believe that.

Yes, I lied. Between the game speculation, and the death of someone I thought was scum, I don't have a major suspect.

It really isn’t protown to lie.

However, Liam's post made me want to look into Sekinj. I may suspect him after a reread of his posts.

That seems a little convenient for my tastes; one minute you suspect Liam, the next you’re thinking of voting his suspect.

I am not pursuing Liam, reread my last post. (and several posts before then.) I voted Liam because he voted with little/crappy *demonstrated* logic.

Yeah alright, you unvoted, that doesn’t mean you never voted him in the first place.

Maybe that didn't need to be lied about.

It really, really didn’t.

Where’d everyone go?

[Light-kun]

Yes, I lied. Between the game speculation, and the death of someone I thought was scum, I don't have a major suspect.

It really isn’t protown to lie.

However, Liam's post made me want to look into Sekinj. I may suspect him after a reread of his posts.

That seems a little convenient for my tastes; one minute you suspect Liam, the next you’re thinking of voting his suspect.

I am not pursuing Liam, reread my last post. (and several posts before then.) I voted Liam because he voted with little/crappy *demonstrated* logic.

Yeah alright, you unvoted, that doesn’t mean you never voted him in the first place.

[. . .]

Where’d everyone go?

1. Good, it is truth.

2. True, but I *had* a suspect, who was shot. And I was horribly wrong about him... Stupid Jeb just had to be town, didn't he?

3. Granted, and I have no remorse putting one vote on him. (I think he *might* have had one before I did, but it was irrelevant.)

4. I dunno. Just seems like a slow game.

[Timeater]

We're pushing the Sekinj vote, get with it people. If it doesn't go anywhere, we lynch Light-Kun (multiple FoS's, multiple scummy statements, admitted liar, flounderer). Lets just get things moving. Both are totally viable IMO and both are worthy lynchees. Requesting count, Deli. Ooba the game isn't that long and you've yet to post *bitchslap*.

[td]

Nobody asked Light-kun for a comprehensive rundown of all the players but if he says he has suspects but won’t talk about them, that raises eyebrows.

I didn't intent that statement you quoted to be Light-kun specific in any way, but rather directed to the “scum lists are a bad thing” points brought up earlier.

--

Also, ACK to Timeater.

[Timeater]

*bitchslaps td*

[CallMeLiam]

While I

strongly

dislike Lynch-all-liars as a way of catching scum, I also think it's real bad for townies to lie.
/stating the obvious

[td]

*bitchslaps td*

Why that?

[Timeater]

Because you ACK'd at me? -_-

Liam lynch all liars is pretty tried and true. 1 it teaches townies NOT TO LIE AND THAT LYING IS A BAD IDEA 2 its usually dead-on when catching scum

[td]

ACK is short for Acknowledgement.d

[td]

Grah, stupid Iceweasel/Firefox 3 showing unescaped URIs…

EBWOB: ACK is short for Acknowledgement.

[CallMeLiam]

Because you ACK'd at me? -_-

Liam lynch all liars is pretty tried and true. 1 it teaches townies NOT TO LIE AND THAT LYING IS A BAD IDEA 2 its usually dead-on when catching scum

Lynch all liars is awful. It only works on badly playing scum and they're the kind you can catch with other methods. It also has a tendancy to catch misguided townies and I'm yet to be convinced that a misguided townie is better dead than alive, because warm bodies are what we be needing.