Open 806: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[Bridgeburners]

i haven't heard from mena since overnight :/ i'll let him know tho

implo i still never really ~liked~ but i've played against scum-him like three times and i always townread scum-him so i'm wondering if i'm not townrading him atm if that means he's town? i don't know. i don't have a good read on him. ithink he had some anti-partner-y vibes with ben as his wagon formed, so if ben (ss) was scum i think it would point to town-implo but i think ss is town anyways now so this is probably moot
i like still don't twonread him per se but i also don't know if i want him flipped, as he seems like everyone's favorite cw rn

peta is by far my biggest scumread, and i'm not sure where scum is otherwise, which is why i decided to start working on some of the other slots i don't have great reads on (i.e. at this moment i'm sorting you, etc)

~ skitteR

[Datisi]

i could have sworn that you had a post where you were calling all major day one wagons town bc ~something about gamestate~ but for the life of me i cannot find it and now i'm wondering if i made it up (or if it was posted by someone else)

[Datisi]

skitt, did you ever post that? or is sleep deprivation finally getting to me?

[SirCakez]

Votecount 2.2

Implosion (3) - PenguinPower, Schiavetto, Infinity 324
Bridgeburners (2) - Petapan, Isis
Petapan (1) - Bridgeburners
Infinity 324 (1) - Datisi
PenguinPower (1) - Implosion

Not voting (3) - Something_Smart, seCret hYdra, Not_Mafia

(expired on 2021-03-04 21:52:00) remain until day end

With 11 players alive, it takes 6 to reach a majority.

[skitter30]

fair enuf!

i'm still not loving your entrance tho

despite this i was telling mena earlier that i think the stalled cws on aff + implo kinda loosely point to them being tvt - scum have no motivation to switch or force either wagon in particular through, and are fairly content to passively watch either play out

i think this explains the sluggishness of the past few irl days

this is wholly a gamestate read, i still dislike ur slot on play to be clear

~ skitteR

This?

~ skitteR

[SirCakez]

Prodding Schiavetto and seCret hYdra

[Bridgeburners]

fair enuf!

i'm still not loving your entrance tho

despite this i was telling mena earlier that i think the stalled cws on aff + implo kinda loosely point to them being tvt - scum have no motivation to switch or force either wagon in particular through, and are fairly content to passively watch either play out

i think this explains the sluggishness of the past few irl days

this is wholly a gamestate read, i still dislike ur slot on play to be clear

~ skitteR

This?

~ skitteR

Ugh

[Datisi]

ok, so the reason you weren't voting me / going after me is ... ? like this seems like such a random line to drop, esp after saying i'm town off of associates and not giving any indication to thinking otherwise?

It's because your SR of me is so removed from your posting that I forgot it even existed. You voted me for my SR on sechyd, but I'm not pushing them anymore, and you didn't even comment on that. Was my unvote a scummy backtrack? Didn't change your read, but the fact that I SRed them in the first place is scummy enough that you're continuing to vote me? It's very strange, especially since no one else agrees with you, and you're not engaging with them or giving them reasons to change their mind. So what is this vote doing?

I don't remember saying anything about you in the shirou ISO

it's sitting there until i find a better place for it. i saw that you weren't pushing them anymore, i don't think it's worth commenting on. also, "you're not engaging with them" is funny considering i went to talk to skitter about it... less than an hour ago? also fun fact: i rarely go against consensus if i'm not *strongly* convinced the consensus is wrong. like, i don't have to have a super strong scumread on you in order to vote you?

and you didn't say anything about shirou. it was about notsci. 2452.

[Datisi]

fair enuf!

i'm still not loving your entrance tho

despite this i was telling mena earlier that i think the stalled cws on aff + implo kinda loosely point to them being tvt - scum have no motivation to switch or force either wagon in particular through, and are fairly content to passively watch either play out

i think this explains the sluggishness of the past few irl days

this is wholly a gamestate read, i still dislike ur slot on play to be clear

~ skitteR

This?

~ skitteR

Ugh

well the word "gamestate" got burned into my brain so i guess that's the post

though reading it now, it seems much less certain of the "t/t read" than i remember it to be

how strong was it in the first place?

[Infinity 324]

it's sitting there until i find a better place for it. i saw that you weren't pushing them anymore, i don't think it's worth commenting on. also, "you're not engaging with them" is funny considering i went to talk to skitter about it... less than an hour ago? also fun fact: i rarely go against consensus if i'm not *strongly* convinced the consensus is wrong. like, i don't have to have a super strong scumread on you in order to vote you?

and you didn't say anything about shirou. it was about notsci. 2452.

Meh ok

Wrt the second part, I honestly forgot about that, and I have to think some more

[petapan]

ok, so the reason you weren't voting me / going after me is ... ? like this seems like such a random line to drop, esp after saying i'm town off of associates and not giving any indication to thinking otherwise?

It's because your SR of me is so removed from your posting that I forgot it even existed. You voted me for my SR on sechyd, but I'm not pushing them anymore, and you didn't even comment on that. Was my unvote a scummy backtrack? Didn't change your read, but the fact that I SRed them in the first place is scummy enough that you're continuing to vote me? It's very strange, especially since no one else agrees with you, and you're not engaging with them or giving them reasons to change their mind. So what is this vote doing?

I don't remember saying anything about you in the shirou ISO

it's sitting there until i find a better place for it. i saw that you weren't pushing them anymore, i don't think it's worth commenting on. also, "you're not engaging with them" is funny considering i went to talk to skitter about it... less than an hour ago? also fun fact: i rarely go against consensus if i'm not *strongly* convinced the consensus is wrong. like, i don't have to have a super strong scumread on you in order to vote you?

and you didn't say anything about shirou. it was about notsci. 2452.

everything in infinity's posting today is really town imo, voting him just because his secret hydra read was goofy is a bad choice

[Bridgeburners]

Yeah i wasnt really sure what u were referring yo either, that was the best i could come up with

Strong enuf (at least coupled with how today us playing out) that i'm not super vibing an implo vote rn

~ skitter

[petapan]

no i think i'm actually going to keep fighting this because i think your explanations suck

ok! i'm gonna put it in spoilers tho!

Spoiler:

okay whatever get wrapped up in the technicalities, to a significant extent his posts avoided saying anything useful and i tend to find that scummy, the idea that this is an insufficient case for day 1 is ridiculous

like, in theory, hypothetically, as scum, i would press on that anyway but that's only because i, here, as town, mistakenly read it as scummy, the idea that i somehow should not have been reading it that way is stupid because this is how i try to read people and it's not at all dissimilar to how i've tried to read people in other games

it was surface-level scummy, sure, whatever, i agree with you. it. did. not. make. him. scum. tho.
and you definitely know better than to equate Bad Posting with scumminess, so the fact that you *did* is what i find scummy

iioa != scum
bad posting != scum
fencesitting != scum

and it's ridiculous that you're sitting here arguing with me that those things were why you were scumreading aaron.

if you at least were saying: eh idk i don't townread him but it's bad and i don't have anywhere better to go and we're running otu of time so i'll just vote the game i'm underwhelmed by
than like find i'd understand that and think it's a believeable stance
but this is a really, really silly stance to take

and i see later you're complaining about me bop-ing you
yeah it's annoying af and i hate when people do it to me. i agree. but at the same time, it *is* a valid way to read people, and you're halfway decent at this, so vague excuses for shitty scumreads won't cut it, i'm sorry

and i do think that i ahve enuf experience with you to be able to see you can be bop'd; i'm not sure why you think i wouldn't - i've got 3 towngames with you and i read you correctly in all of them; i know what your towngame looks like, and i know your scumgame is very good

again me having a bad read doesn't make me scum, that's complete bullshit, you have no basis to claim i don't "truly believe" this. first reference you made to me being "underwhelming" was 1801, to a significant extent the basis of your read on me was the shit you tried to accuse me of when you outright misrepresented my read

you having a bad read makes you scum when it's a read that i don't think town-you would ever have, yes

getting BoP read pisses me off, having it done by someone i have barely played with and have no track record of success playing with both pisses me off and doesn't make any sense

like, you don't know me, step the hell off. i'm playing like i always do

like i'm not trying to piss you off; i've already said i'm more than happy to stop the bickering if i am
but i think you're scum and i can't just drop the scumread because you don't like that i'm scumreading you
i apologize for pissing you off tho, that is not my intent

i already went into this in 1666 and 1778 where i went over the reasons for voting him. i said i didn't find them convincing then, i don't think they are remotely silimar to why i scumread aaron and you attempting to flatting them into being similar is complete nonsense because you're obviously not really reading into or concerned with the details of the reads

i don't get the difference.
can you eli5 because maybe i'm just missing something super obvious
(and i think it's kinda silly that you're saying i'm 'not concerned with the details of your reads' in response to a question where i ask you to explain the details of your reads)

why is that not a read i'm supposed to have? this is absolutely ridiculous

you've seen me in 3 games as town where my reads have largely been poor

and now i am public enemy number 1 for having an incorrect read based on stuff i found scummy

that is completely nonsensical

like i refuse to believe you have such a confident view of my own thinking to believe i would never incorrectly scumread someone for bad posting because i have certainly done that beforethe expectation is totally out of line with reality and there's no good reason to actually feel that way

and whenever i try to argue against this stuff you feel like you're being evasive and trying to shut this down, i'm not going to let you disengage when your case on me is clearly terrible


the reason i feel like you're not concerned with the details of my reads is because you kept misrepresenting what my actual arguments were, i explain things, you just barrel on ahead saying the same crap, maybe you change things around a little bit, but i can tell clearly when none of the words i say actually matter to someone

the case against implo as best as i can tell is this: schiavetto felt he backpedaled from his reasoning for voting ben when called on it by secret hydra, he made a kind of jokey post that was bargaining for a vote (actually in hndsight maybe 1051 is bad), and his maneuvering around them was shady in how he he was following along with them on ben but then bristed at suspicion and expressed a willingness to vote them in a jokey way. at the time i thought he was making a lot out of nothing, those posts seemed basically insubstantial. infinity was just "implo is scummier to me because i agree with schiavetto, and a lot of people are saying implo is scum but not committing to the read", secret hydra didn't like the sheep vote, isis was just because he didn't seem upset enough about being scumread


again this stuff is not at all similar to why i scumread aaron and trying to act like it is or that it's outrageous for me to have a preference between the two is ridiculous

[petapan]

like idk i'm sobutthurt over the allegation that i'm not supposed to have that scumread that i want to dump my entire pregame notes in here

notes which are, in effect, null because they were written before i had a role but i'm so frustrated at the allegation i'm not supposed to be thinking a certain way that i want to prove a point

[Bridgeburners]

peta

the audience simply isn't there
nobody is reading this other than us two

like i'll happily continue to bicker with you but this isn't going to get traction for either of us so this is kinda pointless since i'm obviously not convincing you you're scum and you're not gonna convince me i'm scum either

~ skitteR

[petapan]

Spoiler:

implo's entry in 54-55 is BS-y but in a town way, i think

too many townreads from infinity in 57 is a little forced, 64 is okay though, scum maybe not going to call so many people townie early. nvm, tongue in cheek

datisi's early posting looks town, strong questioning

slight town on penguin's 103 reacting to implo calling him hardtown because he hadn't really said anything terribly town indicatve

aaronfrost non-serious vote on schiavetto in 77 is slightly scummy, ignores the momentum of the thread trending toward seriousness

scipio disagree with infinity but calling him town for it in 81 i don't like, feels manufactured

aaronfrost's 84 is scummy. don't like the question in 88, feels busywork. 100 is horribly scummy, generic fillery statement

datisi is just town

don't understand gypyx's reads in 98 at all

dislike the readlist from menalque in a few places. very strongly disagree with 140. dings infinity for too many TRs but not implosion

I like 142 from infinity, "i wanted to townread you for being funny but then i realized i was tring you for being funny" just feels townie

i vaguely townlean 149 from scipio even, though i shouldn't, just saying he can't understand bridge

maybe extreme jokiness from mena rather than immediately trying to look town is town-AI

ben's reads in 162 are all very vague

165 from af is ok in that i agree about infinity. don't like following the meme vote in in 167 while making an excuse about the slp

scipio reasoning in 169 on bridgeburners play is fine, "too bad to be scum" is over-assuming but i think he believes it

170-171 from implo is pretty decent, maybe pinged a little at how he dissected ben's posting

as widely noted isis's 175 is bad, the reasoning in it is just bizarre

on flipthrough of penguin's iso there's just not as much as i'd like to see from him

criticism of isis from skitter in 218 is valid, don't know about townread of ben, that post seems like nothing to me

220 from isis is vaguely town for reaction to being pushed by skitter

264 bit lost from notscience is an okay sentiment as not much in those pages stands out as AI

really hate 293 from aaronfrost, fencesits on isis

secret hydra spam starting from 318 is unimpressive

vaguely townlean ben's 358 as question about townreads on penguinis good and agreement with infinity is fine

strength of implo's townread on penguin in 369 makes no sense

scipio's 373 and 374 feels kind of artificial, but maybe a newer player would see everyone as townie

i really like datisi's 377

infinity's vote in 378 is almost townie for how he justifies it on wagon composition where i'd expect scum to be more cautious

scipio's 385 town for concern

really hate pp's ben vote in 393

end of 439 by notscience i don't like that much

like datisi's aaronfrost vote in 476 as i was feeling the same thing, reasoning in 483 i agree with

notty's vote on schiavetto in 489 is lazy, just seems to be on an inactive player

schiavetto's 495 is...okay

notsci questioning implo in 510 is okay

point on schiavetto's timing in 511 is fine but disagree with the view on datisi

still a little puzzled at strength of implo's read on penguin

ben doing newbie hydra tell in 519??

kind of don't like the "idk where to vote" from bridgeburners in 559

penguin exchange with isis from 620-625 looks towny

kinda of like isis on page 25

681 - datisi is extremely gettin nightkilled

don't really like inplo 737-738

762 from bridgeburners can be a townpost?

774 from implo says what i am thinking

814 from ico feels townie, the way he expresses diagreement with isis

don't try to tell me how i'm supposed to think

[Bridgeburners]

ok
i'm sorry
i'm not trying to piss you off

i'm not really sure what you're looking from me here tho

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

because i have certainly done that before

can you show me an example please?

[petapan]

because i have certainly done that before

can you show me an example please?

i feel like the pyp game was me having crappy tunnels of people for bad posting for multiple days in a row so it's alien to me that i'm to blame for suddenly having a wrong read in this game. i suppose you could also reference Micro 956 where i subbed in and had a similarly crappy tunnel on a new player for bad posting and wound up getting him eliminated even if i changed my mind at the last minute


but also i just did that note dump to prove that the idea i would

never

scumread his posts is just factually untrue

[Bridgeburners]

you had such Good Posting in pyp tho, and here you just kinda don't :/

maybe i'm tunneled. idk. if i am i don't know where scum is rn

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

like there we got: viewtopic.php?p=12276947#p12276947
and here we get you quoting a bunch of posts and going 'meh these are bad'

~ skitteR

[PenguinPower]

This whole exchange is somewhat meh.

Peta seems angrier than I remember though.

[Bridgeburners]

i mean i'm trying to end it, it's not going anywhere

i agree that he's being angry/emotional in a way that i wouldn't really associate with his towngame

~ skitter

[petapan]

strictly speaking it was a matter of effort i felt i needed to expend to get the vote where here i didn't feel it was necessary to fully present a blow by blow case

anyway i guess i'll just leave it off here for now and look at other things

[petapan]

if i'm different i'm just more bitter now where at the start of that game i was riding an unearned confidence high