Open 804: Popcorn Mafia Redux [Game Over!]

[unwnd]

I think you're misunderstanding something here

Are you saying you'd shoot your null reads instead of your scum reads if you got shot at?

Yeah I'd shoot one of them for the sake of the PoE/spite

Gun game brings a different set of rules

[Imperium]

Is it foolish to say that petapan seems like /exactly/ the sort of person to do something pulsating-universe-brain like that? I mean.... Town /or/ scum, just strikes me like the sort of person to get lost down rabbit holes that way.

He wouldn't do that if scum - if the scumread on us was just a gambit, he invested too much time in the gambit and not enough time solving the game and sharing his solve with the game.

[unwnd]

And don't get it twisted, I wouldn't be haphazardly shooting. I've already got it in my head who I want to shoot in my nulls. It might be a hipfire but I'm not putting on a blindfold

[Dunnstral]

I think you're misunderstanding something here

Are you saying you'd shoot your null reads instead of your scum reads if you got shot at?

Yeah I'd shoot one of them for the sake of the PoE/spite

Gun game brings a different set of rules

Yeah so this is what I meant
You framed it like it would be a suboptimal spite shot because you don't want mush to shoot you

This is what I'm saying feels out of character for you

I don't really understand the poe argument, why are your own scumreads not applicable? Note that it would be town giving you the gun, in this case, which would be different than if you got gunned during night

And don't get it twisted, I wouldn't be haphazardly shooting. I've already got it in my head who I want to shoot in my nulls. It might be a hipfire but I'm not putting on a blindfold

ok

[MUSHSHAGANA]

ScrewTheTells:

That is a bad towncase. I agree with every bit of it and still I think it is insufficient. I was expecting better. You're playing as a rationalist, for god's sake, give me some /meat/. Or is there no meat at all for Imperium? I'll accept that last one as a response, this one time only.

Let's talk now about your response to my deepwolf concerns. Because you have completely misunderstood them. It isn't about /me/ being /here/. It's about /them/ benefitting from me /not/ being here if they are scum. Scum gives me the gun in hopes of eliminating me. If I'm being "buddied" (their perception, not reality), they don't necessarily want me to be eliminated. First order misdirection: "Why the hell would I let my team give MUSH the gun? I needed her alive!" Anything deeper isn't very likely or sensible to consider, which is fine because I think this idea is well within the capabilities of about half of the player list to come up with and sensible enough to have a chance of working. You know, unless I put it out there that that might be what scum were trying... oops!

As for cooperative scum, one thing you'll learn about me is that if I find scum I can bounce my brain off of correctly, they can actively help me gamesolve. This isn't a common skill, but it's a simple one: it just involves lying through your teeth and manipulating them every step of the way. Like an asshole. I try not to be too mean, of course.

[unwnd]

Yeah so this is what I meant
You framed it like it would be a suboptimal spite shot because you don't want mush to shoot you

This is what I'm saying feels out of character for you

From my own interpretation--

You think I'm bluffing and saying all this to not get shot. You think I'm saying or threatening a hipfire to keep MUSH from shooting me. Me just telling you it would be spite is being honest, but you comprehend at least that even if I were spiteful It'd be with consideration. I'll tell one other thing...my reads can change. I want to work on getting that null pile less and less and I would feel more comfortable having the gun once that's sorted out because if I get it then I will be just lining them up like an adrenaline vigilante. If I get shot before that however? I'm gonna take a chance and shoot into my null because it will either 1) Give me more to work with if they somehow flip red 2) Give someone else the gun and I can die a thankless hero

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Although in all seriousness:

Mush, if I had the gun, I'd be hip firing NM/Norfolk ---> peta, let people react for 24 hours to see if Wheme had a super townie meltdown, then shoot him.

I'm extremely confident that Cakez is town. I'm decently confident that STT and unwnd are town. I would be surprised if Duunstral is scum.

Who do you want me to talk about?

BY EXTRA SPECIAL REQUEST!

I don't recall asking you who you would shoot. In fact, I'm not interested in who anyone would shoot right now. That information is easily manipulated garbage. I'm looking for information that people /do not know how to process/. I know what I'm after, but because no one else does, they have a very hard time faking it. Consistency is missing when I make multiple requests from them, consistency they don't even know should exist.

Now. As for what I want from you? Currently, nothing. Do your own thing. I am watching and processing.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I changed my mind, but only because it opens an otherwise nonexistent dialog.

Dunnstral! Give me your scum. All of them. Because I see you attack and attack and I see no substance come of it. Give me your scum and we will talk about your future and theirs.

[Imperium]

In fact, I'm not interested in who anyone would shoot right now. That information is easily manipulated garbage.

Heh. I love that we come from two entirely different schools if thought - I'm big into transparency because transparency is the best way that townies connect with each other and the hardest piece for scum to fake.

I don't mind you doing your thing at all - I'll do explanations of reads I haven't gotten the chance to get out into the world in chunks but I'm not going to go through it all.

My only ask is that you tell me if you're shooting outside of my scum pool (peta, NM, Norfolk, Wheme) before you shoot so that I can have a last ditch effort to change your mind.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

unwnd, I'm pointing the gun at you but making threats about what you'll do with it won't help you. It is a nonexistent issue in my mind.

If I think you're red, your spite shot cannot happen. Well, hold on. I mean... You might venge some poor townie if your team thinks its time to spend that token, but that's in the cards anyway.

Now, your conundrum is this: if I think you are red, and I have decided that I will shoot you, and the only thing that will make me change my mind is giving me a good enough reason not to, why would you simply throw these threats out that are, to me, entirely empty?

[unwnd]

Cause I think independently and if your gun is pointed at me, I'd rather die on my feet than on my knees.

[Dunnstral]

Yeah so this is what I meant
You framed it like it would be a suboptimal spite shot because you don't want mush to shoot you

This is what I'm saying feels out of character for you

From my own interpretation--

You think I'm bluffing and saying all this to not get shot. You think I'm saying or threatening a hipfire to keep MUSH from shooting me. Me just telling you it would be spite is being honest, but you comprehend at least that even if I were spiteful It'd be with consideration. I'll tell one other thing...my reads can change. I want to work on getting that null pile less and less and I would feel more comfortable having the gun once that's sorted out because if I get it then I will be just lining them up like an adrenaline vigilante. If I get shot before that however? I'm gonna take a chance and shoot into my null because it will either 1) Give me more to work with if they somehow flip red 2) Give someone else the gun and I can die a thankless hero

Yes, but I was also saying that if town you should reconsider

I'm not scumreading you as hard as you're interpreting here, I guess

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Hmmm. So, a question for the crowd. Does anyone else see the glaring issue with unwnd's response to me?

[unwnd]

Yeah so this is what I meant
You framed it like it would be a suboptimal spite shot because you don't want mush to shoot you

This is what I'm saying feels out of character for you

From my own interpretation--

You think I'm bluffing and saying all this to not get shot. You think I'm saying or threatening a hipfire to keep MUSH from shooting me. Me just telling you it would be spite is being honest, but you comprehend at least that even if I were spiteful It'd be with consideration. I'll tell one other thing...my reads can change. I want to work on getting that null pile less and less and I would feel more comfortable having the gun once that's sorted out because if I get it then I will be just lining them up like an adrenaline vigilante. If I get shot before that however? I'm gonna take a chance and shoot into my null because it will either 1) Give me more to work with if they somehow flip red 2) Give someone else the gun and I can die a thankless hero

Yes, but I was also saying that if town you should reconsider

I'm not scumreading you as hard as you're interpreting here, I guess

Make this more productive for me. Here are my nulls

You, Peta, STT, N_M

You don't want to see any of these shot? Why?

[Imperium]

Hmmm. So, a question for the crowd. Does anyone else see the glaring issue with unwnd's response to me?

No. I don't understand your push on unwnd even a little bit currently.

[Dunnstral]

I changed my mind, but only because it opens an otherwise nonexistent dialog.

Dunnstral! Give me your scum. All of them. Because I see you attack and attack and I see no substance come of it. Give me your scum and we will talk about your future and theirs.

I still think Norfolk mainly, I think I've given reasons here already; they look scummy, they continue to not post much as we got past the early game and there's no reason why that's town, the excuse where they don't want to have the gun early doesn't work anymore

After that, I think some scum have been hanging back. In my mind that pool of players is wheme, n_m, and previously rockhopper (peta isn't hanging back though)

Peta is kind of poe scummy for other reasons though, and since a lot of other people see them as scum and I don't really have my own opinion I have them as scummy

n_m and wheme probably has scum in it, even though wheme is more involved than n_m he's still relatively holding back it feels

So that's like, 3 of the 4 last scum. Last one

might

be unwnd, or it might be someone I'm not aware of. There's probably someone I'm not aware of.

[Dunnstral]

Yeah so this is what I meant
You framed it like it would be a suboptimal spite shot because you don't want mush to shoot you

This is what I'm saying feels out of character for you

From my own interpretation--

You think I'm bluffing and saying all this to not get shot. You think I'm saying or threatening a hipfire to keep MUSH from shooting me. Me just telling you it would be spite is being honest, but you comprehend at least that even if I were spiteful It'd be with consideration. I'll tell one other thing...my reads can change. I want to work on getting that null pile less and less and I would feel more comfortable having the gun once that's sorted out because if I get it then I will be just lining them up like an adrenaline vigilante. If I get shot before that however? I'm gonna take a chance and shoot into my null because it will either 1) Give me more to work with if they somehow flip red 2) Give someone else the gun and I can die a thankless hero

Yes, but I was also saying that if town you should reconsider

I'm not scumreading you as hard as you're interpreting here, I guess

Make this more productive for me. Here are my nulls

You, Peta, STT, N_M

You don't want to see any of these shot? Why?

I'm fine with you shooting in that group (barring myself)

The way you framed it is that it would be a sub-optimal spite shot over people you think are more likely to be scum because you're upset you got shot at

[Dunnstral]

Hmmm. So, a question for the crowd. Does anyone else see the glaring issue with unwnd's response to me?

I think I'm responding to it, yes

[unwnd]

I mean if I'm categorizing who I think in my nulls is more or less inclined to flip scum it'd be

N_M -> STT -> You -> Peta

They're still null though because I only consider someone scum confidently, I am not as confident in this pairing therefore I want to take a risk. You could even say N_M/STT border on null-scum.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Dunn, let's say you somehow magically get /one/ free shot from the mod right now, but it has to be at someone you townread or who is so widely townread that they would normally be untouchable. Who's your galaxy-brain shot here? The one where you think that the only way they go down is if you get the gun.

[Imperium]

I mean if I'm categorizing who I think in my nulls is more or less inclined to flip scum it'd be

N_M -> STT -> You -> Peta

They're still null though because I only consider someone scum confidently, I am not as confident in this pairing therefore I want to take a risk. You could even say N_M/STT border on null-scum.

Why do you think STT/Duunstral are scum?

Do you really think peta as town faked his townread on us because he was afraid of us getting venge-killed?

[unwnd]

I read that from him and felt it was so specific in ways that bordered on a bit convenient. Like, he just happened to engage for (determined reason) that basically resolves itself to (why he wouldn't do that as scum). I also don't really get why he said 'well sorry if this sounds stupid' because I dunno. If you had a plan why call it stupid. I am still however willing to give him a chance. I am still able to think 'well, maybe Peta really believes what's he saying.' You seem to have run your patience out way faster than me though.

Dunn is the fattest null there, reminder that'd be gun to head sorting nulls

[Dunnstral]

Dunn, let's say you somehow magically get /one/ free shot from the mod right now, but it has to be at someone you townread or who is so widely townread that they would normally be untouchable. Who's your galaxy-brain shot here? The one where you think that the only way they go down is if you get the gun.

That's a hard question to answer because it's not how I think about games

But of people I townread, I'd say STT has the most chance of pulling the wool over my eyes just from playstyle

Imperium has gotten into a groove where I don't see them as scum

[Dunnstral]

Dunn is the fattest null there, reminder that'd be gun to head sorting nulls

[MUSHSHAGANA]

So, Dunn, it might seem like I'm getting a bit personal here. If you feel that way, please understand that it's only personal for you. Not for me.

So, my real question here is... Why have you got basically no read progression on anyone since Day 1? I mean, I'll give you Imperium. But changing /one read/ in /two dayphases/ in a game that started with /11 unknown players/ (you know your alignment and everyone knew Netflix's)? I mean, that's crap, isn't it? So what's the excuse here?