Open 90 - Trendy and Subversive C9 Mafia Wins! before 656

[farside22]

Well after realizing that I didn't read part of the thread, I reread it, then posted my opinions. The posts aren't that long, and there are only 25ish posts per page. Catching up took about twenty minutes (probably, this was the other day I can't remember exactly and I don't care enough to check). I almost never base my suspicions on mistakes, but rather on tone and word choice. It usually serves me well.

If you want to lynch me for a dumb mistake go ahead, but it would be a mistake.

being a newbie to this game, I've made mistakes in every game I plaed, and learned from them, but how does "tone and word choice" possibly help? is there a list of words to use if scum VS. town? since your experienced at this game I'd love to be educated on that! I figured most experienced players would have a good poker face and be consistant with tone and word choice in all games.

This statement is playing a newbie card in my opinion.

[iamausername]

If everyone agrees that the deputy should out him/herself, I think we should do it in a popcorn claim style; vote on a person to go first claiming deputy or not deputy, then they pick the next person, and so on until we've all claimed.

I think if there was a deputy they would have said something by now. Doing this just seems like a waste of time.

Eh, I guess. I'd still like everyone to explicitly claim deputy or not deputy, but yeah, the order probably doesn't matter.

I'm not a deputy.

---

And here comes the promised PBPA:

farside

Is definitely reading as solidly pro-town to me. If there's anything that worries me about her D1 play, it's that she kept her vote off of anyone for most of the day; I'm a little worried about a lack of commitment to any one position. This could be a sign of scum waiting to see which way the votes are flowing, but could equally be a sign of town who hasn't figured out any clear idea of who the scum is. I'm leaning towards the latter, because most of her attacks do feel genuine.

Also having trouble seeing a scum partner for her; Mirth seems like the obvious choice on the surface, but (and feel free to call WIFOM on this if you like) I've never seen scumbuddies follow each other's thoughts so closely early on.

Mirth

Was my #1 scum pick yesterday, but since the person I suspected as her partner flipped town, I need to re-evaluate.

Reading Mirth in isolation makes a Mirth/farside pairing look more palatable, actually. Mirth's early voting farside to see how she'd react looks a lot like early distancing. If Mirth is town, I don't know what she expected to achieve with this. How would you expect scum farside to react differently to "my vote on you is for a serious reason, but I'm not telling you what it is!"?

I still really don't like how Mirth makes such a big deal about retro 'correcting' his random vote. Also, disagreeing with her assertion that "half the reason to do anything in this game is to convince others that you are town", although that's more of a game theory thing than any alignment indication, I guess.

As of Post #97, I'm now thinking the most likely explanation for the apparent Mirth/farside link is Mirth deliberately setting farside up for a fall if she goes down. (AKA buddying).

Oh hey, someone brought up my WIFOMish reason to not think Mirth/farside are scum together already. Aaaaand, Mirth responds with this: "being obviously in agreement with someone doesn't automatically exclude anyone from being a scum pair. Don't write us off so quickly." Wow. I can't see why a town player would be arguing

for

the possibility of themselves as scum with anyone. I really think scum Mirth is buddying with town farside.

Post #121. Mirth responds to my accusations by asking why I specifically think she's scum with farside, when I actually made no mention of a possible partner for her at that time. She's really pushing a farside connection.

sekinj looks like a more likely partner for her than retro; the consistent overstating of retro's mistakes doesn't seem like bussing, while she attacks sek quite often, but never seems to put her above retro as a suspect; textbook distancing, I'd say. Also think there's some significance to the fact that Mirth brings up almost every possible partner for herself

besides

sekinj between #121 and #156.

retrowiz

retro is clearly very newbie, which doesn't tell me anything much either way on his alignment. Not a lot of substance from him early on.

Suggesting Mirth/farside as masons in #115 is indeed scummy, as Mirth pointed out; regardless of the fact that there's no chance of masons in the setup, it's rolefishing.

Yeah, there really isn't a lot here to analyze. He's pushed a Mirth/farside pairing, so if he's scum, I'd guess sekinj as his partner.

sekinj

sekinj thinks random votes are stupid. Her alternative method for getting the game started is to ask "who here is evil?" OK, I hope that works out for you, kiddo.

Post #98: The accusation that Mirth and farside are ignoring Az is odd, and may be an attempt to distract attention away from retro. I still agree with sekinj's defence of retro, but it is somewhat fishy that she readily gives retro the benefit of the doubt for his mistake but fails to do the same for Azrael.

Post #136 does not seem at all sincere.

I don't care what sekinj says, her retro vote did pretty much come out of nowhere.

Post #200. "I won't drop the hammer, but I have no problem with the Az lynch." So, so scummy. Also, you haven't examined the arguments against Az carefully? Why the hell not? In fact, throughout Day 1, sekinj put in little comments nudging the Azrael wagon along, while keeping herself pretty distanced from it. Yeah, scummy scum scum.

---

USERNAME'S SCUMTEAM PICKS

:

1. Mirth/sekinj
2. retro/sekinj
3. Mirth/retro
4. farside/sekinj
5. farside/Mirth
6. farside/retro

I've got a lot more evidence against Mirth individually, but I don't really see any scumteams besides the top two as altogether likely, so a sekinj vote looks pretty good.

[sekinj]

lol I guess I can't help but come off scummy.

I wasn't convinced enough of the Az scum to drop the hammer, but neither was I convinced enough of his town to try to defend him.

[Mirth]

Iam, I would have expected her to react *more* not just shrug it off. How is 97 buddying exactly? I'm answering a question that is horribly obvious. As for town players arguing for possibilities that they're scum, well because I always do it. I *HATE* it when people write something off off hand and when people soft-claim town. I do neither. I've played the "well I might be scum card" both as town and as scum.

As for 121, here's the explanation:

either your scum partners, or a masons...I'll hold that verdict for a bit though.

Well, since it's impossible to have masons in this setup, I know which one I'd go for.

Unvote, Vote: Mirth

. Az could definitely do with being less vague, but I'm still finding Mirth considerably scummier than him at this point.

You said this in reference to Retro saying that Farside and I either had to be scum or masons. You said we can't be masons so you'd lean toward scum. I asked why you'd think I'm scum with Farside. Does that make it clearer?

Oh I missed Sek as a partner? That's a shame. I very well could be scum with Sek, yes.

[retrowiz]

My top Pairing is still
Mirth/Farside.
but I am adding Mirth/Sek second on my list.

I'm tempted to propose a strong look at voting Mirth since she seems to be on eveyones top pairings list. other than Sek, which doesn't seem to have any suspects.

[Mirth]

So that boils down to "mirth is suspicious because everyone else says so"? Great reason.

[sekinj]

I'm tempted to propose a strong look at voting Mirth since she seems to be on eveyones top pairings list. other than Sek, which doesn't seem to have any suspects.

@retro: I believe that should be 'who' not 'which'... I am a conscious being after all. Oh, and you could try reading as well.

iam - for agreeing with me about retro. feels like buddying. Last time this happened to me, the other guy was scum. Iam also did it to Strife when strife said I was the most town player, who we know was town. He is also coaching in his post 17, which seems scummy.
far - always plays very townie, this time I think it's fake.
mirth - seems to have good agression tactics, sometimes goes off half cocked.

[iamausername]

How is 97 buddying exactly? I'm answering a question that is horribly obvious.

Just something in the way you said "I can answer this for farside, if she doesn't mind" rather than just straight answering the question feels off to me.

As for town players arguing for possibilities that they're scum, well because I always do it. I *HATE* it when people write something off off hand and when people soft-claim town. I do neither. I've played the "well I might be scum card" both as town and as scum.

Do you mind digging up some links to games where you've done this as town before? It seems so counter-intuitive to me. Especially when elsewhere you say "half the reason to do anything in this game is to convince others that you are town"; I don't see how this could help with that aim.

As for 121, here's the explanation:

either your scum partners, or a masons...I'll hold that verdict for a bit though.

Well, since it's impossible to have masons in this setup, I know which one I'd go for.

Unvote, Vote: Mirth

. Az could definitely do with being less vague, but I'm still finding Mirth considerably scummier than him at this point.

You said this in reference to Retro saying that Farside and I either had to be scum or masons. You said we can't be masons so you'd lean toward scum. I asked why you'd think I'm scum with Farside. Does that make it clearer?

That does make sense, yeah. I just meant it as you two being scum is more likely than you two being masons, since that is impossible, not that I actually thought it was a likely scum pairing, but I can certainly see why you'd interpret it otherwise.

---

sekinj, do you want to try answering my questions to you in #222? And, while you're at it, why do you think the town feeling you get from farside is 'fake' this time?

[Mirth]

Eh, thought I'd be polite.

Sure I'll find you posts in townie games where I've done this, but it might take a while since i still have a few more days of a rather time-consuming training left to go. You'll get it probably this weekend.

As for counterintuitive, for me it isn't. My theory of the game is this: you play to convince others that you're town but claiming that you're town is *not* a protown action unless you are forced to claim. Also, I believe in making people use their brains. I'm not going to claim anything in regards to roles or whatever unless I have to because I don't believe it is helpful until it becomes necessary.I will only claim this: I may be town, I may be scum, I know which I am, and if I have partners they know, and if I don't have partners the scum knows.

[retrowiz]

I'm tempted to propose a strong look at voting Mirth since she seems to be on eveyones top pairings list. other than Sek, which doesn't seem to have any suspects.

@retro: I believe that should be 'who' not 'which'... I am a conscious being after all. Oh, and you could try reading as well.

grammer not my strong point. deal with it. besides "sekinj" is that a name or object. who knows?

iam - for agreeing with me about retro. feels like buddying. Last time this happened to me, the other guy was scum. Iam also did it to Strife when strife said I was the most town player, who we know was town. He is also coaching in his post 17, which seems scummy.
far - always plays very townie, this time I think it's fake.
mirth - seems to have good agression tactics, sometimes goes off half cocked.

are we to assume you see Iam as a suspect from this? is that as much conviction you ever have on lylo? I was hoping when you had a suspect it whould be more pointed than THAT!!

[retrowiz]

So that boils down to "mirth is suspicious because everyone else says so"? Great reason.

not even close Mirth...guess you havn't been reading...Mirth/Farside is a pairing I've seen for awhile.. I picked you out cause the others seem to agree with that part of the opinion at least.

nice try at diversion.

[farside22]

lol I guess I can't help but come off scummy.

I wasn't convinced enough of the Az scum to drop the hammer, but neither was I convinced enough of his town to try to defend him.

That's not wishy washy at all.

Iam: Thanks for the analysis. I am surprised about the read with Mirth. Usually when I see someone following or buddying up to someone I use that as a newbie scum tell. I don't know too many experience players I see doing that, but it's not unheard of. I think I need to read that for myself again to see if I feel the same way.

I've played the "well I might be scum card" both as town and as scum.

I can't care for people who play like this. If you are town you should be fighting to make a point and not play coy.

[Mirth]

Farside: I am fighting to make a point. I dont want to be in a game with people who ignore ll the possibilities.

Actually, Retro, as far as I can tell your whole suspicion of me amounts to I'm scum with Farside because we answered questions for each other. Tell me why I'm scum in isolation like Iam did, please.

[sekinj]

grammer not my strong point. deal with it. besides "sekinj" is that a name or object. who knows?

Neither is BBcode apparently. And it's called a "username"; something unique that you make up to identify yourself online. Since I had to explain that to you, I'm assuming 'retrowiz' is your given name?

iam - for agreeing with me about retro. feels like buddying. Last time this happened to me, the other guy was scum. Iam also did it to Strife when strife said I was the most town player, who we know was town. He is also coaching in his post 17, which seems scummy.
far - always plays very townie, this time I think it's fake.
mirth - seems to have good agression tactics, sometimes goes off half cocked.

are we to assume you see Iam as a suspect from this? is that as much conviction you ever have on lylo? I was hoping when you had a suspect it whould be more pointed than THAT!!

That is what a suspect list is... a list of suspects. And yes, iam is right there at the top of mine. You can even go back and look at it in context if you wish (it is Post 217 as referenced above). I didn't even bother listing you because I am the first to admit that my suspicions of you may well be completely biased by your utter noobility.

I can also wish that I had a better idea of who is scum, but at least I'm not just picking the common factor in everyone else's scum list.

[sekinj]

sekinj, do you want to try answering my questions to you in #222? And, while you're at it, why do you think the town feeling you get from farside is 'fake' this time?

thanks for reminding me of this. I meant to answer, but I got distracted by the wiz-kid.

[sekinj]

lol I guess I can't help but come off scummy.

I wasn't convinced enough of the Az scum to drop the hammer, but neither was I convinced enough of his town to try to defend him.

That's not wishy washy at all.

I wasn't making any point regarding my conviction or lack there of. I just truthfully didn't have a read on Az, but wanted to be sure to comment on it before the lynch happened so that it didn't look like i was avoiding the subject.

[sekinj]

iam - for agreeing with me about retro. feels like buddying.

Do you think I was buddying with you or retro?

It seems like you were buddying with me.

Why do you think it was buddying, and not simply a town player agreeing with your eminently reasonable position?

because you used the word eminently. No, really it just seems like buddying because from my point of view everyone was attacking me and then suddenly your swooped in with your knightly avatar and agreed with me.

Iam also did it to Strife when strife said I was the most town player, who we know was town.

I assume you mean Az, since strife definitely didn't say that. Again, why do you think it was buddying?

Yes, I meant Az, thanks for the correction. You just seemed very bent on defending the underdogs during the first few pages. Like you are bent on saving people from the evils of being hunted as scum.

He is also coaching in his post 17, which seems scummy.

Why? If retro were my scumbuddy, as I assume you are insinuating, don't you think I'd have explained this to him during the night?

Probably, unless you didn't think retro would make it to night, or if you thought it was innocent enough to say it during the day, or urgent enough to say it during the day.

Post #98: The accusation that Mirth and farside are ignoring Az is odd, and may be an attempt to distract attention away from retro. I still agree with sekinj's defence of retro, but it is somewhat fishy that she readily gives retro the benefit of the doubt for his mistake but fails to do the same for Azrael.

I explained this already:

because retro's mistake was obvious in his first post about it. He says, "same reason, wrong name beside it" which references back to his first random vote against me. So, he was obviously still random voting, however badly he mis-read the thread and however misguided his attempt to 'correct' a random vote, he was still random voting. He then unvoted 5 minutes later because has was done with random voting as he states in Post 36.

Az on the other hand, breaks into the middle of the serious discussion with what looks like an all out attack without anything to back it up. He leaves it that way for over 24 hours, and only then comes back and says he made a mistake.

these are drastically different. I'm not saying Az is scum (which is why I haven't voted him), but I am saying his mistake was much more scummy.

Post #136 does not seem at all sincere.

well, it was.

I don't care what sekinj says, her retro vote did pretty much come out of nowhere.

You mean, you don't care to look at the evidence to the contrary? I was making posts that disagreed or ridiculed retro at least a week before voting him.

Post #200. "I won't drop the hammer, but I have no problem with the Az lynch." So, so scummy. Also, you haven't examined the arguments against Az carefully? Why the hell not? In fact, throughout Day 1, sekinj put in little comments nudging the Azrael wagon along, while keeping herself pretty distanced from it. Yeah, scummy scum scum.

Because after his initial blunder he didn't seem that scummy to me (or that townie). But as we got closer to deadline, it looks like everyone else thought he was scum, SO, I wanted to be sure to comment on him before he was lynched. I didnt' want to avoid the subject although I didn't have anything to add.

[retrowiz]

grammer not my strong point. deal with it. besides "sekinj" is that a name or object. who knows?

Neither is BBcode apparently. And it's called a "username"; something unique that you make up to identify yourself online. Since I had to explain that to you, I'm assuming 'retrowiz' is your given name?

iam - for agreeing with me about retro. feels like buddying. Last time this happened to me, the other guy was scum. Iam also did it to Strife when strife said I was the most town player, who we know was town. He is also coaching in his post 17, which seems scummy.
far - always plays very townie, this time I think it's fake.
mirth - seems to have good agression tactics, sometimes goes off half cocked.

are we to assume you see Iam as a suspect from this? is that as much conviction you ever have on lylo? I was hoping when you had a suspect it whould be more pointed than THAT!!

That is what a suspect list is... a list of suspects. And yes, iam is right there at the top of mine. You can even go back and look at it in context if you wish (it is Post 217 as referenced above). I didn't even bother listing you because I am the first to admit that my suspicions of you may well be completely biased by your utter noobility.

I can also wish that I had a better idea of who is scum, but at least I'm not just picking the common factor in everyone else's scum list.

wow...so I'm not a suspect of yours at all...thats quite impressive. and you are apparently not reading my posts either...such a waste of time.

@ Mirth buddying was my big reasoning for you but I'll look for more fresh stuff if I can, knowing that anything I find that has already been commented on shall be considered useless by all as well..lets see if there are any weak scraps left.

[Mirth]

And it seems I'm right. I'm scum because I answered a couple questions for Farside and I must be lynched because Iam thinks I'm scum. Way to use your scumhunting skills, Retro.

Iam: here's one where I offer the possibility of me being scum in a town game. will find more later. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 29#1105929

[retrowiz]

I will be away till 22nd. I might be able to comment now and again, but sporatic at best.

[farside22]

sekinj, do you want to try answering my questions to you in #222? And, while you're at it, why do you think the town feeling you get from farside is 'fake' this time?

thanks for reminding me of this. I meant to answer, but I got distracted by the wiz-kid.

An answer for this would be nice. I was going to ask and saw Iam beat me to the punch.

@Retro: Did you read Iam's point that Mirth could be trying to buddy up by agreeing or defending me as such? I think you are trying to hard to see that as scum defending each other then actual scum hunting. I have already stated that I will not be answering any more question for Mirth.

Looking back and reading myself I still don't get the same impression that Iam had in regards to Mirth. Or course I did feel that Mirth ignoring Iam and attacking others questionable. Sure it can be written off, but attacking the less experience players in the game and not attacking everyone just looks like scum playing safe in my opinion.

@Mirth reading your comment a little more indepth I realized I did miss your point it was just that one line that caught my attention. For me in lylo situation and I'm town I point out why players are scummy and not defend myself as much. Defending in lylo does and doesn't work but it's not my priority. My priority is to point out scumminess of others.

[Mirth]

Farside: and my priority is to get everyone to use their own heads. I defend myself when I need to, but I will never claim "town" just for the sake of claiming town.

[sekinj]

sekinj, do you want to try answering my questions to you in #222? And, while you're at it, why do you think the town feeling you get from farside is 'fake' this time?

thanks for reminding me of this. I meant to answer, but I got distracted by the wiz-kid.

An answer for this would be nice. I was going to ask and saw Iam beat me to the punch.

See post 241.

[farside22]

sekinj, do you want to try answering my questions to you in #222? And, while you're at it, why do you think the town feeling you get from farside is 'fake' this time?

thanks for reminding me of this. I meant to answer, but I got distracted by the wiz-kid.

An answer for this would be nice. I was going to ask and saw Iam beat me to the punch.

See post 241.

I'm not seeing an answer for why I seem fake to you in your response.

[sekinj]

EBWOP: Oh, nevermind. In answering all of iam's other questions I guess I forgot the one farside would be most interested in.

She can't be town all the time. I think it is odd that iam always thinks farside plays scummy, and I always thinks she plays townie.

In this game at first her and mirth were going side by side. When that was pointed out, mirth embraced it and said basically said that it could indeed be a scumtell, while farside distanced herself from it. That made it seem more like mirth was town and farside could be scum. I know when I am town I am less concerned that my action appear scummy.