Mini 660 - Star Trek: DS9 Mafia (Ruined = Over)

[Timeater]

That is, in fact, wrong. I can think of at least two other Klingon characters appearing in more than one episode (and several Klingons appearing in only one episode).

Um, no its not. Gauron is the only other Klingon that has some sort of real-recurring role on ds9. And maybe the dah-har master guy, but even he's a two-three episoder guy. While Martok and Worf have 20+ episodes under their belt.

No. CallMeLiam is claiming that a Klingon might not be town-aligned. And yes, there are Klingons on the show that would fit there perfectly.

Yes, but why would you want to claim them? That makes no sense. Also, those characters are extremly minor at best.

That dominion cowards bit is hardly an indicator of shapeshifters. The dominion is known for trickery and deception sure, but I think you're reading into deli's post a bit much there. Klingons call all their enemies cowards. I've seen Paradise lost and I think you're missing the point of the episode. Sisco accused his own father of being a shapeshifter, crossing the line. Same goes for this setup. If we start accusing everyone of being a shapeshifter all the time, all reason just goes out the window.

[sekinj]

I'll go ahead and put my money (aka vote) where my mouth is.

Vote: Liam

[Light-kun]

FoS Light-Kun

for trying to disassociate himself from lurkers when he himself only has 11 posts.

I post approx. once a day, however, since I didn't know that the game had started for 2-3 pages, I don't really see how this has much water. (Unless of course, you are saying I am scummy for not knowing the game had started.)

Anyway, td posted, so as promised:

Unvote

Now, to look at someone random and see what they did for the thread:

Nudude:
1- Random vote!
2-It could possibly be worf? I believe this would be part of the early game nerdfest.
3-Acknowledges someone's hardcore Star Trek knowledge.
4-Asks if anyone is up for a game of quarks.
5-Reminds us of how to reprimanded novices. (Don't yell with caps, explain what you think is wrong, Zoneace.)
6-asks if anti-federation players would know each other before game.
7- Promises to make more decent posts eventually, after he is settled.

Okay, now, Liam hasn't seemed to be the most helpful of all the players, but I feel that having 6 posts (and then the promise to post post) of absolutely 0% content is pretty anti town on page 13, due to heavy lurking. Also, it is just the absolute lack of content in his post that bug me. I mean, I know some players who don't post often (perhaps intentionally), but they really put some content in their posts. (And they would, at least, post more than seven times over 13 pages, but meh.)

However, when it comes down to a decision between a player who looks scummy and someone who is heavily lurking, I will favor the one who seemed scummy.

Vote: CallmeLiam

[Timeater]

Delibird: Count and Prods please?

[ChannelDelibird]

"I want a Vote Count and I want it now and that is an order. Understood, Mr. Nog?"

CallMeLiam (4): frelaras, Timeater, sekinj, Light-kun

td (2): ZONEACE, Ozymandius

Not voting (5): farside22, CallMeLiam, td, Mana_Ku, Nudude

With 11 alive, 6 votes will lynch.

Checking prod-worthy players.

EDIT: No players prodded, the only player who qualifies is Nudude who promised posts by the weekend, so I'll wait a little longer for him to catch up before prodding. Thanks everyone for keeping the activity up!

[td]

Um, no its not. Gauron is the only other Klingon that has some sort of real-recurring role on ds9. And maybe the dah-har master guy, but even he's a two-three episoder guy. While Martok and Worf have 20+ episodes under their belt.

Besides him being spelt “Gowron,” which part of “appearing in more than one episode” is so difficult to understand? They appear more than once, therefore, they are recurring characters. Also, since they appear in episodes, they are on the show.

--

Yes, but why would you want to claim them? That makes no sense. Also, those characters are extremly minor at best.

--

That dominion cowards bit is hardly an indicator of shapeshifters. The dominion is known for trickery and deception sure, but I think you're reading into deli's post a bit much there.

ChannelDelibird's post makes it clear that the Dominion is the enemy. Ultimately, the Dominion is the Founders, and the Founders are shapeshifters. Since the Dominion is involved, it is highly likely that the Founders are involved, too.

--

Klingons call all their enemies cowards.

No. In the Klingon mindset, “coward” is a huge insult and thus used (relatively) sparingly. I don't have a canon source for that, but have you ever seen a Jem'Hadar being called coward by a Klingon on the show? I don't recall that happening. Now, since Klingons and Jem'Hadar are enemies and no Klingon called te Jem'Hadar cowards, they obviously don't call all their enemies cowards.

--

I've seen Paradise lost and I think you're missing the point of the episode. Sisco accused his own father of being a shapeshifter, crossing the line. Same goes for this setup. If we start accusing everyone of being a shapeshifter all the time, all reason just goes out the window.

Yes, but still,

anybody

could be a shapeshifter.

--

4-Asks if anyone is up for a game of quarks.

Actually, he's asking for a game

at Quark's

, which is a bar run by the Ferengi Quark. The game itself is called “Dabo”.

[Light-kun]

4-Asks if anyone is up for a game of quarks.

Actually, he's asking for a game

at Quark's

, which is a bar run by the Ferengi Quark. The game itself is called “Dabo”.

Sorry, I don't watch the show, so I wasn't sure what he was talking about. *Still don't, but thanks for the correction.*

[Timeater]

Besides him being spelt “Gowron,” which part of “appearing in more than one episode” is so difficult to understand? They appear more than once, therefore, they are recurring characters. Also, since they appear in episodes, they are on the show.

Sorry - no.

Gowron

appears in seven episodes, and Kor appears in two episodes. Those are not recurring roles. They're guest stars. Thanks for playing.

ChannelDelibird's post makes it clear that the Dominion is the enemy. Ultimately, the Dominion is the Founders, and the Founders are shapeshifters. Since the Dominion is involved, it is highly likely that the Founders are involved, too.

Woah, thats some pretty hardcore logic there, where'd you learn that, Vulcan? The founders aren't usually footsoldiers. They're not gonna be on ds9 killing people probably. They're more tricky and manipulatey-ish than that. I just think a changeling role would be really OP. I mean how would it work, kill the person then assume role? Lets say bob the changeling kills bashir during the night, what would happen? Its hard to speculate now.

No. In the Klingon mindset, “coward” is a huge insult and thus used (relatively) sparingly. I don't have a canon source for that, but have you ever seen a Jem'Hadar being called coward by a Klingon on the show? I don't recall that happening. Now, since Klingons and Jem'Hadar are enemies and no Klingon called te Jem'Hadar cowards, they obviously don't call all their enemies cowards.

WOW. You're wrong BIGTIME there. Klingons almost ALWAYS call their enemies cowards. Sure its a big insult, but its like our equivalent of 'bastard'. And thats hardly an example. I'm pretty sure Klingons called the Jem'Hadar cowards on multiple occasions. I know your wrong there and I will start quoting canon if you make me.

Yes, but still, anybody could be a shapeshifter.

On d1? Unlikely. My stance is while shapeshifting is probable at this point in the game, I dont think they would have already assumed a character role

on d1

. Unless they got to do it during pregame but I find that unlikely for other reasons. Lets ask ourselves about shapeshifters. Will they be immune to regular cops? Will they be immune to conventional vigs? Will they get the powers of the role they assume? Or does the shapeshifter already have a main character role?

We do know there will be a certain shapeshifter on our side, and I dont think he will be able to be impersonated. Said shapeshifter will probably be the only one able to track down the other shapeshifter. At least thats comforting. Thats all speculation, though.

[td]

Sorry - no.

Gowron

appears in seven episodes, and Kor appears in two episodes. Those are not recurring roles. They're guest stars. Thanks for playing.

“Guest stars” is a concept that is completely orthogonal towards “recurring roles,” because (nearly) everyone not on the main cast is a guest star (including most characters only appearing in a single episode); even Martok is

credited

as a guest star. Yet you obviously wouldn't want to argue that he's not a recurring role. Besides, Kor appears in three episodes.

Also, your original claim was that there were no other Klingons on the show besides Worf and Martok (which is obviously wrong) and I don't like how you try to spin definitions such that your statement doesn't seem that way.

--

Woah, thats some pretty hardcore logic there, where'd you learn that, Vulcan? The founders aren't usually footsoldiers. They're not gonna be on ds9 killing people probably. They're more tricky and manipulatey-ish than that. I just think a changeling role would be really OP. I mean how would it work, kill the person then assume role? Lets say bob the changeling kills bashir during the night, what would happen? Its hard to speculate now.

Where'd you get the idea that the Founders were “on ds9 killing people probably?” For the rest, see below.

--

WOW. You're wrong BIGTIME there. Klingons almost ALWAYS call their enemies cowards. Sure its a big insult, but its like our equivalent of 'bastard'. And thats hardly an example. I'm pretty sure Klingons called the Jem'Hadar cowards on multiple occasions. I know your wrong there and I will start quoting canon if you make me.

No. “Coward” is way stronger than “bastard,” it's basically reserved for people without honor (it's also part of the Ritual of Discommendation, in which a Klingon is stripped of his honor in the Klingon society). The Jem'Hadar are, in fact, honorable warriors (confer “By Inferno's Light,” 5x15).

--

On d1? Unlikely. My stance is while shapeshifting is probable at this point in the game, I dont think they would have already assumed a character role

on d1

. Unless they got to do it during pregame but I find that unlikely for other reasons. Lets ask ourselves about shapeshifters. Will they be immune to regular cops? Will they be immune to conventional vigs? Will they get the powers of the role they assume? Or does the shapeshifter already have a main character role?

When Martok was first introduced in “The Way of the Warrior,” he was in fact a Changeling replacement. It wasn't until “Apocalypse Rising” (a whole season later) that this would be revealed and not until “In Purgatory's Shadow” (again, half a season later) that the

real

Martok would be introduced. I don't actually see a problem why

any

player could have been replaced from the start (also, since we seem to have unknowingly spent the first half of the day in a Holosuite, there had to be some kind of “switchover” bringing all of us there, which would have made it easy to actually replace someone).

[Ozymandius]

Since we don't have information either way, I'm not sure how useful it is speculating whether or not changelings have already assumed a form or not at this point in time. We don't know how certain things work yet.

[Timeater]

“Guest stars” is a concept that is completely orthogonal towards “recurring roles,” because (nearly) everyone not on the main cast is a guest star (including most characters only appearing in a single episode); even Martok is credited as a guest star. Yet you obviously wouldn't want to argue that he's not a recurring role. Besides, Kor appears in three episodes.

I highly doubt delibird would include guest stars in a ds9 mafia. Sure, Garak was a

techinically

a guest star, but he hardly was assumes the lesser roles of gowron and kor. There are more than enough real recurring characters on ds9 to make roles everyone for without having to resort to extremely minor guest stars. True, Martok was a guest star

originally

but eventually he became apart of the full-fledged cast (like Garak, for instance) but was still was a minor role and was not in every episode. I never claimed that Worf and Martok were the only ones, only that it was highly unlikely that there would be any other Klingon roles besides those two in the mafia game. How is that not fair of me to assume?

Where'd you get the idea that the Founders were “on ds9 killing people probably?” For the rest, see below.

I didnt? You're one of the people implying we should be extremely paranoid about changelings. Because if we do have an enemy shapeshifter, thats exactly what we're gonna be facing, a founder on ds9 killing people.

No. “Coward” is way stronger than “bastard,” it's basically reserved for people without honor (it's also part of the Ritual of Discommendation, in which a Klingon is stripped of his honor in the Klingon society). The Jem'Hadar are, in fact, honorable warriors (confer “By Inferno's Light,” 5x15).

Can we agree to disagree with this? I also think that Delibird's flavor scenes should be taken as just that, flavor. Reading into the tiniest little sentiments he may put into a flavor scene is probably not a good idea.

When Martok was first introduced in “The Way of the Warrior,” he was in fact a Changeling replacement. It wasn't until “Apocalypse Rising” (a whole season later) that this would be revealed and not until “In Purgatory's Shadow” (again, half a season later) that the real Martok would be introduced. I don't actually see a problem why any player could have been replaced from the start (also, since we seem to have unknowingly spent the first half of the day in a Holosuite, there had to be some kind of “switchover” bringing all of us there, which would have made it easy to actually replace someone).

I'd like to note that "Apocalypse Rising" was the episode directly AFTER "The Way of The Warrior" so really, changeling Martok was not around a whole lot. Neither was changeling Bashir. I dont think thats a reasonable line of thought. *shrug*]

Hoping to hear from Liam soon...

[Light-kun]

First: What is a "changeling?"

Second: *knocks* LIAM!? WHERE ARE YOU!

Mod, prod if possible

[td]

I highly doubt delibird would include guest stars in a ds9 mafia. Sure, Garak was a

techinically

a guest star, but he hardly was assumes the lesser roles of gowron and kor. There are more than enough real recurring characters on ds9 to make roles everyone for without having to resort to extremely minor guest stars. True, Martok was a guest star

originally

but eventually he became apart of the full-fledged cast (like Garak, for instance) but was still was a minor role and was not in every episode.

How did Garak come into this? Also, both Garak and Martok are still credited as “Guest Stars” in the very last episode of DS9 (although Garak was a “Special Guest Star”). So no, they were not part of the main cast.

Also, Vic Fontaine was a “Special Guest Star” (but a “Special Guest Appearance” in “What You Leave Behind”), appearing in only seven episodes (eight if you count the mirror-Fontaine in “The Emperor's New Cloak,” which is basically him stepping through a door and getting shot).

--

I never claimed that Worf and Martok were the only ones, only that it was highly unlikely that there would be any other Klingon roles besides those two in the mafia game. How is that not fair of me to assume?

Worf and Martok are really the only Klingon characters on the show.

…

--

You're one of the people implying we should be extremely paranoid about changelings.

No. I was implying that we shouldn't dismiss the possibility of people being changelings.

--

Because if we do have an enemy shapeshifter, thats exactly what we're gonna be facing, a founder on ds9 killing people.

Why killing? A founder on DS9, yes. A Founder impersonating people, yes. A Founder killing people, however, is rather unlikely.

--

I also think that Delibird's flavor scenes should be taken as just that, flavor. Reading into the tiniest little sentiments he may put into a flavor scene is probably not a good idea.

That is probably a good idea, yes.

--

I'd like to note that "Apocalypse Rising" was the episode directly AFTER "The Way of The Warrior" so really, changeling Martok was not around a whole lot. Neither was changeling Bashir. I dont think thats a reasonable line of thought. *shrug*

If you only look at episodes with Martok in them, then yes. If you look at the time frame of the whole series, things do look different. Also, changeling-Bashir was around for at least five episodes.

--

First: What is a "changeling?"

“Changeling” is another name for “Shapeshifter.”

[Timeater]

Honestly td I can see we're going to be like two nerds butting heads endlessly when it comes to debating trek lore. I've enjoyed our little back-and-forth, really. We just have different opinions and lets leave at that for now. Its a big improvement from not posting before.

Farside has yet to post, and Mana and Nudude have only posted a few one-liners. Starting to piss me off. Start playing :X

[ZONEACE]

this argument is pointless and distracting.

could we maybe focus on something more useful than who was a guest star and who was a recurring character.

[td]

I'm content with leaving that discussion aside for the moment, yes. Apart from that, I'm waiting for CallMeLiam.

[Timeater]

*pokes liam with a stick*

[sekinj]

*calls laim lurker*

[CallMeLiam]

QFT. When viewed in context, Liam is throwing around a lot of suspicion, especially to devalue minor character claims (eg the Rom line). In fact we've just lost a townie based on what many saw as a inadequate character claim (the behaviour didn't help either). The massclaim comment didn't help much either. Liam mentioned being busy, but pressuring him seems more useful than the recently prodded td.

vote: Liam

Whu? I think what I was doing was trying to ascribe no value whatsoever to any character claims, never mind just minor ones. We saw with the Jebus kill how lynching someone because you don't like their claim is worthless. I will say again that placing any weight at all on character claims is a deeply flawed way to play as town in a game with it likely that his claim is the kind he hopes will keep him 100% safe.

Here he is, trying to claim that Martok and Worf might not be town aligned, which is quite preposterous. And if he was a fan of the show, which he claimed, he would know that. Very scummy.

No. CallMeLiam is claiming that

a Klingon

might not be town-aligned. And yes, there are Klingons on the show that would fit there perfectly.

Both wrong. I was claiming that any character claim could very well be faked in a game with shapeshifters. Bashir and Martok were both replaced by duplicates during the show and I have no trouble believing the mod would slip in a Sisko, Kira or even a Kassidy shapeshifter as a scum role because I've seen the exact thing happen before in a DS9 theme game. Any character could be aligned with the scum as far as I can see. Scum hunt on play, not on characters.

Also nice work reading my signature guys. -_-

[CallMeLiam]

Oh, I'm getting this out of the way now: I'm Quark.

[sekinj]

Oh, I'm getting this out of the way now: I'm Quark.

since you hadn't posted in forever, your sig was several pages back.

[ChannelDelibird]

Mana_Ku has requested replacement. I'll start looking.

[Timeater]

Whu? I think what I was doing was trying to ascribe no value whatsoever to any character claims, never mind just minor ones. We saw with the Jebus kill how lynching someone because you don't like their claim is worthless. I will say again that placing any weight at all on character claims is a deeply flawed way to play as town in a game with it likely that his claim is the kind he hopes will keep him 100% safe.

By that statement, we should vote for you, because you've had the scummiest play. We actually learned alot from the Jebus lynch. For me, it indicated that there will probably be a few minor roles seeded into the town to help the scum a little. And that since two minor roles have already been claimed, it will be hard for scum to claim a minor role in the future. And the thought of a shapeshifter impersonating a major player, thats a little far-fetched.

Bashir and Martok were both replaced by duplicates during the show and I have no trouble believing the mod would slip in a Sisko, Kira or even a Kassidy shapeshifter as a scum role because I've seen the exact thing happen before in a DS9 theme game

Care to provide a url?

Anyhoo, if Liam is lying, and you're the real Quark, now is the time to step forward.

[frelaras]

Any character could be aligned with the scum as far as I can see. Scum hunt on play, not on characters.

Hmm, interesting advice coming from your position. And then you bother to claim Quark. But I thought character hunting was pointless? So we shouldn't be satisfied with your claim right, because Quark could easily be scum on his own, never mind impersonated?

(Yes yes, it lets us do a basic check for bad claims I realize that, but that's not the point Liam was making).

[Timeater]

Quark couldn't be scum.