Mini 659: The Neighborhood- Game over on Day 6

[Tommy]

Here's the promised follow-up post, which is to be considered much less important than 273 above. If you're reading this, crywolf, reply to the other one first! Quick!

I gather that you're willing to lynch any of three people, fhqwhgads, and that two of these alternatives are policy lynches, on people who you think are likely to be town. What gives?

Darox, you've been asking again for a summary of your crimes. I don't think quite as much ink has been spilt on any other topic, but it's virtual ink and it doesn't cost anything, so - on the off-chance that you'll listen to me this time - here I go again:

I fail to see how being asked about why I didn't unvote ASAP when Lowell was at L-1... is bad, when the reason I was voting was to pressure, not to reach a lynch.

that level of pressure carries the risk of a hammer, and Darox has said explicitly that he didn't want a hammer.

It may be that you thought there was no such risk, for reasons that you haven't yet disclosed. Your recent unvote, on the other hand, shows that by that point you

did

think there was a risk, which is why iamausername has asked you this question:

What made you decide that Lowell suddenly was in danger of being hammered, Darox?

You haven't answered that yet.

[fhqwhgads]

...on people who you think are likely to be town. What gives?

That's just the thing. I don't think they are likely to be town. If we bring meta and 'newbieness' into the equation, then at best, I don't know what they are? In isolation of this game, they both have been doing pretty scummy things (if you want specifics, just look at the thread, I'm certainly not the only one to think so).

My argument is that they can't expect me to go and read their respective gaming histories to decide if their scummy actions really are scummy, or not. And again I ask, how does that help town anyway? If you're going to act like a loose cannon, your 1. not helping town, and 2. probably not going to be NK'd by mafia either. Why point 2? Because your helping mafia by confusing the hell out of everyboby.

----------------
Now playing: Infected Mushroom - Psycho
via FoxyTunes

[gorckat]

Vote Count

Lowell (5):

Rashiminos, Oman, TonyMontana, fhqwhgads, crywolf

Darox (2):

iamausername,Ythill

crywolf:

bionic

Rashiminos:

Lowell

Not voting (3):

Elias, Darox, Tommy

[Ythill]

@Darox: I've already posted a decent summary of the case against you...

I totally agree with the questions posed to Darox and I don’t like how his replies have gone. He’s dodged the basic gist of the accusation: voting a player whom you find neutral yet disruptive is not pro-town play, and it suggests overall suspicions that are too weak for a townie to hold honestly. It sounds like scum leaving room, later, to escape culpability for a lynch or to reverse positions if the wagon goes sour. Saying “misrep” and getting frustrated does not change these things.

Furthermore, when asked to defend his vote, Darox tried in vain and eventually detracted it quietly. And there have been a few other minor points.

I can go into the minor points if you'd like, but I'd be satisfied, for now, if you addressed what's explicit above.

Also, your meta suggests that you are normally more forthright and direct with your defenses. What's different in this game?

Still waiting on wolf...

[Ythill]

On another topic...

I understand Fhq's point about Lowell. Even though I think hanging him would be a 3 in 4 chance of a mislynch at this point, I'd still hammer him at deadline to avoid no lynch. For information if nothing else.

However, it sounds to me like Fhq is

pushing

that lynch while saying it is a last resort, which is suspicious.

IME, the best way to deal with the VI is with town power (investigate or vig) before LYLO.

[Elias_the_thief]

still here, rereading. post later today.

[Elias_the_thief]

Ok, things I noted in the past couple pages (in convenient block o' text format!):

A lot of talk, not a lot of content. Reminded me of McCains speech last night. Iamausernames push on Darox reads as barely veiled distraction to me. Like hardcore detraction from Lowell wagon. Tommy a little bit too maybe. Just sayin'. I dont think the Darox case is strong enough for me to vote at deadline, though there are some points to consider tomorrow. Oman so far has seemed fairly strong in his posts and reads protown to me. The policy lynch on lowell is a dumb suggestion, but lynching lowell as a last resort today due to his alignment info potential is a fairly good suggestion. Assuming no better lynch candidate comes up prior to deadline. Crywolf doesnt read as scum to me, but as noob town who is trying a bit to please town. I did this in my first town game and dont find it that scummy. Something to look at later in the game but not a good day 1 lynch. Um, a comment on the "scum driven" comment and my unvote on the wagon: I really was pretty independant of the rest of that wagon if you examine vote reasons. My jump off was not because I recognized that the wagon was scum driven, but rather because Lowell got around to addressing my points, and I found his response satisfactory. Um...thats really unclear, so I'll sum up my points (and various other reads not included).

Protown:

Ythill, Oman

NQP*:

Iamausername, Rashiminos, Tommy,

Undecided:

Bionicchop2

Under Mah Radar**:

TonyMontana, fhqwhgads

Slightly Scummy:

Crywolf, Lowell, Darox

At deadline I will most likely vote lowell, as he provides the most information for us about other peoples alignments. For instance, if lowell is scum, his 100% belief of Iamausernames claim indicates to me that user is scum. There are some other decent connections I've drawn as well, which I will save til tomorrow.

*Neutral w/ quality posts
** By under mah radar, I mean I will be reviewing them better on day 2

[iamausername]

Perhaps you ought to read a little more carefully. My reason for voting Lowell in post 131 references a FoS in post 70.

Yeah, when I did that vote analysis, I just skimmed through the thread looking for bold text, so I guess it's not surprising that I missed some fairly pertinent stuff along the way. I retract my 'parroting' comments.

Seems a bit of a stretch here. On the one hand you're assuming that townies can make themselves look scummy with the suggestion that hypothetical Daroxscum would take advantage of such townies. If this is the case, then we have this idea of townies who do "scummy" things, and probably do so unintentionally. In this case, how can we rule out hypothetical Daroxtown making himself look "scummy?" How can we get past this circular logic going on here?

Well, answering this question is pretty much the key to winning the game as town, so I hope you'll forgive me if I don't have a solid answer. It seems like you're still completely missing the point of why I found Darox's wording scummy, because these questions are very tangential to the original point, but I don't know how else I can explain it. Does anyone else see where I was coming from on that?

fhqwhgads' #269 concerns me; he's endorsing every one of the major wagons to have appeared so far today. Rather bet-hedging, I think.

Can someone try to summarize the case against me?

Besides the inconsistency in your attitude to unvoting, there's the whole "making themselves look scummy" thing that I've been discussing with Rash which I note that you've failed entirely to comment on, and more importantly, there's your initial Lowell vote, which was extremely poorly reasoned and bandwagonning as hell, and the whole reason I became suspicious of you in the first place.

My jump off was not because I recognized that the wagon was scum driven, but rather because Lowell got around to addressing my points, and I found his response satisfactory.

Well, that's a wildly different explanation than you gave at the time:

##unvote

this wagon went way to fast for my liking, and lowell hasnt even got around to answering my initial questions. Lets just slow it down a bit, and look more carefully at everyone voting lowell.

What's going on there, Elias?

[bionicchop2]

Iamausernames push on Darox reads as barely veiled distraction to me. Like hardcore detraction from Lowell wagon. Tommy a little bit too maybe. Just sayin'. I dont think the Darox case is strong enough for me to vote at deadline, though there are some points to consider tomorrow.

The deadline is a week away, so why are you pushing off looking at Darox until day 2? If you state Iamuser is using Darox to distract from the Lowell wagon you would need to assume Iamuser knows he alignment of Lowell, but you list Iamuser as neutral with quality posts in the latter part of your post. 'Barely veiled distraction' does not translate to quality posts, so I think you are slightly contradicting yourself and need to clarify your opinion on iamusername.

Oman so far has seemed fairly strong in his posts and reads protown to me. The policy lynch on lowell is a dumb suggestion, but lynching lowell as a last resort today due to his alignment info potential is a fairly good suggestion. Assuming no better lynch candidate comes up prior to deadline.

Oman is always strong / assertive in his posts FYI. In the only other game I played with him, he was a mafia spy and pegged me as cop. After my NK, he took control of the game (claiming a tracking role) and lead mafia to victory. Oman is a solid player and writing him off as protown after so few posts is a huge mistake IMO. You will set yourself up to be lead around whatever direction he wants if he is scum.

Crywolf doesnt read as scum to me, but as noob town who is trying a bit to please town. I did this in my first town game and dont find it that scummy.

Something to look at later in the game but not a good day 1 lynch. [/quote]

Obviously I disagree since my vote is on crywolf and has been most of the day. This is not a newbie game, so I don't see any player as a newbie. If I get chance, I will try to meta her.

At deadline I will most likely vote lowell, as he provides the most information for us about other peoples alignments. For instance, if lowell is scum, his 100% belief of Iamausernames claim indicates to me that user is scum. There are some other decent connections I've drawn as well, which I will save til tomorrow.

I don't like this ending to your post. I do agree Lowell's lynch will provide information, but in the end, any lynch does that as long as there was a full day of discussion.

- assumption that iamuser is scum if Lowell is scum is off. Scum buddy up to townies. Scum would know iamuser is telling the truth about being miller - if in fact he is.

- I always view setting up future lynches as scummy.
- you are saving your 'other decent connections' until tomorrow. This is the 2nd time in this post you have made the assumption you live to see the next day. If you have thoughts / analysis / conclusions you have made, the best time to post them is always now. If you have actually figured some stuff out, waiting only runs the risk of you dying without that information coming out.

[Elias_the_thief]

My jump off was not because I recognized that the wagon was scum driven, but rather because Lowell got around to addressing my points, and I found his response satisfactory.

Well, that's a wildly different explanation than you gave at the time:

##unvote

this wagon went way to fast for my liking, and lowell hasnt even got around to answering my initial questions. Lets just slow it down a bit, and look more carefully at everyone voting lowell.

What's going on there, Elias?

Ok, that just shows I'm not into this game enough. Post 161 is the one in which I accept Lowells responses, for some reason I thought this was the one I unvoted in. But my unvote was really for the purpose of avoiding a mislynch, so I guess your original explanation of my unvote was near-correct.

Iamausernames push on Darox reads as barely veiled distraction to me. Like hardcore detraction from Lowell wagon. Tommy a little bit too maybe. Just sayin'. I dont think the Darox case is strong enough for me to vote at deadline, though there are some points to consider tomorrow.

The deadline is a week away, so why are you pushing off looking at Darox until day 2? If you state Iamuser is using Darox to distract from the Lowell wagon you would need to assume Iamuser knows he alignment of Lowell, but you list Iamuser as neutral with quality posts in the latter part of your post. 'Barely veiled distraction' does not translate to quality posts, so I think you are slightly contradicting yourself and need to clarify your opinion on iamusername.

When I talk about 'Barely veiled distraction' I am talking about a vibe I got off the posts. It is by no means a solid point. Besides this point, I have no reason to suspect Iamausername, and I think many of his other posts have quality content and scumhunting. In light of his quality contribution to the game, I can consider him neutral.

I want to look at Darox tomorrow because I find Lowell scummier and a better lynch. The points against Darox are far from lynchworthy.

Oman so far has seemed fairly strong in his posts and reads protown to me. The policy lynch on lowell is a dumb suggestion, but lynching lowell as a last resort today due to his alignment info potential is a fairly good suggestion. Assuming no better lynch candidate comes up prior to deadline.

Oman is always strong / assertive in his posts FYI. In the only other game I played with him, he was a mafia spy and pegged me as cop. After my NK, he took control of the game (claiming a tracking role) and lead mafia to victory. Oman is a solid player and writing him off as protown after so few posts is a huge mistake IMO. You will set yourself up to be lead around whatever direction he wants if he is scum.

I never wrote him off as Protown. Thats just my read on him thus far. Do you think I stop analzing a players posts just because theyre on my protown list? My reads can change but currently he appears protown.

Crywolf doesnt read as scum to me, but as noob town who is trying a bit to please town. I did this in my first town game and dont find it that scummy.

Something to look at later in the game but not a good day 1 lynch.

Obviously I disagree since my vote is on crywolf and has been most of the day. This is not a newbie game, so I don't see any player as a newbie. If I get chance, I will try to meta her.

Newbies get into minis all the time. Newbie games arent required, and I think this is her first game ever.

At deadline I will most likely vote lowell, as he provides the most information for us about other peoples alignments. For instance, if lowell is scum, his 100% belief of Iamausernames claim indicates to me that user is scum. There are some other decent connections I've drawn as well, which I will save til tomorrow.

I don't like this ending to your post. I do agree Lowell's lynch will provide information, but in the end, any lynch does that as long as there was a full day of discussion.

Lowells provides more in my opinion than any other player.

- assumption that iamuser is scum if Lowell is scum is off. Scum buddy up to townies. Scum would know iamuser is telling the truth about being miller - if in fact he is.

This is true. This is just the side of the WIFOM that I've fallen on.

- I always view setting up future lynches as scummy.

I care.

- you are saving your 'other decent connections' until tomorrow. This is the 2nd time in this post you have made the assumption you live to see the next day. If you have thoughts / analysis / conclusions you have made, the best time to post them is always now. If you have actually figured some stuff out, waiting only runs the risk of you dying without that information coming out.

I doubt I will die tonight, as I'm not really perceived as the most protown player, just motr. The other connections I have in mind are relatively small, but will become more condemning if allowed to grow without being revealed prematurely, which is why I dont want to get into specifics.

[bionicchop2]

Newbies get into minis all the time. Newbie games arent required, and I think this is her first game ever.

My point is more if someone is going to jump in and skip over newbie games, then I am not going to give any kind of newbie passes. I don't fault anybody who does, but I think it is an easy card to play for a new player who wants to get away with pushing scummy agendas.

The way I see it (just limiting to Lowell vs. crywolf for argument sake):

crywolf - acting scummy (no posts have sturck me as protown) without precedent for doing such as town

Lowell - acting scummy with some precedent of doing such as town.

[Elias_the_thief]

Newbies get into minis all the time. Newbie games arent required, and I think this is her first game ever.

My point is more if someone is going to jump in and skip over newbie games, then I am not going to give any kind of newbie passes. I don't fault anybody who does, but I think it is an easy card to play for a new player who wants to get away with pushing scummy agendas.

The way I see it (just limiting to Lowell vs. crywolf for argument sake):

crywolf - acting scummy (no posts have sturck me as protown) without precedent for doing such as town

Lowell - acting scummy with some precedent of doing such as town.

Thats fair enough. I dont think this is an example of "taking advantage", however.

[Darox]

It may be that you thought there was no such risk, for reasons that you haven't yet disclosed. Your recent unvote, on the other hand, shows that by that point you

did

think there was a risk, which is why iamausername has asked you this question:

What made you decide that Lowell suddenly was in danger of being hammered, Darox?

You haven't answered that yet.

My my, how about this?

EBWOP: Lowell has refused to claim.

I support a hammering.

Or maybe this?

There's still a week before the deadline, so if people need to discuss this further, that's fine by me.

But personally, I agree. Lowell remains the scummiest player, and I'd like to see him swing.

Crazy of me to think that there might be a risk of an imminent hammer, right?

@Darox: I've already posted a decent summary of the case against you...

I totally agree with the questions posed to Darox and I don’t like how his replies have gone. He’s dodged the basic gist of the accusation: voting a player whom you find neutral yet disruptive is not pro-town play, and it suggests overall suspicions that are too weak for a townie to hold honestly. It sounds like scum leaving room, later, to escape culpability for a lynch or to reverse positions if the wagon goes sour. Saying “misrep” and getting frustrated does not change these things.

Furthermore, when asked to defend his vote, Darox tried in vain and eventually detracted it quietly. And there have been a few other minor points.

I can go into the minor points if you'd like, but I'd be satisfied, for now, if you addressed what's explicit above.

Also, your meta suggests that you are normally more forthright and direct with your defenses. What's different in this game?

Your above quote only holds weight if you think I was voting to achieve a lynch. The entire point of the vote was to see if Lowell would do anything to solidify my opinion on him.

I haven't 'tried in vain', I have pointed out that all you had against my vote was that 'leaving someone you don't find 100% scummy at L-1 is a moral and social injustice'. The only reason I unvoted was the calls for an immediate hammer that I showed above.

Your meta comment amuses me. I am acting different from the 6 other games I am in? The difference in this game is mostly that I don't have any solid leads so far.

Can someone try to summarize the case against me?

Besides the inconsistency in your attitude to unvoting, there's the whole "making themselves look scummy" thing that I've been discussing with Rash which I note that you've failed entirely to comment on, and more importantly, there's your initial Lowell vote, which was extremely poorly reasoned and bandwagonning as hell, and the whole reason I became suspicious of you in the first place.

Please point out the inconsistency, I'm stupid and obviously thought my votes were somehow justified.

I noticed Rash pretty much destroyed your 'making themselves look scummy' argument without needing my help, which wasn't hard considering the logical fallacies in it.

Seems a bit of a stretch here. On the one hand you're assuming that townies can make themselves look scummy with the suggestion that hypothetical Daroxscum would take advantage of such townies. If this is the case, then we have this idea of townies who do "scummy" things, and probably do so unintentionally. In this case, how can we rule out hypothetical Daroxtown making himself look "scummy?" How can we get past this circular logic going on here?

[Rashiminos]

Overall I'm liking the general amount of :goodposting: that's going on, and only have one small addition before I start going over my notes again and piecing some things together.

It seems like you're still completely missing the point of why I found Darox's wording scummy, because these questions are very tangential to the original point, but I don't know how else I can explain it.

Let me help you by giving you somewhere to start... Why can't a town-aligned player say something equivalent to "that player is making himself/herself look scummy" and have it mean "acting scummy?"

[Ythill]

Your above quote only holds weight if you think I was voting to achieve a lynch.

I don't buy the pressure-only defense. It's too easy for scum to fall back on. Pressure votes lynch people as easily as non-pressure votes, and you kept yours on into lynching territory. Nor did you accompany it with questions.

Nor does the pressure defense address your lack of more realistic suspicions.

I have pointed out that all you had against my vote was that 'leaving someone you don't find 100% scummy at L-1 is a moral and social injustice'.

Absolute strawman. There's nothing moral or social about it. What it means is that you were willing to let a quick hammer fall onto someone you were explicitly reading @ MotR. Which demonstrates that you don't mind hanging a townie. Which suggests that you are not town-aligned.

[Darox]

The moral and social part is making fun of you guys for calling leaving someone at L-1 wrong, for no other reason than 'it just is'.

Ythill, if you may, please tell me what your immediate reaction to someone quick hammering someone who hasn't done anything majorly scummy? Would you say 'Its the fault of those damn people who didn't unvote when he reached L-1', or would you start seriously questioning why someone dropped an untimely hammer? I would be fine letting a quick hammer fall on someone I didn't have an alignment read on but thought was anti town. It means suddenly there is one less anti town player and there is a very suspect person who somehow thought dropping a hammer early and without real merit was a good idea.

But really, the point of this is moot because Tony or whomever unvoted him before I had the chance to even contemplate not unvoting him.

[Oman]

Post. Monday is mafia day for me.

[Ythill]

Would you say 'Its the fault of those damn people who didn't unvote when he reached L-1', or would you start seriously questioning why someone dropped an untimely hammer?

I'd probably do both, depending on the circumstances. You and I both know that town can quick hammer. IME, they do it more often than scum.

So here we have you saying that lynching an unknown is okay, because you can follow it up with suspicion on another unknown. Nice defense.

But really, the point of this is moot because Tony or whomever unvoted him before I had the chance to even contemplate not unvoting him.

This

did

seem like a good defense, so I looked it up. Tony unvoted in #190. You were the person who posted #189, without unvoting.

And where the hell is wolf...

[Darox]

I did briefly consider it, but I decided to wait it out a bit, but Tony rendered the point moot by doing it himself.

Also, the entire point is that lynching an unknown this early is a

bad thing

, which is why anyone that hammers would be suspect.

[iamausername]

Let me help you by giving you somewhere to start... Why can't a town-aligned player say something equivalent to "that player is making himself/herself look scummy" and have it mean "acting scummy?"

Because "making themselves look scummy" implies the knowledge that said player is not

actually

scum, they're just making themself look like it.

I noticed Rash pretty much destroyed your 'making themselves look scummy' argument without needing my help, which wasn't hard considering the logical fallacies in it.

Seems a bit of a stretch here. On the one hand you're assuming that townies can make themselves look scummy with the suggestion that hypothetical Daroxscum would take advantage of such townies. If this is the case, then we have this idea of townies who do "scummy" things, and probably do so unintentionally. In this case, how can we rule out hypothetical Daroxtown making himself look "scummy?" How can we get past this circular logic going on here?

I can't see how this could possibly destroy any argument, since what Rash is basically saying here is "but Darox might be town!"

But really, the point of this is moot because Tony or whomever unvoted him before I had the chance to even contemplate not unvoting him.

I did briefly consider it, but I decided to wait it out a bit, but Tony rendered the point moot by doing it himself.

So, uh, is 'considering' a different thing to 'contemplating'?

My my, how about this?

EBWOP: Lowell has refused to claim.

I support a hammering.

Or maybe this?

There's still a week before the deadline, so if people need to discuss this further, that's fine by me.

But personally, I agree. Lowell remains the scummiest player, and I'd like to see him swing.

Crazy of me to think that there might be a risk of an imminent hammer, right?

Ok, now how about this:

L-1

Claim or die Lowell

.

That one didn't appear to give you any concern that a Lowell lynch was imminent. There's that inconsistency I mentioned before.

---

Elias is worrying me right now. Lynching someone "for information" is a horrible reason, and it's a great way for scum to get themselves on a mislynch while denying responsibility for it. "I was only doing it for the information!"

He says he'll only do this "as a last resort, assuming no better lynch candidate comes up prior to deadline", but he doesn't appear to be making any particular effort to

find

a better lynch candidate, which looks to me like he's happy to ride it out to deadline and then go ahead with lynching Lowell. 'For the information', of course.

[gorckat]

Vote Count

Lowell (5):

Rashiminos, Oman, TonyMontana, fhqwhgads, crywolf

Darox (2):

iamausername,Ythill

crywolf:

bionic

Rashiminos:

Lowell

Not voting (3):

Elias, Darox, Tommy

**Lowell has been prodded for the second time**

[Darox]

Claim or die is not the same as 'He hasn't claimed yet, kill him.'

What rash is saying is your argument doesn't prove anything at all, except that I might have an alignment.

I was contemplating my actions after I had decided not to unvote and whether it was a good pick, but then tony decided for me.

[bionicchop2]

Claim or die is not the same as 'He hasn't claimed yet, kill him.'

?????????

[iamausername]

Claim or die is not the same as 'He hasn't claimed yet, kill him.'

I can possibly see a very slight semantic difference there. I can't see how that difference could mean the difference between you unvoting and not unvoting with your stated position. If you weren't ready to see Lowell lynched, why didn't you offer any resistance to Oman's "claim or die" sentiment?

I was contemplating my actions after I had decided not to unvote and whether it was a good pick, but then tony decided for me.

So you admit that this statement:

But really, the point of this is moot because Tony or whomever unvoted him before I had the chance to even contemplate not unvoting him.

was, in fact, a lie?

[Tommy]

This is difficult. Darox is looking increasingly suspicious, but Lowell is worse. At the moment, crywolf seems worse still to me, and I desperately need her to come back and answer my questions before the deadline. I wish I had more time to post, but I have lots of stuff to do.