PookyTheMagicalBear v Flavor Leaf (Game Over)

[Polar Bear Express]

Seriously? Deb has barely been around all game and you don't think it was coordinated when they post within 10 minutes of each other during the holidays in the middle of the night?

Seriously, this is a bad take but if you like. I can link a game for you where RadiantCowbells wrongly scumread town!Gamma after scum!Formerfish immediately self-hammered minutes later. If anything it’s a very clear anti-associative.

[Solstice]

People still giving Noraa a pass when a mason with the most experience with her is calling her scum is mind numbin please explain scum Bell's reaction to me calling her scum if Noraa is town

[I don't really think it's more likely for scum to hard WK their partner than not, tbh I'd find it less likely and instead more likely a TMI townread on town]

[Not too much of a point in debating this atm though since I'm at least leaning Spiffeh/Polarbear with chance of Spiffeh/Ircher]

Seriously? Deb has barely been around all game and you don't think it was coordinated when they post within 10 minutes of each other during the holidays in the middle of the night?

Seriously, this is a bad take but if you like. I can link a game for you where RadiantCowbells wrongly scumread town!Gamma after scum!Formerfish immediately self-hammered minutes later. If anything it’s a very clear anti-associative.

[I think it should be probably be disregarded, but I don't really see how it boosts your town equity. I can totally see FL saying "Make it obvious as shit so you can argue it's too obvious" or i can see it just being Dr Easy taking his own initiative with that reasoning as well.]

~Morning

[Polar Bear Express]

[to be fair, I had a lot of shit going on during Royalty including finals, here I'm on winter break. now im not going to argue that i'm similar, but im curious for your take on what makes me seem different about me here]

[You mentioned that i misrepped you in Royalty and not here, but i guess i don't really get how that is an argument for me being town. Especially considering all I remember doing to you in Royalty was just hard townreading and thats it.]

~Morning

No that definitely isn’t true, you totally misrepped me wrt to TGP. You wrongly shaded me by falsely suggesting I was pushing him when scum knew I was trying to launch Dunn > TGP, so I really don’t understand why you’re disagreeing with me about this. That made me think something was really off about you in that game.

[Def unintentional then, as i had no plans of ever shading you that game. Unless that occured maybe really early D1 and I hadn't decided yet or something. I wrote you and I believe 1 other player as never eliminateable.]

[So needless to say -- that's not going to help you with my alignment. i suppose i do find it believable that you'd use that as reasoning for a TR, though. Is that the only one?]

[pedit: nite Ircher]

~Morning

Well I suppose it wouldn’t be smart to totally rule out the possibility of you pocketing us, if so great job in that case. But I just think like Dunn, you’re playing differently here.

Well for one thing, you were MIA for a lot of that game but perhaps that’s just NAI?

[Polar Bear Express]

People still giving Noraa a pass when a mason with the most experience with her is calling her scum is mind numbin please explain scum Bell's reaction to me calling her scum if Noraa is town

[I don't really think it's more likely for scum to hard WK their partner than not, tbh I'd find it less likely and instead more likely a TMI townread on town]

[Not too much of a point in debating this atm though since I'm at least leaning Spiffeh/Polarbear with chance of Spiffeh/Ircher]

Seriously? Deb has barely been around all game and you don't think it was coordinated when they post within 10 minutes of each other during the holidays in the middle of the night?

Seriously, this is a bad take but if you like. I can link a game for you where RadiantCowbells wrongly scumread town!Gamma after scum!Formerfish immediately self-hammered minutes later. If anything it’s a very clear anti-associative.

[I think it should be probably be disregarded, but I don't really see how it boosts your town equity. I can totally see FL saying "Make it obvious as shit so you can argue it's too obvious" or i can see it just being Dr Easy taking his own initiative with that reasoning as well.]

~Morning

Wow seriously? How familiar are you with FL’s scum games? I can link those games as well. It’s extremely obvious to me that it’s a anti-associative no matter how you’re looking at it but you pursuing this when you just got through saying it makes no sense is not making a whole lot of sense to me.

[Solstice]

Well I suppose it wouldn’t be smart to totally rule out the possibility of you pocketing us, if so great job in that case. But I just think like Dunn, you’re playing differently here.

Well for one thing, you were MIA for a lot of that game but perhaps that’s just NAI?

[At a certain point in Royalty I knew I was going to die, so it was worthwhile for me to shut the fuck up. That, and the takes I was forced to have (Defend Gypyx, Defend Dunn, Push TGP, Push Hopkirk) were so blatantly against my early play that it would be a comically bad progression as soon as I opened my mouth. so i waited as long as i could to do that.]

[Also, had a lot of exams during that game. So basically yeah you're right it's NAI]

[to tell you the truth, high effort is not towny for me either, anyway -- what's towny about me this game is how easy I find it to make content, which isn't super different from being perceived as high effort, I guess ?? Essentially, I don't care about giving my stances on things over and over again all day long because i know everything i think is by definition coming from a town place so if anyone scumreads it, that is not my bad.]

[whereas when i'm scum i live in constant fear of slipping up somewhere and i usually will shut down my high posting facade at some point]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Wow seriously? How familiar are you with FL’s scum games? I can link those games as well. It’s extremely obvious to me that it’s a anti-associative no matter how you’re looking at it but you pursuing this when you just got through saying it makes no sense is not making a whole lot of sense to me.

[You were there when FL (presumably) had Dr Easy crumb detective comically late so he could CC the other scummate who he also had claim detective, right?]

[He's already done the "No that's too obviously bad" thing once, I don't really see why he wouldnt do it again.]

[You're interpreting this as an inconsistency from me (?) But all im saying is that it's not towny. I disagree with Murder that you're lockscum for it. But I also fail to see how that spews you as town at all, because it definitely doesn't]

~Morning

[Polar Bear Express]

Subject: Mini 2034: DnD uPick (Town Victory!)

You say that but gamma is my second pick for scum based on them agreeing that MC was scummy and saying several times they had to think about it and them not ending up on the wagon til the very end (and after gamma voted scum quickhammered)

[Polar Bear Express]

Wow seriously? How familiar are you with FL’s scum games? I can link those games as well. It’s extremely obvious to me that it’s a anti-associative no matter how you’re looking at it but you pursuing this when you just got through saying it makes no sense is not making a whole lot of sense to me.

[You were there when FL (presumably) had Dr Easy crumb detective comically late so he could CC the other scummate who he also had claim detective, right?]

[He's already done the "No that's too obviously bad" thing once, I don't really see why he wouldnt do it again.]

[You're interpreting this as an inconsistency from me (?) But all im saying is that it's not towny. I disagree with Murder that you're lockscum for it. But I also fail to see how that spews you as town at all, because it definitely doesn't]

~Morning

Fine but I still think it’s really silly for anyone to think a player who is widely considered the 5th best scum player on site does something this ludicrously boneheaded but whatever.

[Solstice]

[I know that Dr Easy would have self-hammered immediately after your vote to "frame" you, for sure. But that in no way townclears you because scum can do it based off that same reasoning.]

[Murder makes a fair enough point that it is a really coincidental scenario. Like the odds of you and Dr Easy being on at the same time in that moment at like 4 am during the holidays probably weren't super high. However Ircher also makes a good point that Dr Easy would be more aware of the game than he let on through active lurking, especially at X-1.]

[So either:]
[Dr Easy got lucky and was online mere minutes after you put him to X-1, so he gets to self hammer. or..]
[You planned it, there was no luck involved, so you're playing it off as too obvious]

[Surely you can tell why I'm not giving towncredit for it? It's just a WIFOM game, you can't say FL would or wouldn't do that cause there's always the argument that he... would or wouldn't do it.]

~Morning

[Polar Bear Express]

Subject: Mini 2034: DnD uPick (Town Victory!)

You say that but gamma is my second pick for scum based on them agreeing that MC was scummy and saying several times they had to think about it and them not ending up on the wagon til the very end (and after gamma voted scum quickhammered)

Did you check out this game yet? @Solstice

[Polar Bear Express]

[I know that Dr Easy would have self-hammered immediately after your vote to "frame" you, for sure. But that in no way townclears you because scum can do it based off that same reasoning.]

[Murder makes a fair enough point that it is a really coincidental scenario. Like the odds of you and Dr Easy being on at the same time in that moment at like 4 am during the holidays probably weren't super high. However Ircher also makes a good point that Dr Easy would be more aware of the game than he let on through active lurking, especially at X-1.]

[So either:]
[Dr Easy got lucky and was online mere minutes after you put him to X-1, so he gets to self hammer. or..]
[You planned it, there was no luck involved, so you're playing it off as too obvious]

[Surely you can tell why I'm not giving towncredit for it? It's just a WIFOM game, you can't say FL would or wouldn't do that cause there's always the argument that he... would or wouldn't do it.]

~Morning

I have read numerous FL games, so yeah I actually can and do say this and if you want to ignore the obvious and we lose, that’s on you then.

[Solstice]

[Something interesting to note if Polarbears are scum, that means both Bell and Spiffeh hard town-locked their partner and in Bell's case, made his play revolve around that read. I think both of them put Polarbears as their strongest TR overall.]

[Spiffeh I already reviewed a bunch yesterday.. i'm just skimming across his ISO at this point. It is almost hard to believe he has defended Bell and DEB and been on pretty much every wrong scumread except maybe BM. So unlucky... unless there isn't luck involved. I am still interested in what he has to say though, there is no player i would count out at this point considering Toog's flip]

I have read numerous FL games, so yeah I actually can and do say this and if you want to ignore the obvious and we lose, that’s on you then.

[The fate of the game is not decided by whether or not I read you correctly, as far as i can tell. i just need one townread correct out of 2 town in 4 players, it seems.]

[in any case though, I would prefer to hear about your reads on other slots rather than this WIFOM defense of your X-1 -- i dont think it will help me]

~Morning

[Polar Bear Express]

[Something interesting to note if Polarbears are scum, that means both Bell and Spiffeh hard town-locked their partner and in Bell's case, made his play revolve around that read. I think both of them put Polarbears as their strongest TR overall.]

[Spiffeh I already reviewed a bunch yesterday.. i'm just skimming across his ISO at this point. It is almost hard to believe he has defended Bell and DEB and been on pretty much every wrong scumread except maybe BM. So unlucky... unless there isn't luck involved. I am still interested in what he has to say though, there is no player i would count out at this point considering Toog's flip]

I have read numerous FL games, so yeah I actually can and do say this and if you want to ignore the obvious and we lose, that’s on you then.

[The fate of the game is not decided by whether or not I read you correctly, as far as i can tell. i just need one townread correct out of 2 town in 4 players, it seems.]

[in any case though, I would prefer to hear about your reads on other slots rather than this WIFOM defense of your X-1 -- i dont think it will help me]

~Morning

Well, we’re in the same boat as you are, so I wish I could be more help here. I know we will probably lose if I can’t convince people and I feel extremely frustrated about that. If I can’t convince people that we’re flipping town then would much prefer to be misfaded today rather than being the reason we wind up losing.

Because to me, it should be beyond obvious that we’re town now but if it isn’t yet, then I have no idea what to tell you. :/

[Polar Bear Express]

I honestly wish I knew who was scum here. I know it’s not us. I don’t think it’s you, probably not Mastina but I think there are likely two deep wolves which is why I’m pretty sure we’re losing if I can’t get through to people. So, if I can’t, I ar least beg you not to make me this guy:


viewtopic.php?f=84&t=83833&user_select%5B%5D=355

I’m legit shocked that what’s beyond obvious to me is just “wifom” to you.

[Solstice]

[I would be shocked if even Noraa thinks you're obvtown for that, to be honest. But that's not what's important to me -- what's important is that you think it is]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Spoiler:

These masons were literally my top three SRs. fml. also pichu

-nornor

I guess mastina? Maybe I'm wrong about Polar Bears?

Or you?

I am really at a loss

Literally every single read I have had has been wrong

Neutral Scum

(31%-59% Confidence; Mixed Read or Diffident Read)

Toogeloo (-32%): They claimed VT in their first post, which has a higher likelihood of coming from town. I'm not really a fan of their stance to the Bell wagon, and I don't like their 3948 and 3951 as the statements made about mastina are strictly untrue/a huge stretch.

Creature (-50%): This slot was a solid null day 1 mainly because I was wary of jumping the gun so to speak. Creature is fairly active in this game, but he is also rather disengaged, and that tends to be scum indicative for him. 2785 looks really bad considering he didn't express any doubt before then. 2794 and 2842 are nonsensical takes that make me think Creature is pushing an agenda here. I think 2917 might be a comment from town!Creature, but at the same time, it's not really a comment that makes sense to me in the context of this game. Overall, the disengagement and bad/nonsensical takes Day 2 are making me lean towards scum here. The fact he was the counterwagon to flipped scum Bell does reduce his scum equity some.

MURDERCAT (-55%): I still kinda think this slot is wandering aimlessly without a sense of direction or purpose. I'm not really a fan of how he approached the Bell wagon especially in posts like 3910 and 4220. Including mastina in his solve in 3905 is rather worrying.

Leaning Scum

(60%-75% Confidence)

​​

Likely Scum

(76%-100% Confidence)

<<Insert mastina lockscumming BM, Creature, Toog here>>

[It feels significant that literally no one had any clue who the scum in our current group is. Like, so scum would have no qualms with staying amongst the crowd of incorrect reads. Is this making me read someone wrong though?]

Solve rn is probably Toogeloo + 1 of {Spiffeh, Dunnstral} + 1 of {Ydrasse, Dr Easy Bake}.

[Oh yeah, Ircher's reads were before the mason's claimed -- after he adjusted, he actually came *sort of* close here.]

[I still think mastina has the towniest appearing wrong reads. it is just really surprising to me if she pulled off all of those cases, especially the BM tunnel D1. It's not like the game she linked, either.]

[Ircher is still believable either way.. I reviewed his posts on Murder and they do make me more sympathetic to the Murdercat read -- but not as much as I felt with mastina. Having Toog/Creature/Murder at the bottom was pretty safe and he doesnt do anything that i think is impossible for scum!him like i feel with mastina.]

[Polarbears is a lot of trouble for me. Early, very hard townread there -- felt good about that one. Noraa is kinda fading out which sucks, but Gloria is still doing the things i always perceived as a towntell for her. I suppose this is the only place i haven't really dove into for interactions, but Spiffeh/Bell's interactions with them are kinda surprising if all are scum]

[Spiffeh has been getting really really unlucky with his reads, and there are some bits that feel town like the way he reacted to the Bell vs. DEB claims. There isn't much more for me to really townread him off of though.]

[overall i'm only confident enough to say Mastina is my strongest town. that also lines up with how the mod probably drafted her for town after FL's first or second pick, which is something i forgot to mention that i'd thought of up til now. I could very well see it being Spiffeh/Ircher just cause i am easily swayed by Polarbears AtE and i really did believe in that townread. However, at this point in the game, dunno if that really cuts it anymore]

[I think out of the remaining pool of Spiffeh/Ircher/Polarbears, i could come up with the best reasons to townread Polarbears overall. Ill test though]

Spoiler: Spiffeh

1. Strange reading style where he gets every single conceivable read wrong, just about.
2. Reaction to DEB vs. Bell's claims where he mixed up the roles seemed genuine (Pichu agrees with me on this).
3. You could argue his blatant lack of reasoning for reads (such as Ydrasse/Dunn?/Toog) coupled with his survivalism ("No please don't shoot me ms. vig") is too scummy to be scum.

Spoiler: Ircher

1. I generally agree with his takes. For instance, at the moment, Ircher is advocating for mastina/Solstice being the strongest town -- and it feels to me that these are the town players. If Ircher is scum, he's going to have to flip flop on i believe both of these
2. Bussed Bell exceptionally early, granted he could not have known it'd kill Bell at the time.
3. Murdercat progression does not come out of nowhere like I thought it did (does this count as a reason for a townread or just as a reason to dissuade why i thought he was scummy?)
4. In general i think scum!Ircher is playing a hell of a game although it's hard to quantify with solid reasons why

Spoiler: Polarbears

1. Noraa seemingly out of scumrange early on
2. Literally every scum has been whiteknighting this slot for some reason. Honestly they're even better at towncasing them than i am
3. I think in general if i had to call out one of these three slot for being most likely outside of their scum range, it'd be this one -- so far I am more willing to believe Ircher and Spiffeh pull off the things ive found towny about them as scum
4. Gloria doing the thing where she's adamant how obvtown she is and also completely missing why we find her scummy
5. Review of Murdercatto's original case makes me feel like it's not valid (this is cheating i know)
6. Tbh, Gloria OMGUSing Ydrasse for very little lines up with what I have observed in the past -- additionally, pretty sure scum knew Ydrasse was vig for most of that sequence, and Gloria would have heard about that

[Tbh even though I think I was wrong for suspecting Ircher for his murdercat read, that doesn't make him town by default. He is still my #1 deepwolf and I think if I went with my heart right now I'd say it's Spiffeh/Ircher. I would kill Spiffeh then Ircher -- and if at any point I'm wrong and there's a green flip, then I'd accept I'm probably wrong and eliminate Polarbears. that is my thinking for tonight]

~Morning

[mastina]

Okay, am back, sorry for leaving and the abrupt rushed nature of my last post. (Small confession: I was about 40% of the way through it when I was supposed to leave for that other obligation, so I rushed through the remaining 60%.) To more eloquently and elaborately state things:

Why did DEB self-hammer there?

If scum bought that Ydrasse couldn't shoot last night (since I believe she claimed gated), then they were trying to keep it on evens, perhaps?

The scum, fairly obviously, bought that Ydrassed was gated in some fashion, that or their roleblocker (which, per Ydrasse having failed to kill Toogeloo N3, we know they have) was gated and couldn't block her last night.

So they assumed that Toogeloo would be left alive.

DEB self-hammering is better than Toogeloo hammering him. In the scum's world, Toogeloo hammering = not only does the game go onto odds (not much of an issue since we're guaranteed a conftown in mylo/lylo), but also a mislynch candidate is removed from the pool. They would want to prevent that.

I do feel that Solstice is, mechanically, conftown--if the town lacked a way to know about the scum supersaint, it'd be ridiculously easy to arrange for a conftown or widely-townread player to hammer. As I said before, how disastrous for the town is it if a town mason hammers the scum supersaint? Solstice if scum was warning the town about what amounts to the scum's greatest trump card. Furthermore, that scumsides the setup. A surprise supersaint with the town having no warning, when the town's only power beyond the three masons is a (somewhat gated) doc, a vig, and a weird investigative (which, functionally, acts a lot like a cop)?
When the scum also have a roleblocker? And are implied, loosely, to have another role, presumably investigative? (Via the scum being multitasking being a town role information.) And they can multitask?

That's an incredibly oppressive setup for the town since if their core power roles (vig/cop) die/are identified/blocked early/often, the town's basically at the mercy of the scum, and the town is actually punished for playing well. If the town eliminates a scum, normally that's good for them--but having the scum be a supersaint punishes the town for eliminating that scum, since scum know better than to hammer that scum player, leaving town at its mercy.

But having a town supersaint enabler warns the town of the scum supersaint, allowing for counterplay. And it can add a counterbalance in punishing the scum for doing well--if Supersaint is eliminated beit during the day or night, that disables their massive trump card. Even without that, the ability to claim it is enough to give the town some edge.

Overall I think the flip does clear Solstice here. Because I don't see the game as balanced with Solstice as scum; I DO see it as balanced with Solstice as town.

[mastina]

no voting

Unvote: Spiffeh

, per the mason's request.
But,
HURT: Spiffeh
To make it abundantly clear.
HURT WITH A BLADE: Polar Bear Express.

[mastina]

Solstice is probably clear from the supersaint flip.

We aren't believing this by the way

Okay but with both Ircher and I saying it, even if one of {Ircher, mastina} was scum (which I don't think is the case), one of us is town, both of us are experienced setup reviewers, and both of us are saying the same thing, that mechanically and setup-wise, Solstice makes more sense as town in this game.

We have almost the full picture of the setup--all of the town roles, and most of the scum roles. (We know there's a scum roleblocker, albeit not knowing the nature of the scum roleblocker like what powers it has. We know scum are multitasking, implying that the scum's roles if they are gated at all are fairly lightly so, and/or that there's more than one active scum power in the game, with the fairly real chance of a scum investigative. While there's some speculation involved in the exact power of the scumteam, the

general

power level of the scum is known.)

And both of us are saying that, given the info we have, Solstice is mechanically highly likely town.

If {Ircher, mastina} were both scum lying, Solstice would be town;
If one of {Ircher, mastina} were scum, the other would be town, genuinely thinking that;
If both of {Ircher, mastina} are town (as I believe), they both genuinely think that.

Is it possible that we're both wrong (or that I'm wrong and Ircher is scum who is lying)?
Sure is, games can be scumsided.

But in the event of this game being actually balanced, I would say Solstice is town. (And that if Solstice were scum, the game would be scumsided regardless of what the mods thought when designing the setup.)

[mastina]

2 scum in this list:
mastina, Spiffeh, Ircher, Solstice, Polar Bear Express

Each of you give one top town and one top scum within the list

Top town: Solstice (see also, mechanically should be conftown if this game is balanced);
Top scum: Spiffeh (mostly by poe in that there's 2/3 scum in Spiffeh/Ircher/PBE; Ircher's the towniest of the three by far, Spiffeh is the least-townie of them by far).

[mastina]

@mastina: Can you link that recent scum game where you efforted once more?

Sure, it's this one here.

For the record: it might help you to iso MathBlade that game (and also read the dead thread since he did a good job of explaining that, while that was a

good

scum game of mine, why it was still a scumgame due to aspects of my towngame being absent.

Basically, it was a fairly good scumgame, but there were still gaps in it.

Also, I realize it's not as obvious while doing an iso, that it's something hard to detect even in the postgame, but anecdotally if you were in the game at the time and were able to observe it in real time you'd instantly see:
In that game, there was a larger space between my content compared to this game in quite a lot of spaces. I often didn't post if I didn't have a need to. And if I did post, I often posted, overall, less, except during specific times of engagement where I was able to exude my town aura. Which is to say: I could not, from the getgo, from the onset, continuously and throughout the entirety of the game, maintain the town aura, maintain the energy of my town self. And the few times I did manage to do so, I usually had good justification. (There is a notable pickup in my play when I was able to use mechanics, as mechanics is something I am really damn good at regardless of my alignment and which helps mimic town-mastina even as scumastina; Dunnstral was genuinely such a lurksack to an extent that I've never seen from him before that if not for knowing I was scum I'd have been convinced he was scum, so it was easy to pressure him as such.)

Like I said--something like that is a bit hard to see in the aftermath of the game, but if you were there at the time, you'd be like, "oh yeah, I totally see that", where I lacked the energy to maintain it full time and most of the time I did have the energy, I was given ammunition which made it easy to have done so.

This game, however, my energy has been pretty damn consistent, even during the times where I've felt less useful. I've not had a 100% absolutely identical energy level every single rl day in this game, but the energy still was high, shifted forms from one to another and still was high, and even when I had less to offer, was higher overall. I've had moments of lower energy from rl stuff, rl distractions, etc., but I feel that overall, I've been triumphing over that energy lull from those rl things and managed to still try to give a ton even when at a lowpoint in mental/physical/emotional wellbeing. (For instance, I've been sick since Thanksgiving. I said as much in this gamethread, you may recall. I said, "hey, fair warning, am sick, so may not be able to do as much as normal". I'm still sick, with that same sickness, because it never went away, it's still here a full month later, but in spite of that, I've still been doing a lot.)

So while it is, of course, theoretically possible for me to be scum.
It'd have been an even bigger improvement on my scumgame. If this were a scumgame of mine, it'd literally be the best scumgame I've ever pulled off.

I will say however that there's another big thing that does give me towncred tho; I literally wrote the book on not bussing. You can see it evident in that micro; in the game, were I town, I'd have been scumreading Gypyx from D1 because his content that game was something easy to scumread and hard to townread, but instead I forced a townread because I wanted to use my influence to influence the town into thinking Gypyx was town.

In this game I reassessed Bell on D2, added evidence to the pile for Bell being scum, continued to campaign for Bell's death even after the IC urged us to spare Bell, called Bell-DEB as scum-scum, called DEB scum the entire game, and ultimately was hugely involved in the deaths of both scum.

This doesn't clear me--I pushed DEB but never voted him until D4; pushing Bell over DEB means little when both are scum; I initially had Bell as town and townier than two flipped town even at the beginning of D2; I was late on the initial Bell wagon; regardless of who's scum in Solstice/Ircher/PBE/Spiffeh I've defended all four of them rather heavily so fit as being a scumbuddy for any of them; I can and have bussed before, so me bussing in spite of writing the article on not bussing doesn't inherently clear me, because while I have a strong aversion to bussing in general, I can bus if I feel there is an actual strong reason to which would give us more reward than the risk involved (and you can pretty easily make the case that I thought the bus was worth it, there's enough to weave half a dozen or so narratives where I justify it).

But while it doesn't clear me, I do feel like it at least gives me fairly good ground to stand on in terms of towncred.

[mastina]

[Is Mastina willing to call three different town players confirmed 100% lockscum as mafia and then give lengthy cases for each of them? like does she have the scumrange to do so, I mean. it's impressive if so. i could not for the life of me find a good and recent mastina!scum game example.]

Oh I've done it before, but it's a rarity. I

think

the only time I've done that as scum was Anything Goes, but that was, explicitly, with the influence of Katsukii. (As a hydra, I tend to be influenced by the style of my hydra partner, picking up some of their quirks and traits. In that case, I picked up on some of Katsukii's aggression, tho that game was still mostly Katsukii rather than me; about 7-8/10 of the hydra's posts were Katsukii rather than me. (Notably: while not every post that's proper spelling/capitalization/grammar is me, if the post isn't proper spelling/capitalization/grammar it is for sure Katsukii.)

The closest beyond that would probably be Inorganic Chemistry. I had a (rather deliberate--I orchestrated it to deliberately make people think it was a TvT fight so that people would write me off as town) heated engagement with the Titus/Metal Sonic hydra, but I don't remember if I had that same energy pursuing other town players.

I THINK that's the only examples tho, that otherwise it hasn't happened at all. So, it's within my theoretical capacities as scum; in reality, it's far less so.

Maybe Spiffeh is guilty of this too, I don't really remember. I should review this, yup]

I'm pretty sure you're the only non-mason not guilty of it actually, of the alive players.

I dont think mastina has any comments for how it reflects on Murdercat's alignment, although she might have thought it was cherry-picked intentionally.]

None explicit I think, but I believe I did heavily imply that I thought the case felt like scum. I wasn't convinced the case came from scum, but I didn't think the case was townie-in-nature at the very least.

[Lul. This is the first and probably only occurrence i can think of where a player finds SvS to be the most likely option. And mastina goes back on it later when I think she could have gotten away with still pushing that without getting DEB killed. If I'm right, i think this progression makes mastina town.]

Devil's advocate: TMI is a thing and scumastina revels in using the truth as her weapon. My driving philosophy as scum is literally that the truth is your ally and that you can weaponize it to be genuine and sincere as scum and use that sincerity to tonally feel town to others and garner townreads.

But, yes, it'd have been a double-bus from me when I'm less inclined to do that normally, and yes, I did back out at a time where as scum I could have kept going on it. (For the record: there is a general towntell of someone correctly calling someone scum, but then out of paranoia, second-guessing themselves and hopping off. It's not a solid towntell, especially not due to players like me knowing about it and being able to theoretically abuse it as scum, but I do think that behavior usually does come from town even if the town often thinks it's from scum.)

..did Mastina realize Murdercat was a mason? I forgot about this. I think she is implying that here]

Not really, but sort-of. I didn't know, as in, I didn't think it was sure. But I put the pieces together and thought it was possible. I wasn't convinced MURDERCAT was a mason, but I did figure out it was at least

possible

MURDERCAT was a mason.

[Something I'm wondering now is, is Noraa starting to drown late game like I would expect her to do? I cannot remember the last substantial post she's made.

I would say so, yes.

[mastina]

[This is the first parallel I noticed -- prior to this post, I would say you have not been the same as this game. You've bounced your vote around 4 times, i wouldnt say you've really gone all out with your reasoning (as you can see here where you explain you aren't) whereas with BM you felt very dialed in and solid. Even before BM you had like, an extremely rigid and confident readslist where you confirm towned people, strong towned people, and so on. Just a result of this setup's draft phase being unique? Maybe, but still, vibes are different and obviously they continue on as you scumread BM/Creature.]

Right, that would be the point where I had mechanics to work off of--while I am a mechanical player regardless of my alignment, mechanics talk helps scumastina more than it does me as town because mechtalk allows for me to be more sincere/genuine and fake scumhunt better.

Also, fun fact. The linked post you gave is 100% true; regardless of my alignment, I

am

lazy, I

will

leave things out when I feel them unnecessary, I

do

like to hold back for reactions; I

do

like narratives, all as town just as much as when scum. But while I may have made a post like that game's 199 before as town, I legit think that most of the times I've made a post like that, I was scum.

Also, I never once made a readslist that scumgame. I can make readslists as scum, but it's been a trait absent from my scumgames for two years. It's fully possible this game is the first scumgame of mine in two years to have it, because it's possible for my scumgame to have gotten even better. But, yeah, the definitive readslist for the last two years

has

been a towntell, yes.

[Looking thru it looks like you put an overwhelming amount of effort into .. casing why a townie is town, so far.]

Oh yeah I do that as both alignments, but I do it slightly more often as scum probably. As town I'll do it mostly when the player I am very strongly defending is at risk of being eliminated. I still do so as scum during those times (and Nic was in fact doing just that), but I do it more often and more consistently and on more players with me typically focusing less on offense overall. scumastina has a bad tendency to be overall too defensive. Whereas town-mastina will use the poe to launch an offense, and use defense mostly to defend the offense.

[mastina]

I'm really surprised no one is seeing what I'm seeing here

Oh I guess I can see how that could be a coordinated 1-2-3-punch of all the remaining scum hammering a wagon.

After all, FL does like to infamously fuck with VCA and coordinate scumblocs in voting.

I don't really have much of a defense against that other than explaining my viewpoint that I thought an L-2 vote was genuinely safe to make and I thought was the optimal move, to keep DEB near the elimination mark but not at L-1 until we were ready, but I realize that does little to deter the thought of a scum-coordinated quickhammer given it IS a move FL would pull. (Tho I would say that if I had to guess, scumastina would be disinclined to follow through on FL's request for it, but I'm not sure enough to say so definitively since it's possible I would.)

I would ask tho that if you think it's true, to at least eliminate Polar Bear Express first before considering me.

[mastina]

[I concur with Ircher though that it is very conceivable for mastina to think that vote was low-risk. I did NOT expect that to happen at all, i didn't think we were gonna place Dr Easy to X-1 until Toog was around, since like, that's the precedent we had set with the X-2. I was flabbergasted that the day got cut off like that]
~Morning

For what it's worth: so was I.

I did, indeed, think it was an entirely safe vote--I didn't want to run into the risk of me triggering a possible hated supersaint, after all. (Because, per the mod's ruling on votes, DEB never went to L-1. Toogeloo did a vote on DEB and an unvote on DEB in the same post, with the unvote being after the vote. Per the mod, the only vote-action taken was Toogeloo's unvote, so Toogeloo never voted DEB. It's one of the reasons I thought he was scum. The mod had EARLIER ALREADY CLARIFIED THIS INTERACTION and yet Toogeloo in spite of the mod having already clarified that a DEB vote wouldn't be counted in the same post as an unvote, decided to do so anyway rather than separate the vote and unvote into separate posts.)

I wanted Toogeloo to cast a PROPER L-1 vote when he came in on Monday, then unvote in a separate post, and then revote as the hammer.

After all--DEB was at L-2 for quite a while before I voted him. Why would he be hammered when I put him to L-2, when he wasn't hammered when Ircher earlier had him at L-2? So I was caught off-guard, too, but I don't really have much in the way of defending the action beyond this.