Mini 659: The Neighborhood- Game over on Day 6

[Rashiminos]

Going through the thread and making some notes in order...

iamausername's post 197 had some good questions.

Ythill quotes something as if it had been typed by bionic, but was actually posted by iamausername. Probably a mistake, but I'll note it for future reference.

Darox needs to use clearer language to reduce these misunderstandings that provide legitimate reasons for why his posts are "misrepresented."

iamausername argues that lynching someone for anti-town behavior is not what we should be doing. Instead we should be lynching scum. I want to know what iamausername thinks the difference is in these two categories of lynch reasons.

Why should I have unvoted him?

Because when someone is at L-1, they are in imminent danger of being hammered. If you see that the person you are voting for is at L-1 and choose not to unvote, and then someone hammers, you are directly responsible for that lynch as much as the guy who placed the hammer vote. And if you're as uncertain about Lowell's alignment as you say, I wouldn't think you'd want to be in that position. Did the speed that the wagon on Lowell grew not give you any cause for concern?

As part of the "Lowell sould claim or die crowd," I disagree with this statement. L-1 and hammer are two different things. If iamausername thinks the speed of the wagon was a problem, then perhaps he should examine the reasons for voting Lowell and comment on how substantial they are in his opinion.

I find this phrasing interesting. Town are looking out for people who are actually acting scummy. Scum are looking out for townies who are making themselves look scummy.

---

You seem to believe that these two qualities don't overlap. Isn't it possible that someone "looks scummy" BECAUSE they are "acting scummy?"

How do you determine someone is actually acting?

[iamausername]

iamausername argues that lynching someone for anti-town behavior is not what we should be doing. Instead we should be lynching scum. I want to know what iamausername thinks the difference is in these two categories of lynch reasons.

I think you'll find I was actually arguing that we shouldn't be lynching someone because their play style is anti-town, which seemed to be what Darox was suggesting.

If iamausername thinks the speed of the wagon was a problem, then perhaps he should examine the reasons for voting Lowell and comment on how substantial they are in his opinion.

Fairly certain I've already done this.

You seem to believe that these two qualities don't overlap. Isn't it possible that someone "looks scummy" BECAUSE they are "acting scummy?"

You're missing half the quote. It's the fact that he said "

making themselves

look scummy" that stuck out to me. That just doesn't seem like a town-minded wording; it sounds more like he's trying to find someone to pin some guilt on rather than honestly trying to find scum.

[Tommy]

The last quote in 226 should be attributed to Rashiminos.

[iamausername]

But I like arguing with myself!

[iamausername]

But I like arguing with myself!

No I don't!

[crywolf20084]

Only if no one manages to

make themselves look scummier

and a deadline threatens, but I find this unlikely.

I find this phrasing interesting. Town are looking out for people who are actually acting scummy. Scum are looking out for townies who are making themselves look scummy.

I highly agree with this. I'm starting to think that Darox is starting to crack under the questions, which i think are fairly easy questions to answer.

Darox needs to use clearer language to reduce these misunderstandings that provide legitimate reasons for why his posts are "misrepresented."

QFT. Like i just said, i feel as though he's starting to break under the pressure of everyone 'not understanding him'.

iamausername argues that lynching someone for anti-town behavior is not what we should be doing. Instead we should be lynching scum. I want to know what iamausername thinks the difference is in these two categories of lynch reasons.

I saw that too, but when I saw you posted it i didn't feel like quoteing it myself.

I do want to know what the difference. Yes sometimes town does give off scum vibes, but are those not the vibes you should follow to make sure that, ehem, you get the scum????

@User: I think arguing with the others is more effective in finding scum, FYI.

[Lowell]

I'm back. And not buying the case against Darox. I think there's some opportunism going on here. Something about Tommy's "I think I understand you" post set off alarm bells, as did the fact that crywolf seemed to find the coziest spot on the wagon to sit on.

[gorckat]

Vote Count

Lowell (5):

Tommy, Darox, Rashiminos, Oman, TonyMontana

crywolf (2):

bionic, Ythill,

Rashiminos:

Lowell

Darox:

iamausername

Not voting (3):

fhqwhgads, Elias, crywolf

**Elias and Oman prodded**

[TonyMontana]

But I like arguing with myself!

No I don't!

This guy is funny, he can't be scum.

[Rashiminos]

iamausername argues that lynching someone for anti-town behavior is not what we should be doing. Instead we should be lynching scum. I want to know what iamausername thinks the difference is in these two categories of lynch reasons.

I think you'll find I was actually arguing that we shouldn't be lynching someone because their play style is anti-town, which seemed to be what Darox was suggesting.

Okay, so now tell me what you think the difference between behavior and playstyle is in these circumstances.

If iamausername thinks the speed of the wagon was a problem, then perhaps he should examine the reasons for voting Lowell and comment on how substantial they are in his opinion.

Fairly certain I've already done this.

It would you seem to me that you have not. If you did, you need to do a better job. I request you give a thorough account of your opinions for the votes on Lowell starting with post 85, whether or not those votes are still in effect.

You seem to believe that these two qualities don't overlap. Isn't it possible that someone "looks scummy" BECAUSE they are "acting scummy?"

You're missing half the quote. It's the fact that he said "

making themselves

look scummy" that stuck out to me. That just doesn't seem like a town-minded wording; it sounds more like he's trying to find someone to pin some guilt on rather than honestly trying to find scum.

I'm curious... What's your reasoning/rationale for suggesting that a townie would not phrase someone's "scumminess" in that manner?

[Rashiminos]

EBWOP: Lowell has refused to claim. I support a hammering.

[Tommy]

Lowell has refused to claim. I support a hammering.

There's still a week before the deadline, so if people need to discuss this further, that's fine by me. But personally, I agree. Lowell remains the scummiest player, and I'd like to see him swing. Darox and crywolf have been playing poorly, and we should keep an eye on both of them during day 2, but neither has avoided questions as blatantly as Lowell, and neither has lied about another player in an attempt to get them killed.

[Darox]

##Unvote

I don't support any hammering of Lowell right now. Still want him to talk more though.

[Ythill]

@ Tommy: I thought you meant you were going to address what I said

about you

. Now I understand.

The gist is that crywolf may be scummy to fall for Lowell's bait, but that Lowell is scummier for setting it in the first place.

That's if you believe it was bait. I agree with what Lowell said about Tony. His post was all over the map. Was that enough for Lowell to place a vote? On page 2? Absolutely.

Do you still believe Tony's is a scummy vote, though?

Less so, but yes.

Re: wolf and the n00b card... it’s a possibility that’s been bouncing around in my brain, which is why I haven’t pushed her too hard yet.

Compare Lowell: (1) his focus shifts when he feels the wind changing, but (2) it's always possible to say what he's trying to pull.

That’s pretty ridiculous, Tommy. (1) You cannot possibly know what Lowell is “feeling.” (2) Is the above “bait” an example of this? I fear you are projecting.

He's more coherent than crywolf, and therefore more suspicious.

So a player who plays the VI well is more likely to be scum? I don’t agree with that. In fact, I’d say it makes it more likely to be a null-tell, since a coherent VI is more likely to play similarly regardless of alignment.

Hey, I'm actually not bionic.

Yeah... ooops. You sorta look bionic.

On other topics…

I totally agree with the questions posed to Darox and I don’t like how his replies have gone. He’s dodged the basic gist of the accusation: voting a player whom you find neutral yet disruptive is not pro-town play, and it suggests overall suspicions that are too weak for a townie to hold honestly. It sounds like scum leaving room, later, to escape culpability for a lynch or to reverse positions if the wagon goes sour. Saying “misrep” and getting frustrated does not change these things.

Furthermore, when asked to defend his vote, Darox tried in vain and eventually detracted it quietly. And there have been a few other minor points.

##unvote; vote: Darox

I am intrigued by Rash’s latest questions. I think this discussion between he and user will provide a good deal of information.

I’m curious where Oman’s gotten off to. Still wondering how he saw wolf’s fishing as well-intentioned.

[fhqwhgads]

I don't support any hammering of Lowell right now. Still want him to talk more though.

Woah! You keep on arguing about why you haven't retracted your vote, and now you try to slip under the radar and remove it quietly?

I now fully endorse

##vote:Darox

.

Besides, I find it highly doubtful that Lowell is going to humour you now and start talking.

[Darox]

The case against me is highly amusing.

Does anyone have something other than that I don't want to see Lowell dead right away but I do want him to say more?

[Oman]

Ah, forgot to watch the topic. My bad.

[fhqwhgads]

The case against me is highly amusing.

Does anyone have something other than that I don't want to see Lowell dead right away but I do want him to say more?

Was that the case?

I thought the case was that you seemed to think his play style is scummy, yet refused to remove your vote at L-1.

Now that he is at L-1 again, you suddenly do remove the vote, contradicting your previous argument of 'what is wrong with being at L-1'?

Also, this isn't the first time in this game that Lowell is it L-1. What makes you think the strategy is going to make him talk this time?

[Oman]

PRetty much a suble cop direct. But it looks well intentioned.

Well intentioned how?

I.e. He wants the cop to find scum.

Ythill wins townie brownies...

Thanks and all, but I'd rather have you nominate me for a special title.

My bad, maybe after the game.

1. Conspiracy? Really?
2. Policy lynch on page 8. I knew you were a rash player but... wow.
3. I agree that the information potential is good.
4. How is having a cop unusual?
5. Nice sentiment, but it's a lot scarier from someone who isn't already voting for him.

1. Ya, conspiracy.
2. Would you prefer a policy lynch later in the game? Page 8 is the best time.

For clarification, I'm not rash, I'm just not a pansy. That is, most people are afraid to do certain things cause it makes them look scummy, I'm not, I do what I can to find scum.
3. It is.
4. Its not unusal, its just not guarentteed.
5. Well, Its standard.

If you don't back this one up, it is strike 2.

3 strikes and you vote? Or are these hollow?

Also: I just remembered where I first met you. You were a cop. I killed you.

##unvote

Taking Lowell off the edge, to avoid untimely hammer.

Claim

You skirt. No-one hammers these days cause they're too afraid to. Just like you're afraid of the hammer.

I'm confused as to what you mean by this. How are we promised more information than usual?

The miller suggests a cop. Doesn't guarentee though.

I said I was inclined to believe iamausername, and you inferred that I was inclined to believe anyone saying anything. Is your sarcasm intended to make everyone else think I'm stupid? Why would you want to do that?

No, you believed a miller. You were inclined to believe a miller, whatever, the point is, you took something someone said on Page 1 at face value. Which is not a good idea.

If you didn't want him lynched, you should have unvoted

Incorrect, if he wanted a claim or just pressure, its all good.

OH WAIT!

##Unvote

I don't support any hammering of Lowell right now. Still want him to talk more though.

This shows he wanted pressure.

##unvote; vote: Darox

Bad move.

I now fully endorse ##vote:Darox.

Also a bad move.

The case against me is highly amusing.

Also wrong.


You guys really need to get your shit together and look at what is anti-town.

[Darox]

Was that the case?

I thought the case was that you seemed to think his play style is scummy, yet refused to remove your vote at L-1.

Now that he is at L-1 again, you suddenly do remove the vote, contradicting your previous argument of 'what is wrong with being at L-1'?

Also, this isn't the first time in this game that Lowell is it L-1. What makes you think the strategy is going to make him talk this time?

Wait, what?

He was not at L-1 again, he was on the same 5 votes he had been on since Tommy unvoted when he was at L-1 the first and only time.

So, I am not contradicting myself, and there is still nothing wrong with being at L-1. My argument is not 'what is wrong with L-1', I don't have an argument against your points because you don't have any real points.

[fhqwhgads]

He was not at L-1 again...

My bad. My point still stands that you tried to climb out of the bandwagon quietly after you basically refused to do so in you previous arguments.

@oman: I'm pretty sure that his actions so far has shown that Lowell doesn't react to voting pressure. Darox's unvote was just a bit too timely for my liking. Voting isn't the same as lynching, and he's far from that.

[TonyMontana]

You skirt. No-one hammers these days cause they're too afraid to. Just like you're afraid of the hammer.

Pfft, well I ain't never scared to hammer. -.- Besides, I've seen the "woops, he was on L-1?" one too many times.

[Rashiminos]

Correction: Lowell has been at L-1 twice. The first time was when crywolf voted him, and then later Elias unvoted so that Oman was able to put him at L-1 again.

I sense a lot of people jumping wagons lately. My quote miners will be noting this.


I'm not currently understanding how the Darox votes based on his wanting to lynch Lowell for anti-town behavior (as Darox said, "neutral" between either obv scum or VI) necessarily implies Darox is trying to get a townie lynched. I'd like additional explanation on how Daroxtown would avoid this reasoning for voting Lowell, and how it benefits Daroxscum in terms of getting a mislynch while appearing to be legitimately scumhunting.

fhqwhgads vote is understandable, as someone "didn't know" where the Lowell vote count was, and tried to join in the unvoting festivities.

2 crywolf voters have defected to the Darox wagon: iamausername, Ythill

1 Lowell voter has defected: fhqwhgads

Does this mean anything?

Another note: 8 players have voted for Lowell throughout today, and instead of having him lynched, we currently have some people unvoting to "avoid the hammer."

Those players are: Tommy, Darox, Rashiminos, Oman, TonyMontana, Elias, crywolf, and fhqwhgads

I'm sensing some fishiness from the unvote brigade...

You skirt. No-one hammers these days cause they're too afraid to. Just like you're afraid of the hammer.

Pfft, well I ain't never scared to hammer. -.- Besides, I've seen the "woops, he was on L-1?" one too many times.

Yep, perfectly hammerphobic here.

[Oman]

He was not at L-1 again...

My bad. My point still stands that you tried to climb out of the bandwagon quietly after you basically refused to do so in you previous arguments.

@oman: I'm pretty sure that his actions so far has shown that Lowell doesn't react to voting pressure. Darox's unvote was just a bit too timely for my liking. Voting isn't the same as lynching, and he's far from that.

You're right..

Lets lynch the bastard! (Lowell I mean).

[TonyMontana]

Yep, perfectly hammerphobic here.

Guilty as charged. The last time I played mafia, the hammers were flying left and right.
In any case, I unvoted to make room for a claim from lowell 2 pages and 5 days ago. I guess it ain't happenin..