Mini 644 - Meerkat Manor Mafia (Game Over!)

[wolframnhart]

@Rhinox

@wolf: ckd and Vi are absolutely right and I was thining the exact same thing as I read down through the posts. Why would you have expected Vi to hammer muffin in his first post into the game? And why is is suspisious for him to not do so? I don't think Vi was being contradictory at all, and I think its unfair for you to accuse him so.

It's not that I was expecting Vi to hammer, it's the fact that he had gone ahead and said he was ok with muffin being lynched, made a case against muffin, implied a few others are scummy to him, then told Jon:

By not committing to a vote and position on who you want lynched, you're never taking a stand, but willing to do whatever won't get you in trouble.

So Vi was also not taking a stand on a vote on who he wanted lynched and I was just asking why because it seemed contradictory to me.
But Vi has already explained why he didn't vote on anyone just yet and I am satisfied with the answer.

[Rhinox]

something about this statement doesnt sit right with me. if muffin is a townie, how do you know that the SK (if we have another) or scum are not already on the wagon?

That was sort of an implied message in my post... The fact the no one is eager to hammer makes me want to think that scum (and sk) are either already on the wagon, or...

It is actually a WIFOM statement though, even still. An SK or scum could just as easily be wanting to avoid the scrutiny that can come from being the hammer vote against a townie.

...exactly ^^that^^ too.

Also ecto, you don't need to outright defend a player to find a reason to justify keeping a scummy looking townie around as a scapegoat for later on. However, how about you tell us why we

shouldn't

lynch muffin (other than because he and bogre aren't looking like scum partners - because I'm not sure anyone used only that to justify their vote on him) rather than asking us to re-justify our votes (even though a number of us already had by the time you even asked). Also:

Asking for someone to re-evaluate their case based upon latest trends is a fine hair from defending the target of the case.

Questioning an accuser for what I feel is a bad argument is a fine hair from defending the target of the accusation, but it is still often interpretted as defending the player. Sometimes even the most subtle defenses are overlooked at the time, and only later the epiphany is made that "oh, he was actually defending that player there...". I just like to make sure I leave no stones un-turned.

To that end, I agree with Ectomancer 348 that Rhinox's attempt to pin the tail on the scummy is WIFOMtastic - that Ectomancer looks bad in his analysis regardless of whether he hammers or not (and whether he's scum or not).

No, no, no don't misinterpret my comments. I believe I said exactly...

So, the only conclusion I can draw right now is that I'm uncomfortable about ecto, but the evidence for a case is lacking.

I was never trying to pin ecto as scummy no matter what, and I agree that its entirely WIFOM which is why I said about ecto and others...

but the cases depend on first knowing more information about other players roles (i.e. players have to die) before they begin to build any legitamacy.

Don't misinterpret me suggesting what

could

be with what definately

is

. And just because I can imagine Ecto being scum based on a number of different outcomes doesn't mean I would use that circumstantial evidence to justify a vote or call for a lynch - at least not until much later in the game if there is nothing better to go on.

So to summarize, any case I see against ecto right now is in the back of my mind until anything happens to corroberate any theory, My ultimatum towards muffin still stands, and Cass us making me the most nervous based on recent comments.

@wolf:

@Rhinox

@wolf: ckd and Vi are absolutely right and I was thining the exact same thing as I read down through the posts. Why would you have expected Vi to hammer muffin in his first post into the game? And why is is suspisious for him to not do so? I don't think Vi was being contradictory at all, and I think its unfair for you to accuse him so.

It's not that I was expecting Vi to hammer, it's the fact that he had gone ahead and said he was ok with muffin being lynched, made a case against muffin, implied a few others are scummy to him, then told Jon:

By not committing to a vote and position on who you want lynched, you're never taking a stand, but willing to do whatever won't get you in trouble.

So Vi was also not taking a stand on a vote on who he wanted lynched and I was just asking why because it seemed contradictory to me.
But Vi has already explained why he didn't vote on anyone just yet and I am satisfied with the answer.

I'm satisfied with this answer.

[Cass]

I also feel that Cass is trying to backpedal out of the muffin case a bit.

@Muffin: please claim. Especially if you're town. Extra especially if you have information for town.
Before muffin even claimed, she is already submitting that she might have a problem hammering. Also unsettling is that Cass is asking for the second time for muffin to claim (note: muffin is still inactive, and would presumedly read all the requests to claim - no need to keep demanding it) and what is especially concerning is that Cass is specifically asking for information that would help the town that would presumedly only come from a power role. This is basically the same thing Clock did by asking for "more flavor".

I've always preferred the Bogre lynch, and my vote expressed that. But (before replacements) I would have considered hammering Muffin when that choice had to be made. Because I saw the value of the case, and the possibility of the pairing. Now everybody seems to think that Bogre was innocent after all - and indeed, if Bogre had made a post like that, I would probably have unvoted him. His lurking strongly reinforced my case. This shift on Bogre also makes me doubt more that Muffin is scum, yes.

And no, Bogre couldn't have said just anything to remove my vote... though perhaps, you know, I wanted him to think so?

And

I am by no means doing what clock did

. Clock asked for flavor on a vanilla claim. I want to make sure we don't lynch a power role before he gets a chance to claim. Won't you feel stupid if you hammer and he turns out to be a cop? (For example, obv.) For that reason, I do ask you to wait until Muffin has been online at least (or gets replaced).

[Ectomancer]

Ok, let's take a look at your evaluation of Muffin:

My personal conclusions:

I agree with the muffinhead lynch. He's not necessarily Commando, but between his eagerness to vote mafiamann D1 and his overall deficient responses to the Cloud of Suspicion D2 it would be tough to make a case for his Towniness following the random vote stage. Either way, as of now he's acting as dead weight and a scumminess magnet that will just distract from future conversation. I agree with Rhinox; it's a utility lynch that I believe will help more than keeping him alive.

Alright, his eagerness to vote MafiaMann? I'm not certain that I saw it that way. He agreed with Clock's case when it was presented, and it was Clock's case that I referenced when I decided to also vote for MafiaMann. Why would he not stay on the wagon when I referenced the exact case he said he approved of?
Much of other suspicion I saw was his use of the phrase "to be all honest". Null tell here for me, maybe others have different experiences.
I believe that Cloud of Suspicion you referenced

was

strongly tied to a Muffin/Bogre scum pairing, which is why I asked about it in the first place. Could you elaborate on that Cloud of Suspicion? It is a foggy term to me. Part of the issue people were having with Muffin was that he could not see the case on

your

role Vi. Are you saying there

is

a good case on you and Muffin should have seen it?

Now that was a piece of defense Rhinox
There are some determined players on this lynch. So certain.
The legs this case is standing on look weak to me. I'll just have to get over it if some of you take offense to that opinion.

[Rishi]

Vote Count

muffinhead - 4 (curiouskarmadog, StrangerCoug, Rhinox, wolframnhart)
Vi – 1 (jonathantan86)
StrangerCoug – 1 (muffinhead)
jonathantan86 – 1 (Ectomancer)

Not voting: Vi, Cass

With 9 alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch.

Prodding muffinhead.

[Vi]

I believe that Cloud of Suspicion you referenced was strongly tied to a Muffin/Bogre scum pairing, which is why I asked about it in the first place. Could you elaborate on that Cloud of Suspicion? It is a foggy term to me.

It's a term I made up on the spot~

Looking through my analysis, it seems that muffinheadxBogre started in 286 when muffinhead asked what the arguments were against Bogre, correct? That seems to be the dominating reason people are interested in muffinhead; most or all of youse have said it at one point. But there are still a few sticking points on him.

To be all honest i think im beginning to lose intrest in this game so I will try to keep up as much as posible and try not to e a lurker as I personally hate them

...which Rhinox took to mean "I'll lurk, hope you understand". So far he's doing a good job of lurking, and we're doing a good job of understanding - but as far as what we understand of it, I'm sure muffinhead wouldn't like.

post about bogre later

I haven't seen it.

His claims of semi-intentional inactivity and thoughtlessness aren't helping. ckd 311 shows that muffinhead's feeble attempt to turn around even ckd's sketchtastic tell failed. StrangerCoug's 312 is more interesting as a display of hypocrisy based on activity.

One could even make a case for muffinhead being another VI. By giving muffinhead generous helpings of the benefit of the doubt, I can interpret his posts to where they're actually not terribly scummy. Here's an example.

Im trying to understand the bogre case and i would like to request quotes of his scumminess if you want me to even consider joining the wagon. I would like to hear from bogre defend him self again.

I never said that i didnt think bogre was scummy. I said i dont understand the cases against him. In fact its quite annoying that he hasnt posted in ages. It seemed that no one liked his defence the orginal time so im asking him to do it again.

At the time, muffinhead has been fixated on StrangerCoug for a while now. In the first post he's asking about the case on Bogre and asks for reasons he would be considered scummy. Until then, he's on fire for StrangerCoug and not gonna budge. He then clarifies to say that while he thinks Bogre is scummy, he's still not the best choice as compared to StrangerCoug, but wants to see Bogre defend himself anyway (what exactly muffinhead thought Bogre should defend, other than perhaps "everyone else's reasons for thinking he's scummy", is unclear).

---------

But to actually see him as scum... Looking back at Day 2, his argument against Ectomancer and wolframnhart wasn't that bad from a feasibility standpoint... but his StrangerCoug arguments were a bit flimsy (not necessarily so much when reading through the rose-tinted glasses I used above, but still weak), and for the rest of the day he's just been floundering. As I said before, I don't think he's necessarily Commando, but he's draining time and attention from the Town and unlikely to improve on his own.

Now as a summary i am losing intrest in this game and this will most likly be my last game on ms while I have a break. Well actully i will mod a game then leave as thats what ive always wanted to do. Now i would like to go out in fassion with a win which is why i havnt decided to be replaced. But when you just dont have that intrest in the game its hard to find scum and help so if im lurking and looking scummy then I do apologies for letting the town down but it still means im here and I will help to the best that i can do.

Literally, he's staying in this game for his own pride. That's why I would like for him to be replaced.

--------

Alright, his eagerness to vote MafiaMann? I'm not certain that I saw it that way. He agreed with Clock's case when it was presented, and it was Clock's case that I referenced when I decided to also vote for MafiaMann. Why would he not stay on the wagon when I referenced the exact case he said he approved of?

Hmm... This is the non-quoted part of the post where muffinhead jumps on the mafiamann wagon.

This is an excellent post. I feel much better about clock so

unvote, vote mafiamann

He is acutally getting worse by the post, every post he makes looks odd in some sort of way and the above post explains alot which I totally agree with. At the moment he stands out as scummiest player to me more then anyone else.

Which is okay, I suppose, but then he doesn't say anything else until--

@ mafiamann- why are you going out there asking people to claim? You seem keen to get out there and reveal urself. Also your claim says everything the vanillia role says and it sounds as if your reading it as you go which looks really suspecisious.

I really don't buy this last sentence. Anyway, that's all muffinhead says about mafiamann until

within two hours

of his self-vote, curiously beating Rishi locking the thread.

I suppose I misspoke in saying that he was "eager" to vote mafiamann, basing that on his blanket "I agree with Clocksarian2" reason for voting; but then I reread to see that he added some of his own reason to his vote justification in 113. However, this does more clearly demonstrate that muffinhead was only slightly more contributory when he was active than when he was totally absent. Hence the utility lynch.

-----------

Part of the issue people were having with Muffin was that he could not see the case on

your

role Vi. Are you saying there

is

a good case on you and Muffin should have seen it?

Easy, easy. *points the gun away from me like Bugs Bunny would*
As I said earlier, I can't justify everything Bogre did, and I will confess I had a lot of doubts about what I was getting into when I replaced in. (So sue me, I got bored and I've wanted to replace into a game ever since Cass replaced into one of mine.) But as it turns out (with some surprise), Bogre was - and thus I am - pro-Town. Thus, I'm... not pleased about muffinhead missing the arguments about Bogre and asking

twice

about them, because it does make my slot look pretty terrible. I understand a desire to see exactly what has made people upset about someone else, but at the same time, he kind of DID just miss a direct answer to it (although muffinhead did ask for quotes). I honestly don't know how muffinhead overlooked that answer entirely, aside from going right by it while skimming the latest posts when he was getting ready to post again.

---------------------
@@@@@@@@@
---------------------

I feel like I'm repeating myself to the point of being obnoxious for stating an overall conclusion, but here it is. I don't think there's enough here to safely say that it's most probable that muffinhead is scum. I do agree with offing him so we don't have to get hung up on him again, since I have to question the amount and quality he has contributed to the game. I would rather he be replaced, though, but if he specifically doesn't want that to happen, so be it. (If he's going to be replaced, according to the rules of the game the replace-request will be sent out next Monday.) I affirm separately that there are more people who need time under the microscope, but we can just as easily do that tomorrow if today's lynch is generally accepted.

[StrangerCoug]

I suppose I misspoke in saying that he was "eager" to vote mafiamann, basing that on his blanket "I agree with Clocksarian2" reason for voting; but then I reread to see that he added some of his own reason to his vote justification in 113.

So this is ClockworkRuse and Yosarian2's kid? xD

[jonathantan86]

Unvote

*jonathantan86 needs to explain why he only posts every two-to-five days. I really don't like it, considering he misses so much. Plus--

Besides I don't think that we would lynch someone without discussion. Town wouldn't put the vote count so close to 7, and scum (supposing SC is town) wouldn't want to do that either because it may make them look scummy.

FOS: StrangerCoug

Having said that, I think some mafia are on the wagon. Not because they want to see SC lynched, but because it may make them look good if SC dies and turns out to be part of the mafia.

This in particular bothers me. You're

banking that StrangerCoug is scum in order to look for other scum bussing him

in this post.

I gave my reasons for thinking that SC might be scum (basically hitting at those who had been voting for him, even though there's no threat), and then extrapolating from there what might be the case.

I don't post that regularly because I'm quite busy at the moment, but I will try to do so now.

Yes I'm not committing myself---my reasons for putting this vote is similar to those who have put the vote on me in Day 1. The second statement is true, but I don't see what's wrong with that. Also, I'm not helping a bandwagon---the bandwagon is on muffinhead, not bogre.

I'm not sure you realize what you're saying. By not committing to a vote and position on who you want lynched, you're never taking a stand, but willing to do whatever won't get you in trouble. Being able to vote people and cast suspicion on them without being held responsible is the kind of ability scum players dream of. And it seems to me that there's a double-bandwagon going on - one dominant one on muffinhead, and one on Bogre/me, the alleged scumpartner.
And rest assured, at the moment Bogre needs no more pressure votes.

Make a choice. Who do you think is most worthy of a lynch right now? Vote them. If you decide someone else is more worthy of a lynch, tell why.

I think muffinhead is, but I'll wait for him to claim.

You (vi/bogre) come second, but that's only because of bogre's previous actions (and to a lesser extent muffinhead defending him). I was hoping he could defend his statements, but that's kind of impossible now.

[Ectomancer]

Well, you do try Vi, I'll give you that. But listen, in my estimation, much of what you said could be explained by Muffin simply being lazy. I think this is why people are pushing the 'utility lynch' angle. (An angle I do not agree with without a deadline hanging over our heads) In my experience though, lazy is not equal to scum.
I do agree with you that at this point a replacement can be hoped for, but I would be content to see Muffin come back and apply himself.

[Vi]

Very well. If you do not want muffinhead lynched, then there's an obvious follow-up question: What would you recommend we do instead? I would rather not have the game sit around until next month for muffinhead to be replaced (even if it fits the absence in my sig).

[Ectomancer]

Very well. If you do not want muffinhead lynched, then there's an obvious follow-up question: What would you recommend we do instead? I would rather not have the game sit around until next month for muffinhead to be replaced (even if it fits the absence in my sig).

Perhaps it wasn't your intention with this statement, but I wont be misdirected. Simply leaving Muffin's case out there to be utilized at the proper moment without clearing it up here and now is a poor choice for us. What would I recommend we do instead? Wait for the claim in Muffinhead's case. He is at L-1 on what I believe I have demonstrated is a case that isn't as lock down as the confidence I'm seeing displayed would merit. So I would also like to hear once again who is still supporting that case in light of what I had to say. The purpose of that is to make people commit to their opinions.
In answer to your last question, I'll stay in Iraq for 100 years if...err..I mean, I'll wait a month for that claim or replacement if necessary, though I guarantee I'll be harrassing the mod before then.

[Ectomancer]

Also Vi, you may have missed this, but this is the direction I took the morning of the day you replaced in. Maybe you feel too close to the argument as well, but for now this is my play. General town sentiment towards Bogre/Vi since you replaced in probably lends credence to this line of thought.

On Bogre: I looked at the case on him, and I feel Im too close to the argument to be objective. We likely only have 7 town. If I dont vote for him, and Bogre is scum, 5 of 6 of you will need to be voting for him unless his partner decides to bus.
If he were town, I would have thought his bandwagon would have grown faster because scum would be trying to help it along. (I know, entirely an unsupported opinion)
That's why Im really not liking Jonathan's vote when you take in his last 2 comments.

Vote: Bogre

This is just for pressure, not planning to lynch just yet. Hopefully he will come back and post.

I did not vote anyone yesterday for the same reasons, and also because everyone seemed to be on MM's case which I disagreed with.

To paraphrase: Im placing my vote, but I'm not actually committing myself so I'll be clear if he turns up town. Also, I didnt commit my vote yesterday, and oh yes, I didnt agree with the case on that townie yesterday.

vote jonathantan86

He is 'helping' along a bandwagon, yet backpedaling in the middle of doing it. I dont like it.

[Vi]

Forgive me if it seemed like I was misrepresenting you; you effectively answered what I meant. To make sure we're on the same page, let me paraphrase what was said.

Q: What should we do now, if we're not going to lynch muffinhead immediately?
A: Leave muffinhead at L-1 until he claims and hear from everyone else to see if the muffinhead lynch is indeed a good move in light of what has been said most recently; but also look into jonathantan86 while we're waiting so as to go after someone who IYO has a better case for being Mafia right now and will give us some direction after the muffinhead issue has passed.

Is that about correct? Well, as of now I guess I can look into jon.

---------------------

FOS: StrangerCoug

Having said that, I think some mafia are on the wagon. Not because they want to see SC lynched, but because it may make them look good if SC dies and turns out to be part of the mafia.

Red flag: You're effectively assuming StrangerCoug is scum (for reasons you've already mentioned) and saying there are already other scum on the wagon to bus him. Certainly not the conventional argument.
Red flag: Yet you only FoS StrangerCoug... is this perhaps to ensure you're not on the wagon? Or are you hinting that you have a scumbuddy on the wagon?
I don't know what to say about this other than that it feels very wrong.
(BTW, the wagon at this point is MafiaMann, Cass, Ectomancer, and Rhinox.)

Discussion is currently revolving around:

- StrangerCoug's random vote on himself (which is the second vote for him)
- MafiaMann's third vote on SC (second if you don't count SC's own vote) which some people think is opportunistic to start a wagon
- some people think SC's random vote is scummy, some think it's a null-tell
- SC complains when more votes pile on him, so does ClockworkRuse (Clock says it's because the wagon is too quick and scum-driven, and this wagon draws discussion away from other things)

Is this all?

A fairly useless post. Also his first post in three days. Explains it in 165, two days later.

Um the reason I asked for the topics of conversation is because all my ideas were based on that and I did not want to miss anything out.

(What ideas, and what do you think you're missing out on?)
He puts a "tentative" vote on ClockworkRuse here for reasons that check out.

In 200, he does some noodling with quasi-defending mafiamann "because he doesn't want a mislynch". He doesn't take a stand on anyone. Turned around by Rhinox 213. In 216 jon says he didn't think half of the arguments against mafiamann were scumtells at all prior to 200, and sort of leans against Mafiamann at that point.

In 216 jon focuses on the meta and suggests for someone to try to look for connections between ClockworkRuse and someone else.

In 287... well... it's weak all around. Seriously. He takes aim at a part of muffinhead's vote on Ectomancer and also says

Hmm...I thought a few people have already explained the bogre case? It is possibly opportunistic, but I think there are good reasons for voting for bogre.

In 297 and 308, about a day and a half apart, he gives small cases against people but doesn't vote anyone and doesn't really seem committed to anyone. He only says that muffinhead and Bogre "might be scum".

318 is the one Ectomancer quoted. Still very noncommittal, doesn't want to vote seriously unless absolutely sure (according to him), didn't vote yesterday because he apparently disagreed with the case on mafiamann (orly?), and pressure votes Bogre.

In 323 he comments about the setup again and says that he's leaning more toward Bogre now even though his vote was apparently only for pressure and he had previously thought Coug and ckd were a scumpair.

In 331 he takes a middle ground against muffinhead and sort of says that his vote is meaningless, sort of a pressure vote like the two against him early D1.

I think muffinhead is

[most worthy of a vote]

, but I'll wait for him to claim.

I should have asked earlier: Why do you think that?

-----------------------

It's difficult to tell if it's lame play or if he's being deliberately wishy-washy IMO. From 318 on, though, it goes downhill.

And sorry for the long summaries; they're kind of for me considering I haven't been around in this game for the longest time.

Now someone else post, dangit.

[StrangerCoug]

I would, but I'm playing the game with muffinhead. He doesn't seem to want to come in here and claim so he can salvage himself.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: "The game" should be "the waiting game". God, I need to make friends with that preview button...

[Cass]

Yep, I'm also waiting on Muffin. Recent posts have me doubting this lynch, I want to hear his claim so I can decide where I stand.

[curiouskarmadog]

Mod: status on the muffin prod?

[Rishi]

Mod: status on the muffin prod?

Picked up.

[curiouskarmadog]

Gone between 08/29 until 08/31, Bachelor Party..

[Rhinox]

Mod: status on the muffin prod?

Picked up.

Damn... I was thinking about unvoting while muffin was being prodded so he wouldn't get lynched before a possible replacement came in. But now that he picked up his prod and yet still no post... that sucks. I feel I can't just let him off the hook now because that would be sanctioning his lurking/inactivity, however, I'm less confident in the possibility that he is actually scum. However, I still feel very strongly that having a useless anchor in the town is no good (whats the odds of us having a vig who could take out muffin tonight ) and the only thing we would lose by lynching muffin is a day and a number if muffin is town. However, why hasn't/won't muffin just try to save himself or claim? Thats what everyone seems to be waiting for.

Won't you feel stupid if you hammer and he turns out to be a cop? (For example, obv.) For that reason, I do ask you to wait until Muffin has been online at least (or gets replaced).

No, I wouldn't feel stupid, I would feel like we were screwed for having a flakey player as our cop, and I would feel at fault any more than I would blame whoever threw the hammer. Also, muffin said he was losing interest in the game. Power roles tend to retain interest because the player is excited to have something to do at night. Vanilla roles are the roles players typically lose interest in. Which means, I've just provided another reason to doubt that muffin is actually scum. :/

Simply leaving Muffin's case out there to be utilized at the proper moment without clearing it up here and now is a poor choice for us. What would I recommend we do instead? Wait for the claim in Muffinhead's case. He is at L-1 on what I believe I have demonstrated is a case that isn't as lock down as the confidence I'm seeing displayed would merit. So I would also like to hear once again who is still supporting that case in light of what I had to say. The purpose of that is to make people commit to their opinions.

I'm not actually sure how to take this statement. I can read two distinct messages in here, and they are slightly contradictory.

First message: Muffin is at L-1, but we can't just let him off the hook now because if he's town, the scum could use the "utility lynch" potential later in the game to their advantage. Even if I [ecto] don't think he's a locked down scum, he needs to claim and we may still need to follow through with the lynch depending on the claim.

Second message: I [ecto] do not agree that muffin is scum, and I want those who do support the lynch to justify and get locked into their decisions so they'll have to explain why they wanted so strongly to lynch a townie (if muffin is town).

I agree 100% with the first message (if I interpretted correctly). That is why I feel muffin needs to go if he's going to continue to play like this. The second part I don't so much agree with because it seems to be setting up attacks on those of us who want to lynch muffin if muffin turns up town. Its almost as if in one breath you're saying we can't let muffin off the hook (so the votes need to stay for now) but in the next breath you're saying you don't think there is a case strong enough to lynch (so we shouldn't be voting for muffin).

I'll stay in Iraq for 100 years if...err..

ooooh! good one. I take it you're not a McCain supporter (neither am I)

As for jonathan, I'm still worried about him as well, but I was actually starting to forget about him. (eeek!, I almost said "honestly, I was starting to forget about him" [/joke]) I do think jonathan deserves a bit more scrutiny than what he has been getting, but so far others have been painting themselves as better targets and jonathan has been avoiding heavy investigation by being less scummy (not protown though). I'm curious to hear jonathan respond to Vi-362. I think Vi brought up some very good points.

Summary: I'm less confident that muffin might be scum than I was a day or 2 ago, but I don't want to reward his lurking/inactivity by unvoting. But I also feel that muffin is at a "safe" L-1 in that I don't think anyone will hammer at this point until muffin gives a final defense and is group-discussed. I still feel muffin is useless and a liability in his current form, but I would welcome a replacement or muffin showing interest again as a best case scenario.

[jonathantan86]

I think muffinhead is, but I'll wait for him to claim.

Still waiting.

[Vi]

Still waiting.

I'm curious to hear jonathan respond to Vi-362. I think Vi brought up some very good points.

So are we.

Anyway, I'm about to leave shortly, so sorry if I can't be here over the next few days :\

[Vi]

EBWOP: That's Rhinox 369.

[muffinhead]

well i really dont think its fair to let someone replace me in this situation. I will admit ive had a crap game and have lost intrest to an extent.

Ok here goes. Im yossarian, A roving male of the group (aka cop). I dont know whther i can give to much of a description but it does note that im troubled whatever that means.

last night I targetted cass and got an innocent. But im not coming to any coclusions till I know that im sane.

Really didnt want to reveal that and disapoointed it came to that cause of my poor play and attempts to try lurk my way out. If you dont believe me then just give me another day, or let me be nked.

[Cass]

Hm, great...

I propose we let him live for now. That will at least improve the amount of information we gain from next night.

Muffin, why did you check me instead of anyone else?