Open 84 - Fire and Ice Mafia - Game Over!

[forbiddanlight]

First, Chubbs, you could get my gender right. It's annoying that people can't pay attention to the icons right next to someone's posts

Second:

So im doing a reread and there 3 people that really seem suspiscious to me. Those being forbiddenlight, orange penguin, and Snix. In the first 6 pages all three of you seemed to have no care for your votes. constantly changing between people.

So we no longer have the right to change our minds? My apologies for trying to actually...you know...think instead of tunnel vision.

and upon the lynching of Joubert, who ended up being town, he proclaimed;
"So, that's the HAMMAH!"

Um...because I thought Jou was scum, obviously. And was rather happy to see the hammer because I thought it would be a good start. I was wrong.

Also, when the Night 1 fire kill didnt go through:
"Also, what happened to the fire kill? "

Yeah, but you'll also notice I asked that because I wanted to know if they said who was targetted when a kill failed. I kinda expected to see a "Blank was burned but it failed" Or something. So that's why I was wondering.

My geuss: he's fire mafia and was wondering what the heck happened to the kill they sent in that night.

Good guess, but it's wrong. I will admit though, that's a fair conclusion given what you chose to present rather than the whole story

"HAmmer is at 7 guys, not 6. "
once again, paying close attention to the votes needed to lynch someone.

Well, excuse me if I notice things. How is it anti town to point out votes needed to lynch? It's a null tell at best. I could even argue it's pro town since I'm warning of the hammer and how close we are. I'm not going to argue that because I wasn't, I was merely making an observation, but I still say this is probably your weakest point.

"I don't plan to die. And on the offchance I do, I won't flip scum"
what makes you so sure you won't die? assuming you are town like you say then you actually have a good chance of dying seing as you can get lynched or killed by one of two mafias. now if you are one of those mafias, you wont vote for yourself and you cant get killed by the other mafia. Much better chances of surviving the night and it would make it the "offchance" that you could die as you say.

Because for once, I plan to play to survive as well as help town. So, I'm trying to play middle of the road effectiveness. Clearly it's working well. I'm suspected enough so the mafia would be foolish to kill me, and I think I can talk myself out of being lynched with enough effort.

Oh yeah, what did I said that in response to anyway? Just curious.

I know pretty much everyone has someone they think is suspiscious at this point for multiple reasons. The Snix, EL connection desserves attention as well as many other actions by various players. But there are still 4 Mafia out there.

Fair enough. A counter wagon helps prevent tunnel vision.

Vote: Forbiddanlight because I think he is one of them.

Hope to convince you of your folly before you make too many mistakes.

Chubbs, I'm glad you finally got around to making a case. I feel better about your alignment being pro town because that is actually a fairly built case (much better than say, ELs). Unfortunately (or fortunately rather), it's a little bit off for the reasons outlined above. I'd also appreciate it if you participated more than popping in with a post now and then.

---

Eldritch Lord (3): forbiddanlight, orangepenguin, armlx
forbiddanlight (2): Eldritch Lord, ChubbsMcLubbs
mik5 (1): Cephrir

Not Voting (3): mik5, Scigatt, Snix

[forbiddanlight]

EBWOP: Why are Snix and OP suspicious though, just the votes?

[ChubbsMcLubbs]

Sorry forbiddan about the gender thing. Didn't even notice you were a woman. My apologies.

I found Orange penguin suspiscious because of his voting patterns. which, at the beggining of the game seemed very careless and not thought out. However, there is one post by alabaska that , in my long reread, i thought was made by orangepenguin. So im not as suspiscious of him as my last post suggested. My bad OP

Snix throughout the whole game has seemed scummy. His interaction with those who, we now know, were townies. His voting patterns. When I read all 14 pages alot of his posts seemed somewhat scummy. nothing completely out there. but i didnt really notice a pro-town post. maybe its just the way i saw things. but thats that.

Now,

"So we no longer have the right to change our minds? My apologies for trying to actually...you know...think instead of tunnel vision."
Fair enough, i can understand changing your minds. It just seemed that you changed your votes very frequently often without thorough explanations. Avoiding being tunnel visioned is great. But changing your mind for small details or following someone else's thoughts/post could be just as bad in some cases.

So on page 4 your vote was counted as being on Rofl, then you told the mod he made a mistake and your vote was cast on me, when he told you you had to unvote:

"Ok, fine. unvote, vote Joubert

To be quite honest, I'm fine with lynching either of them. They've both seemed scummy. However...Chubbs is more likely to screw up and lead us to his scum buddies if he lives, whereas I give Joubert more credit than that. So, Joubert lynch if I have to, but I'm fine with the Chubbwagon. (I'll hammah it if I have to and Joubert wagon isn't gaining steam)"

Granted this was after rofls post outing out Joubert so it wasn't clear out of the water But still, it seemed like you finally flipped towards joubert once you saw rofl going for him as well.
Like i said changing your mind is great, and not to be tunnelvisioned. but you flip flopped so much it was somewhat ridiculous.

"Um...because I thought Jou was scum, obviously. And was rather happy to see the hammer because I thought it would be a good start. I was wrong. "
-fair enough

"Yeah, but you'll also notice I asked that because I wanted to know if they said who was targetted when a kill failed. I kinda expected to see a "Blank was burned but it failed" Or something. So that's why I was wondering. "
I geuss, I mean when i saw that the fire kill went through i didnt really care why. i was just glad another townie wasnt killed.you posting wondering what the hell happened just seemed weird to me. but we are different people with different reactions to certain things. its possible you were just curious.

"Good guess, but it's wrong. I will admit though, that's a fair conclusion given what you chose to present rather than the whole story "
-present the whole story? the whole point of the mafia is to deceive the townspeople into beleiving they are one of them. if when anyone was suspected of being mafia people presented the whole story with all the facts then it wouldnt do anything. mafia would throw in posts and reactions to make themselves seem like townies. i just picked the posts you made that made you look scummy to me. and left the posts that were townish out because no one knows whether your trying to deceive us or are truly being pro-town. If you would like to prove your case of being town by your posts rather than just refuting my post then please do.

"this is probably your weakest point. "
i agree it was.

- my vote for you isnt steadfast. if someone makes a good argument against someone that seems scummish then i very well may move if i deem that person to seem scummy.
Like i said there are other people i suspect and i know there are 4 mafias left. You just seemed like the most scummy through my eyes. and that may have changed given your defense.

Who do you think is scummy forbiddan?

[forbiddanlight]

Granted this was after rofls post outing out Joubert so it wasn't clear out of the water But still, it seemed like you finally flipped towards joubert once you saw rofl going for him as well.
Like i said changing your mind is great, and not to be tunnelvisioned. but you flip flopped so much it was somewhat ridiculous.

Not really. I in fact was the one that pointed out Jou's error after he brought up "rofl did the same thing!" And I explained why it wasn't here:

There's a difference. rofl is conditional on Chubbs flipping scum, and there is a weak connection between him and Eldritch (i.e, Eldritch is the only one defending Chubbs). Yours is like "rofl needs to die if Chubbs flips town" even though the only link is that rofl is pushing a Chubbs lynch, and several people are doing that. Chubbs being town would have no bearing on rofl's alignment. HOWEVER, I don't think rofl's course of action is correct, and would not support an Eldritch lynch based on just that. But, I also know that's rofl's style. I don't believe that's your style, but I can't be sure. Either way, rofl didn't do the same thing you did really.

.
And just because I was fine with either lynch doesn't mean I was flip flopping. I was going for the people I found scummiest. I liked my vote on you at the time I pointed that out, but as time started passing without Jou defending himself sufficiently, as well as the fact that his wagon had more traction, I felt Jou was a better play.

I guess, I mean when i saw that the fire kill went through i didnt really care why. i was just glad another townie wasnt killed.you posting wondering what the hell happened just seemed weird to me. but we are different people with different reactions to certain things. its possible you were just curious.

Fair enough. It could have been taken as the gloating scum tell, I understand.

i just picked the posts you made that made you look scummy to me. and left the posts that were townish out because no one knows whether your trying to deceive us or are truly being pro-town. If you would like to prove your case of being town by your posts rather than just refuting my post then please do.

Fair enough. But context matters in how someone looks scummy. Most of this was born in how you presented my reaction to the fire kill since it was more than what you showed.

Who do you think is scummy forbiddan?

EL is scummy, especially given his response under pressure. I feel Snix is more the victim of being followed by a scummy player, but I reread him in isolation so I could be wrong. I wish mik would post more but I don't precisely see Cephrir's case on him. It might gain credence if mik posts more and swings me either way. OP has a bit of "I agree syndrome" like EL, but it's not as strong. I would prefer he start posting his own reasoning, and if I HAD to vote someone not EL, I'd probably vote OP right now.

Really, it's hard right now to give a good clear who is scummy answer since the first two days flew by (hell, I didn't even get to reread Geddingsworth before the hammer), and second half the players aren't posting. For now, I'd pin EL and OP. If EL does flip scum (which I think he will), I could consider more Snixtastic scrutiny, but don't feel it would lead anywhere. I may change my mind as more people post.

[forbiddanlight]

EBWOP:

Snix throughout the whole game has seemed scummy. His interaction with those who, we now know, were townies. His voting patterns. When I read all 14 pages alot of his posts seemed somewhat scummy. nothing completely out there. but i didnt really notice a pro-town post. maybe its just the way i saw things. but thats that.

If you point out examples it's possible I may exercise the right to change my mind. I should probably reread him again looking closer.

[Snix]

Snix throughout the whole game has seemed scummy. His interaction with those who, we now know, were townies. His voting patterns. When I read all 14 pages alot of his posts seemed somewhat scummy. nothing completely out there. but i didnt really notice a pro-town post. maybe its just the way i saw things. but thats that.

That's kinda the way I play, find someone I think is scum and jump. I do hate meta arguements though so if you can find examples I might be able to beter explain myself.

IMO this town is too quiet and the only way to find scum in these games is to make them talk till they slip up. Which means I'm not really set on lynching EL just for following me. I want some sort of actual defense rather than him dissapearing.

[Eldritch Lord]

Ask and I will answer, Snix.

Orangepenguin, admitting you're a hypocrite doesn't help me trust your reasoning. It sounds like backpeddling to cover your own adherence to Standard Psychological Model, which states that people look for themselves in others in order to empathize (and thus implies that if you find something scummy in someone else, and are guilty of it yourself -- and then openly admit that the situations are the same-- it just makes you more scummy in my eyes).

Beyond that I can say that I do line up behind some of Chubb's points against Forbiddan.

Really, it's hard right now to give a good clear who is scummy answer since the first two days flew by (hell, I didn't even get to reread Geddingsworth before the hammer), and second half the players aren't posting. For now, I'd pin EL and OP. If EL does flip scum (which I think he will), I could consider more Snixtastic scrutiny, but don't feel it would lead anywhere. I may change my mind as more people post.

It is hard to get a clear idea of who is scummy when the first two days went by so quickly, and yet with only 15 pages of discussion on Page 3 and no conclusive evidence to go on you are talking about my flip as though I'm already lynched and then go on to set up a link to Snix for the next day despite having said:

I feel Snix is more the victim of being followed by a scummy player

So if you really think this then why should my being scum make him more scummy? I smell somebody setting up a mislynch.

[forbiddanlight]

So if you really think this then why should my being scum make him more scummy? I smell somebody setting up a mislynch.

I don't know! That's the problem! I don't know whether Snix is a victim or not. I kinda thought that, but I could see blatent following to give that impression. It's freaking WIFOM and I hate it. That's mostly why I said I'll look at Snix more closely pending how you flip but don't think it'll lead anywhere.

It is hard to get a clear idea of who is scummy when the first two days went by so quickly, and yet with only 15 pages of discussion on Page 3 and no conclusive evidence to go on you are talking about my flip as though I'm already lynched and then go on to set up a link to Snix for the next day despite having said:

To be fair, I haven't linked you guys inseperably yet. Half of it depends on your flip if it happens (It might, given how the day has gone so far), and the other half depends on how Snix further handles himself and how a closer look reflects on him in the context of all the flips.

[armlx]

Also, the Snix case is lamer because I don't think being followed as as good a tell as following; in order for it to apply to Snix both must be scum.

What about his vote of Chubbs?

[Cephrir]

True, that was pretty bad.

Chubbs, for the love of all things good and holy use quote tags. That was painful.

[armlx]

Chubbs, for the love of all things good and holy use quote tags. That was painful.

2nd.

[ChubbsMcLubbs]

Sorry, my bad

[forbiddanlight]

Sorry, my bad

No response to my defense?

[ChubbsMcLubbs]

I didn't think I had to respond to it. You put up your defense against my thoughts on you and the examples I gave where you seemed scummy to me. Plus i thought your last defense was towards EL's post against you. I didn't know I had to elaborate any more.

[ChubbsMcLubbs]

and the Sorry my bad was towards Cephrir for not using proper quotation

[forbiddanlight]

I didn't think I had to respond to it. You put up your defense against my thoughts on you and the examples I gave where you seemed scummy to me. Plus i thought your last defense was towards EL's post against you. I didn't know I had to elaborate any more.

Well, then are you ceding that I'm defended well? In which case you should probably unvote. Are you still thinking I'm scum? then counter my defense. If you need to consider, please, say so.

and the Sorry my bad was towards Cephrir for not using proper quotation

I know. I was merely quoting you because you posted without response.

[forbiddanlight]

So, I was kinda wondering. Are we still playing here or are we just planning to let the game stall until someone posts, which won't happen because there is nothing new to respond to?

[armlx]

I'm interested in playing, but I've said all I feel is relevant for the time being.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm interested in playing, but I've said all I feel is relevant for the time being.

Same here, but no one will post if no one is posting. It's the vicious cycle that causes mafia games to die.

[Snix]

That's kinda what I was talking about in my last post. Scum are just too content on being in the shadows and there isn't much reason for them not to.

I've made up my mind on EL; his last defence wasn't really much of an explanation then an attempt to deflect attention. Something I don't think town would do.

Vote: EL

[orangepenguin]

Still content with my vote.

[armlx]

I believe thats L-1.

[Cephrir]

*waits for EL*

[Eldritch Lord]

*waits for EL*

It's already been stated, there's no content to post on.

I have nothing to bring to the table that hasn't already been brought. It looks as though I'll be lynched so I hope that my flip will provide my fellow Town with the information they need to get a lynch right.

I'll comb over the thread a couple more times, but I don't think I'll find anything new as I have already done so several times.

Just to re-state, my suspicion lies in Forbiddan and Cephrir (only Cephrir because his playstyle this game has been very similar to one in which he deceived all of Town the entire game).

:\

[Cephrir]

Hey, I played much better in that game <.<

Also, not surprised.