Mini 644 - Meerkat Manor Mafia (Game Over!)

[curiouskarmadog]

muffin, are you trying to say I am not being honest about something?

what?

[Rhinox]

this is not the first time I have caught scum using this subconcious slip AND it is not the first time I have commented on this particular phrase or phrases of the like..."to be honest", "in all honesty", "Honestly I have never...", or my favorite "to tell the truth".

But dont take my word for it I can supply you with 2-3 games (they should be completed) that scum have used those terms..

That may be so, but it hardly proves that everytime that phrase is used, its coming from a scum. Also, I disagree that it is a slip, because its such a commenly used phrase that is meant to add emphasis and validity to a statement.

it is a slip...keep in mind I also caught Clock on a scum slip too...

Do tell, what was said slip? I read through your posts and I couldn't figure out what you're referring to. But I did find you expressing suprise and confusion after clock's death:

woah so what just happened?...so was Clock part of the mafia or something else? (confused)..like a SK maybe?

I am noting this attack or defense....there is no bandwagon on Muffin..just FoSes..the current vote leaders are coug and Bogre...so I am being oppertunistic by jumping off the leading bandwagon?

Well, you were voting for coug. Coug was getting overshadowed by Bogre and muffin as far as scumminess goes. I also never said there was a bandwagon. I said you saw an opportunity to throw your vote in early after muffin received 3 FoS's, so you couldn't be accused later on of jumping on his wagon if some of those FoS's started turning into votes.

Also, don't think I'm defending muffin here. I'm questioning you for your justification behind your vote.

Also you think my vote was just solely on that?...funny you didnt ask before you attacked/defended Muffin.

So what, we're suppose to read your mind? The only other time you mentioned muffin in your posts was when you questioned him for calling himself the most experienced way back at the beginning of the game. If you have more on muffin, please do tell.

unvote

for now, but still IGMEOY...

================================================

@ jonathen and Rhinox- What makes you think that me and bogre are scumpartners?

I never said that I definately thought the 2 of you were scum partners - I said that your post defending bogre was questionable and if bogre ends up being scum, I would consider that as evidence pointing to the two of you as scum partners. But that doesn't mean I've connected your fates together. This was the post I was referring to:

Im trying to understand the bogre case and i would like to request quotes of his scumminess if you want me to even consider joining the wagon. I would like to hear from bogre defend him self again.

First, you say you never saw any examples of Bogre being scummy and ask for quotes, even though they had already been provided by wolf and commented on by ecto and others since D2 began.

What I missed the first time is, why are you asking for Bogre to defend himself again if you don't even see a case for him to defend against? This is quite contradictory. Care to explain?

================================================

@ecto: you still here? What do you think about the latest conversations regarding bogre and muffin?

@Bogre: its been nearly a week since you've posted anything. if you think the accusations against you are unfair, you need to explain why. Not posting at all is a good way to get yourself lynched.

[curiouskarmadog]

Rhinox, I remember early in my mafia “career” someone attacked someone for using the “to be honest” phrase. I thought much like you did, and attacked that person (so I guess, I understand where you are coming from.) The person in question came up scum, so I made mental notes to see if scum typically use that phrase. Out of the 5 times I have seen it, 4 of the times they were scum…the 1 time, it was a townie that had faked claim (don’t even get me fucking started on that game)…so from my point of view, it is a tell.

Post 65 (in reference to clock)…he was asking questions that were utterly ridiculous, in an attempt to look more townie…not sure how you missed that when you pulled my other quotes.

In reference to Muffin..I didn’t like his early attempt to dominant this game with his “experience”, I don’t like his light participation on yesterday’s lynch, I didn’t like his vote of coug, and now his “honesty” comment. Now these things individually may not mean much (except the “honesty” comment)..but together are setting off alarms.

also, all this being said, I still dont like Coug's comment at the beginning of the day as well...it felt too defensive...now I dont think that being defensive is that big of a deal (I actually find that scum tend to push that as a "tell"), but the fact that he wasnt being attacked at the time, speaks volumes...

[Ectomancer]

Actually Rhinox, I'm watching, but since you asked if I am still here or not, yes. Im reviewing your actions towards the end of the day yesterday and am wondering.
You defended Clock rather strongly. I'm not questioning you because he turned up scum, I'm questioning because nobody should have had any idea of what his alignment would be. I know one scum tactic is to defend a townie against an attack, because when they turn up town, you of course were the wiser. It makes them much less likely to go against your "judgement" later.
Tell me why I should not believe this to be your motivation earlier. Clock turned up SK (we think), but as scum, you would have been just as likely to believe him town and would have acted accordingly.

As for Bogre, my general impression from reading was not favorable. I would want to re-read him before making a decision.
You asked some interesting questions of Muffin. I'd like to hear his answers. CKD also has some interesting comments concerning him.

[StrangerCoug]

I really want to yell at muffinhead and curiouskarmadog for engaging in a semantics argument; however, I am not going to question curiouskarmadog's experience with the honesty comment, especially given he's been around for almost a year longer than I have.

But yeah. curiouskarmadog's case against muffinhead, added to my case that he FoS'd me for not caring about D1 when in fact I only had one original thing to say about it (the rest already being discussed) and then twisting my reasons for voting Bogre into opportunism and using that to vote me, and then his hypocritical comment that he's not interested in the game when he accused me of not being interested in D1? Am I the only person who thinks something is wrong with this picture!?

Unvote: Bogre
Vote: muffinhead

[Cass]

While the case on Muffin seems strong, I feel that to unvote Bogre would be to reward his lurking. So I'd still prefer that lynch... But Muffin looks bad, and the 'honestly'-tell is interesting. It would be ideal if Bogre'd just speak up and give his opinion on the situation

[StrangerCoug]

Major HoS: Bogre

then. I still don't like him either.

[muffinhead]

@ckd- you said i wasnt telling the truth then you say this after voting me which means you arnt telling the truth either

Also you think my vote was just solely on that?...funny you didnt ask before you attacked/defended Muffin.

I really want to yell at muffinhead and curiouskarmadog for engaging in a semantics argument; however, I am not going to question curiouskarmadog's experience with the honesty comment, especially given he's been around for almost a year longer than I have.

But yeah. curiouskarmadog's case against muffinhead, added to my case that he FoS'd me for not caring about D1 when in fact I only had one original thing to say about it (the rest already being discussed) and then twisting my reasons for voting Bogre into opportunism and using that to vote me, and then his hypocritical comment that he's not interested in the game when he accused me of not being interested in D1? Am I the only person who thinks something is wrong with this picture!?

Unvote: Bogre
Vote: muffinhead

@coug- where did i say that you are not intrested in the game and what is wrong with that anyways? then you still hos bogre even though you just unvoted him? thats why my vote is on you still.

@ jonathen and Rhinox- What makes you think that me and bogre are scumpartners?

I never said that I definately thought the 2 of you were scum partners - I said that your post defending bogre was questionable and if bogre ends up being scum, I would consider that as evidence pointing to the two of you as scum partners. But that doesn't mean I've connected your fates together. This was the post I was referring to:

Im trying to understand the bogre case and i would like to request quotes of his scumminess if you want me to even consider joining the wagon. I would like to hear from bogre defend him self again.

First, you say you never saw any examples of Bogre being scummy and ask for quotes, even though they had already been provided by wolf and commented on by ecto and others since D2 began.

What I missed the first time is, why are you asking for Bogre to defend himself again if you don't even see a case for him to defend against? This is quite contradictory. Care to explain?

.

I never said that i didnt think bogre was scummy. I said i dont understand the cases against him. In fact its quite annoying that he hasnt posted in ages. It seemed that no one liked his defence the orginal time so im asking him to do it again.

While the case on Muffin seems strong, I feel that to unvote Bogre would be to reward his lurking. So I'd still prefer that lynch... But Muffin looks bad, and the 'honestly'-tell is interesting. It would be ideal if Bogre'd just speak up and give his opinion on the situation

Also cass explain what ive done thats scummy besides the fact that i said "honest" since that is a load of rubbish and an incorrect theory because im town. Also dont use the fact that i dont understand the bogre case.

Now as a summary i am losing intrest in this game and this will most likly be my last game on ms while I have a break. Well actully i will mod a game then leave as thats what ive always wanted to do. Now i would like to go out in fassion with a win which is why i havnt decided to be replaced. But when you just dont have that intrest in the game its hard to find scum and help so if im lurking and looking scummy then I do apologies for letting the town down but it still means im here and I will help to the best that i can do.

[jonathantan86]

@ jonathen and Rhinox- What makes you think that me and bogre are scumpartners?

There's a possibility bogre is scum, and you're asking for clarification on the bogre case even though somebody has already posted about that a few posts up.

About ckd: In the beginning he said that he would vote SC if clock "flips scum", but changed his mind after clock died. (If he and SC form a scum-pair, he might have confidently said that because he "knew" that clock would turn out innocent.) Then he voted SC again, but changed his mind again because of muffinhead's "to be all honest". This might be just to distract his shift of vote.

Rhinox and Ectomancer do not strike me either way.

[Cass]

Also cass explain what ive done thats scummy besides the fact that i said "honest" since that is a load of rubbish and an incorrect theory because im town. Also dont use the fact that I dont understand the bogre case.

Yeah, sorry, but those things are pretty central to the case on you.
CKD explained quite well why he thinks 'hoestly' is a scumtell - it seems very unlikely to me that he is lying. If you flip town, that would look ugly for him. The Bogre case has been explained to you in very nice, clear short posts, two or three times already. So your refusal to respond to that with anything more than 'I don't get the case' does not look good at all. It makes me think you're his buddy.

Major FoS: Muffin

Keeping my vote on Bogre, for reasons I've already stated. Though I'll probably hammer Muffin if it comes to that.

[Rishi]

Vote Count

Bogre – 2 (wolframnhart, Cass)
muffinhead -2 (curiouskarmadog, StrangerCoug)
StrangerCoug – 1 (muffinhead)

Not voting: Ectomancer, jonathantan86, Bogre, Rhinox

With 9 alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch.

Bogre has picked up his prod. Will give him a couple more days to post before seeking replacement.

[curiouskarmadog]

About ckd: In the beginning he said that he would vote SC if clock "flips scum", but changed his mind after clock died. (If he and SC form a scum-pair, he might have confidently said that because he "knew" that clock would turn out innocent.) Then he voted SC again, but changed his mind again because of muffinhead's "to be all honest". This might be just to distract his shift of vote.

Clock didnt flip mafia which is what I meant and was obvious. I didnt vote him again, because I didnt see a connection. I have stated twice that I feel that Coug is scummy today for his comments today. What I find interesting is that you are commenting on possible links but not really commenting on any of the cases or scummy actions in the present. Your thoughts on Bog, Muffin, or Coug?

why are you not voting for anyone? If you think that Coug and I might be a scum pair, why are you not voting for us?....I also note that you didnt vote anyone yesterday..please explain


@muffin, I have no clue what the hell you are talking about...I am not telling the truth because of what? Nice silly comeback.

[StrangerCoug]

@coug- where did i say that you are not intrested in the game and what is wrong with that anyways?

That's twisting what I said about you just a tad, but here it is anyway:

Is that all you have to say coug? After all that happens on day one that is what you have to say? you seem to have no care in what happened one day one and thats why i will.

Then you posted this, which combined with the above post looks hypocritical:

To be all honest i think im beginning to lose intrest in this game so I will try to keep up as much as posible and try not to e a lurker as I personally hate them

You don't care about something you're not interested in, now do you?

then you still hos bogre even though you just unvoted him? thats why my vote is on you still.

Just because I unvoted somebody does not clear them from my suspicion. I simply believe you're the better play at the moment than Bogre.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox, I remember early in my mafia “career” someone attacked someone for using the “to be honest” phrase. I thought much like you did, and attacked that person (so I guess, I understand where you are coming from.) The person in question came up scum, so I made mental notes to see if scum typically use that phrase. Out of the 5 times I have seen it, 4 of the times they were scum…the 1 time, it was a townie that had faked claim (don’t even get me fucking started on that game)…so from my point of view, it is a tell.

ok... I don't have the experience like you do, but I can see why you would call it a tell. Rest assured, every future game I play I will be looking to see who uses that phrase and they're allignment. Maybe I'll come to view it as a legitimate tell, or maybe not. But I no longer think its a scummy move to attack muffin for that.

Post 65 (in reference to clock)…he was asking questions that were utterly ridiculous, in an attempt to look more townie…not sure how you missed that when you pulled my other quotes.

Oh... well I did see that, but you said you caught clock on a "slip". Maybe you meant tell. Anyways, yeah I did see that, I just didn't consider it a slip.

@Muffin:

Now as a summary i am losing intrest in this game and this will most likly be my last game on ms while I have a break. Well actully i will mod a game then leave as thats what ive always wanted to do. Now i would like to go out in fassion with a win which is why i havnt decided to be replaced. But when you just dont have that intrest in the game its hard to find scum and help so if im lurking and looking scummy then I do apologies for letting the town down but it still means im here and I will help to the best that i can do.

If you're not interested in playing the game or trying to catch scum, then as far as I'm concerned your a useless liability to my win condition. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I want to win to, and I don't want someone in my town who doesn't care about the game.

Vote: Muffin

Even if you really are a townie, I don't think we'll lose anything by your death. Also, you never answered my question as to what you think Bogre should defend himself against if you never saw a case against him.

@ecto:

You defended Clock rather strongly. I'm not questioning you because he turned up scum, I'm questioning because nobody should have had any idea of what his alignment would be. I know one scum tactic is to defend a townie against an attack, because when they turn up town, you of course were the wiser. It makes them much less likely to go against your "judgement" later.
Tell me why I should not believe this to be your motivation earlier. Clock turned up SK (we think), but as scum, you would have been just as likely to believe him town and would have acted accordingly.

First let me say that I have a tendency to go after questionable accusations, and I realize that is usually viewed as defending the player that was accused. I didn't like how first you sided with clock to vote mafiamann and then after mafia's claim turned around to attack clock. You explained why you did and I understand now, and I won't hold it against you if you think i am scummy for defending clock.

What I will say is that I don't think defending a player is always scummy, especially if i had a good reason to do so (which I think I did at the time). Your accusation against me is that defending a player is always scummy, because either I was defending my scum partner if clock was scum, or I was defending (who I thought was) a townie in order to give myself credibility. Of course, I could have avoided this situation by not saying anything at all, but is it really fair to put me in a position where its scummy for me to have defended clock regardless of whatever his role could have been?

Another thing to consider is that if I wanted to defend a townie to make myself look good, wouldn't it have been better for me to defend Mafiamann since he was already going down fast? Its a little WIFOMish, but I don't see why defending clock because I think he's town to make myself look good does me any good if I didn't know when or if he was going to die, so I could point out "look I was defending a townie, I told you so". I think it would lose its affect if he would have died 3 days from now, and I think me saying "look I'm town because I defended a townie D2" 3 days from now would probably get me lynched. But of course, this defense goes out the window if you assume I had killing powers and planned on killing clock last night. *sigh*

I guess what you have to decide is do you think I was really trying that type of gambit, or do you think its more likely I was questioning your justification for your accusations on clock? Another thing I hope makes me look a little better is that I just did the same thing regarding CKD and muffinhead, and that was before you even questioned me. I hope that goes to show that it is just my style of play to go after someone when I think they're using bad, weak, or hypocrital cases to justify an argument or vote.


Also, as a general notice:

I'm going to be out of town until monday and won't be able to post again until I get back Monday afternoon.

[wolframnhart]

Ok I am looking back at Muffin now because something hasn't sat right with me about his posts.

unvote

Major FoS Bogre

I still think Bogre is scum, but with him not posting atm I am going to focus my attention on who his scum partner might be.

After Muffin Fosed me and asked me what points I thought were good on one of Ectos posts, I posted it, along with reasons why they apply to why i thought Bogre was scum, and he said:

ok cheers wolf, i feel much better about you and to a certain extent ecto. Still would like to hear from him though.

I would also like to hear from bogre who he thinks is scum.

Then he posts:

Im trying to understand the bogre case and i would like to request quotes of his scumminess if you want me to even consider joining the wagon. I would like to hear from bogre defend him self again.
To be all honest i think im beginning to lose intrest in this game so I will try to keep up as much as posible and try not to e a lurker as I personally hate them

I shortened the post. In here he is trying to understand a case i have already explained for him, and yet he needs more explanation, and wants Bogre to defend himself (which is fair enough because Bogre should try and do this). He also goes along saying he is loosing interest in the game, but I believe that with asking Bogre in two posts to defend himself, and with this one also saying he is loosing interest, that it means his scum partner is not here to help out and Muffin is feeling sore from it.

Muffin hasn't really contributed much, in fact his disappearing act is similar to Bogres. I agree that the "to be honest" scum tell is a little lost on me because I have not seen it before, but that doesn't mean I will discount it.

Also:

But when you just dont have that intrest in the game its hard to find scum and help so if im lurking and looking scummy then I do apologies for letting the town down but it still means im here and I will help to the best that i can do.

If you aren't interested but in a way you are just enough that you want to win, but not really contribute and make posts infrequently, then be replaced. If we are right and Muffinhead is indeed scum, I would think he is trying hard to buy his scum partner Bogre sometime, because Muffin had also said he would post on Bogre but has yet to do that too.

Vote Muffinhead

[Ectomancer]

That was a good answer directed to me. I did take exception with the following statement from the previous paragraph because it is inherently untrue:

Even if you really are a townie, I don't think we'll lose anything by your death.

Of course we lose something. This is a game of numbers, and any that we lose from our column is a bad deal for us.

[StrangerCoug]

Claim or die, muffinhead.

[Cass]

Claim or die, muffinhead.

QFT. Based on the claim, I'll decide if I want to hammer.

@Bogre: show up, dammit! We need to hear your opinion on Muffin, your defense of yourself and some general involvement in the game. At this rate, you're going to be tomorrow's lynch - but if you'd only post, you could easily save yourself. (Assuming you're town, of course. If you're scum, keep lurking .)

[jonathantan86]

Clock didnt flip mafia which is what I meant and was obvious. I didnt vote him again, because I didnt see a connection. I have stated twice that I feel that Coug is scummy today for his comments today. What I find interesting is that you are commenting on possible links but not really commenting on any of the cases or scummy actions in the present. Your thoughts on Bog, Muffin, or Coug?

why are you not voting for anyone? If you think that Coug and I might be a scum pair, why are you not voting for us?....I also note that you didnt vote anyone yesterday..please explain

Ah...okay. I still think that there's the possibility that the predators know each other (see my earlier post), so I am evaluating what people say based on that. I have commented on possible links, and I have also commented on Bogre, Muffin and Coug in an earlier post (well, I did not say much about Bogre and Coug except that I agree with the cases on them).

I didn't vote for anyone because I don't see any clear choices of suspects (I have opinions but I don't think any of them are conclusive). However, I see now that Bogre only has two votes so I will:

Vote: Bogre

This is just for pressure, not planning to lynch just yet. Hopefully he will come back and post.

I did not vote anyone yesterday for the same reasons, and also because everyone seemed to be on MM's case which I disagreed with.

[Ectomancer]

I wanted to comment on your belief that predators know each other. Earlier I went through this line of reasoning. If they know each other, then we likely have 2 scum groups of 2. After thinking on it, I believe that a 2 scum 1 SK in a 12 player game is more likely. 4 scum, even in 2 groups, is a bit much without stacking town with roles other than vanilla. Given that the 2 scenarios lead to different lines of investigation, I submit that we stick primarily to the most likely (2 scum, 1 SK) until we either uncover another predator by scum hunting, or we eliminate the Commandoes.

[StrangerCoug]

I wanted to comment on your belief that predators know each other. Earlier I went through this line of reasoning. If they know each other, then we likely have 2 scum groups of 2. After thinking on it, I believe that a 2 scum 1 SK in a 12 player game is more likely. 4 scum, even in 2 groups, is a bit much without stacking town with roles other than vanilla. Given that the 2 scenarios lead to different lines of investigation, I submit that we stick primarily to the most likely (2 scum, 1 SK) until we either uncover another predator by scum hunting, or we eliminate the Commandoes.

This makes sense, actually. I highly doubt two scum and two serial killers, whether the SK's know each other or not, as it doesn't explain an awful lot about this game, particularly the lack of deaths Night 1 (and since I brought the lack of deaths up, the same applies to two doctors in a mini unless one of them has sanity issues).

[curiouskarmadog]

jon, I thought you were pushing that Coug and I were a scum pair, why the Bog vote?

[Rishi]

Looking for a replacement for Bogre. If he comes back before I find a replacement, then he can have the spot back.

[jonathantan86]

I wanted to comment on your belief that predators know each other. Earlier I went through this line of reasoning. If they know each other, then we likely have 2 scum groups of 2. After thinking on it, I believe that a 2 scum 1 SK in a 12 player game is more likely. 4 scum, even in 2 groups, is a bit much without stacking town with roles other than vanilla. Given that the 2 scenarios lead to different lines of investigation, I submit that we stick primarily to the most likely (2 scum, 1 SK) until we either uncover another predator by scum hunting, or we eliminate the Commandoes.

My basis for thinking there is more than one SK is the flavour text saying that there are predators (with an s) and everything else is just conjecture from that.

jon, I thought you were pushing that Coug and I were a scum pair, why the Bog vote?

I'm just considering that possibility. I think the case on bogre is better than the case on you.

[curiouskarmadog]

and my case on muffin?..I know you stated you have addressed muffin before..but I would like to hear it again.