Mini Normal 2174 | Korean Pop Music | Mafia Wins!

[Glitch]

Well, on my part it was just this relentless stream of excellent well argued points that could not more clearly have come from a town-sided player. I mean I'm sure for anybody reading it...it must have been like 'woah this guy couldn't be more town', and then I'd post another post and it'd be like 'shiiiit I didn't even know it was possible for a player to be that obviously aligned with the town, this is amazing, what a great player'.

Lmao. Its pretty rare I literally laugh out loud but this made me. This was great xD

@Staarling: summary of our 1v1: it was basically just a semi-well articulated bitchslapping fest where we continued to go back and forth about how each others strategy is shit. Then once we both calmed our asses down we considered each others points and learned a lot about each other and stopped SRing each other so hard.

[Glitch]

Until I can get back to this game later tonight:
VOTE: Derp
My vote can camp there until I get more time for a more serious vote and that slot should be PL'd anyway.

[Flubbernugget]

If it helps, I've dropped that theory. I have more equity in noraa scum now though. Keita 230 is right on the ball with how I am feeling there.

hmmmm. maybe a look through noraa's iso is needed.

[Flubbernugget]

1) If you're not being cooperative, then what are you doing? This is mafia. This is a game where you need to figure out if X, Y and Z are scum and then get A, B, C, D, and E to vote for X, Y and Z. If you find X, Y and Z but Y is also making A through E think you are scum, you've effectively done nothing. I honestly smell a lot of miselim bait on your wagon which is why I am super apprehensive on my vote on you. However, you are not helpful to town at the moment.

2) Why does that make Glitch scum? Because they're wrong? Isn't that the exact same point that you're making? Giving up isn't exactly a towntell in anyone's book FYI.

Everybody knows that this is very early on in the game where little of any significance happens, so if somebody is starting to talk to me about how I haven't done reams and reams of analysis yet, then that is suspect because everybody knows that nobody's reads are massively serious right now necessarily. If something happens that I think is interesting then I'll pick up on it, and as it happens I think that nothing relevant has happened so far in this game other than I think that Flubbernugget is more likely to be town, and that it's unlikely that all of the other players who jumped on voting me are town too.

Glitch's questions are just...I don't know how to explain but this isn't how you get information out of people. Watch a couple of episodes of Columbo or something to see how it's done properly. His questions are very much putting words in my mouth, bombarding me with stuff left right and centre, trying to catch me out. If you're questioning somebody with the intention of making them slip up, like you've already decided what the answers are going to be as he obviously has done, then the person will slip up, it's pointless, it's a waste of time. Like he's certain his technique works, I'll flip town, and he'll just carry on game after game doing the exact same thing without ever evaluating where he made a mistake.

He's already said to me 'if you were town you would have done this instead'. So if he already knows everything about what I would do in a given situation and I have already breached that, then what possible reason would there be to respond to his points further? Then there's all this theatrical stuff about 'oh this should be the definition of omgus on the wiki'. If he thinks something I've said is 'contrived' then there's nothing I can do about that other than say 'no it wasn't'. Saying something is 'contrived' is nothing, it's not an argument, it's just a person looking at a post and going 'I don't like the look of this because of a gut feeling', how could you possibly argue that further? He says that I am 'panicky' and 'feel pressured' which again, I can say 'I'm clearly not' and then we're at a stalemate. You can't reason with a person if that's the extent of their arguments.

And again, with your question 'why does that make him scum?', I never said it did, so again that's a leading question trying to paint is as though I made a bad argument as to him being mafia when I never made such an argument at all. Like I say, his original question against Noraa was unreasonable, I thought that made him slightly more likely to be mafia than anybody else at that point given that I have no other reads, hence my vote is on him for the time being. It's not like a strong read, I don't care about it very much, but apparently if I don't vote for anybody then everybody complains about that too. As for the motivations for his arguing against me, that could go either way so I wouldn't present any of that as being in favour of him being mafia. I'm just saying that either way, nobody should be looking at his arguments against me and thinking 'yeah they're good arguments we should eliminate Trendall'.

Nothing I have done is tantamount to 'giving up' and I couldn't care less what is and isn't a 'towntell' lol.

hmmm. I think i need to look through glitch/trendall's dual ISO too.

ugh. effort.

[Flubbernugget]

I think Trendall is a townie because that's a looooooot of words and I think it's hard for mafia to write so much right now, because we don't any good information

meh. it's rambly but there's some stuff in there.

[Flubbernugget]

So people don't want to skip today? Another problem is that sometimes the longer you play the more people will claim and mafia and serial killer will be able to kill all of the good roles. but if we skip they'll have no clue who it is and those roles can get us some goodies for the next day

I don't mean to be rude here but your next game should be the newbie queue.

:<

there's no shame in hitting up the newbie queue and it doesn't mean you're bad or anything like that. It's just to help get acclimated to the way games are normally played on MS and the philosophy behind them

[Flubbernugget]

I'm only up to page 11 but so far there seems to be a dynamic where glitch does the questioning and trendall does the answering and I'm not the most fond of it

[Noraa]

If it helps, I've dropped that theory. I have more equity in noraa scum now though. Keita 230 is right on the ball with how I am feeling there.

hmmmm. maybe a look through noraa's iso is needed.

ooo I didn't actually see Hiraki said this. interesting. I'd be really interested to hear a follow up post on that.

[Noraa]

A few things to note so far into the game:
1) I dont have a reads list yet. I'll try to get one soon but nothings clicking with me well enough yet :<
2) Plus is being awfully quiet. I have a terrible time trying to sort this slot and I literally almost always end up SRing this slot. Like legit last time I was in a game with him, I was scum and I legit for a second was like gosh plus is really sus. But seriously he is NEVER this quiet. I have super duper conflicting feelings about plus bc I straight up have never read him right before but I'd like to hear him respond to this as well as other people's opinions on Plus this game. Dont just look at this game tho. Def check out some meta bc he tends to always be a lil scummy and I have a hard time determining how scummy does he have to act for me to know he legitimately rolled scum bc I really can't tell.
3) aggressiveness idk if its normal for glitch cuz in the large theme that just ended with glitch, I do not think he tunneled me this hard. Like I was annoyed but I felt trendall was really frustrated at one point.
4) Do not be fooled by Bob's towniness. He fooled me to hell and back in Random facts. I take it that he just has a really towny playstyle but I haven't found what exactly can determine whether or not he is scum.
5) that's all for today. thanks for coming to my ted talk

[Noraa]

4) I should clarify. My point is do not give a town pass that easily cuz it is not outside of his scum range at all.

[PlusJOYED]

Plus is being awfully quiet. I have a terrible time trying to sort this slot and I literally almost always end up SRing this slot. Like legit last time I was in a game with him, I was scum and I legit for a second was like gosh plus is really sus. But seriously he is NEVER this quiet. I have super duper conflicting feelings about plus bc I straight up have never read him right before but I'd like to hear him respond to this as well as other people's opinions on Plus this game. Dont just look at this game tho. Def check out some meta bc he tends to always be a lil scummy and I have a hard time determining how scummy does he have to act for me to know he legitimately rolled scum bc I really can't tell.

how do you manage to make up some reason to SR me every time

[Noraa]

I literally dont even. U just always seem so scummy. I try so hard to understand that your play style is scummy but my scum radar always pings.

[nopointinactingup]

This is a prod dodge. It seems like a lot of content has been generated, I'm taking a close look in 4 hours

[bob3141]

will try and catch up later

[PlusJOYED]

This is a prod dodge. It seems like a lot of content has been generated, I'm taking a close look in 4 hours

13 pages in 3 days is rookie numbers. Last mini we had like a 150+ page day 1.

[Glitch]

Re: Noraa - I really hated playing in The Trials Large. I didn't do my due diligence before signing up and the mechanics of that game ruined it for me. I really hated playing it and as you can see by the end it was such a low priority to me I didn't even care if we won anymore. I've come to learn I do not enjoy theme games most of the time and need to stick to normals.

In all of my normals though I tunnel hard. My last one was Large 229 and D1 I had a death tunnel on Nero Cain. We were both town and I got ten votes to put me at L1 for it. Me tunneling hard apparently comes off as scummy to a lot of people but it's perfectly within my town meta.

[Glitch]

Hiraki and Keita have great reads.
Plusjoyed has pinged me a little bittle.
Noraa is between null and a gentle SL.
Trendall is TL.
Flubber is TL.

More coming later. Got other games that need my attention.

[nopointinactingup]

Nora, doing stupid things is fine but having un-genuine reactions when asked about said stupid things is pretty scummy. Also not sure why you're white-knighting Trendall here after a whole lot of fluff postings.

I'd like to take all the credit for moving us out of RVS thank you very much.
All jokes aside, I think I have fluffed but I also think I have posted lots of game advancing(even if only a little ) content

What game advancing contents are you talking about .. I've yet to seen you post anything substantial despite all the fluff and you haven't moved your vote at all from RVS.

Yes which there is nothing wrong with.

There is nothing wrong with it except for the high likelihood that you made it up on the spot. At the very least it's a bit weird and defensive.

Unless they didn’t actually care and just wanted to cast suspicion on me, I guess.

Do you consider it AI to cast suspicion on players in the first 5 pages without any reason to suspect them?

Can you clarify AI? Sorry, old-fashioned player here.
Edit: Got it

@Thoughts about shits and gigglez at the beginning: I'd keep a note to myself that the 3 participants is leaning town based on the conversation. I also think it's a townish sign to start the first wagon quickly since scum benefit from stalling the game. Noraa, Gitch, Plus can be town for now.

Weird.

This seems defensive. Keeping knowledge and even reads and opinions secret are bad for town and good for scum.

The post was clearly in jest - you even said it yourself - "thoughts about shits and gigglez". This is weak and weird.

Is there any particular aspect of it you find weak and weird? The logic of your post eludes me.

Which part of Nora's post do you agree with?

Why is this important? What produces town to say that they like X part and scum to say they have Y part?

It's important because I am trying to gauge whether Trendall's vote on Glitch was because Trendall genuinely thought Glitch was scum or because he was trying to start an opportunistic counter wagon to save himself. When people sheep votes without adding to the evidence or thoughts behind their vote, it's generally not a town sign.

Are you saying that you only random vote as scum? That would be a pretty lame way to play.

No, I've only drawn a mafia sided role on this site once. And in that game I never placed a random vote at the start of the game. Why would I ever do what you're suggesting?

Do you see my point Trendall? From my perspective, the only time you were scum you didn't place a random vote and in this game you didn't place a random vote PLUS making up a strange reason for not placing that vote.

@Thoughts about shits and gigglez at the beginning: I'd keep a note to myself that the 3 participants is leaning town based on the conversation. I also think it's a townish sign to start the first wagon quickly since scum benefit from stalling the game. Noraa, Gitch, Plus can be town for now.

Now, as much as your pocket is enticing, I'm gonna have to pass.
What makes you think scum wouldn't participate in shits and gigglez early on? I do agree about the bob wagon though.

In my experience, scum usually stay behind the scene, stall the game and make town lynch randomly. That being said, I only think the shit and giggles are slight town sign not overwhelming.

I feel that this is a little bit contrived.

It feels more like you thought of this reason when asked.

Have you done this in any of your previous town games?

Great point here; I hadn't really figured out how to put that into words but I think this is accurate. I'm just trying to sort between whether Trendall's play is newbish, playstyle, or AI.

[/quote]

I don't think Trendall is new he has loads of games. It is fair to say that he does abstain from RV in a lot of his games as town and scum, so I don't see why he has to shut down as town when suspicion was thrown his way.
Edit: After reading through his wall of post, I suppose it is possible that Trendall was just a super defensive town player. Scum is slightly more likely to make things up under pressure but it would be an overstatement to say town never does this.

If we're struggling to get serious stuff going, how about we get no one today and try on the next day? We'll have a night of information then to work things out VOTE: Skip?

I don't think this is a good idea. If we lynch scum it's great. If we mislynch at the very least we have some information. NL is not good.

But also, glitch, don't tunnel 9 pages in...
its just not a good idea imo and it feels bad being tunneled early on.

Isn't this the point though. Tunneling helps bring out emotions and thoughts that are difficult to hide. Then town can analyze them as a collective to distinguish between town and scum. I'm little bit harsh here but if you feel personally offended then mafia might not be a great game for you.

If he truly thought I were scum, he would engage me, ask me question, poke around, and then case me. But he doesn't.

So this is the crux of the problem for me, the guy's way of playing this game is going 'mafia act like this, and town act like this', and in reality people act in all different ways irrespective of their alignment due to personality styles and play styles and whatever else. So I know already, if I don't 'act right', he's going to think I'm mafia, and if I do make any attempt to 'act right' he'll accuse me of contriving reasons and so forth, he's completely inconsistent with what he wants from me. So I'm just stuck here, aren't I? There's nothing I can do about it other than hope that if I get lynched the other players in the game are capable of interpreting what's happened.

So did you make an attempt to "act right" when you made that post about not RV-ing to bring up discussion? Honestly I can think of ways you could have done that as town or scum so shutting down and refusing to communicate only cause people to suspect you more.

Why does it feel like Trendall and Noraa are both scum?
If Trendall flips scum I would be inclined to vote Noraa next.

we can maybe be friends actually, could u elaborate on this?

It seems to me Noraa is trying really hard to strike a balance between deflecting the Trendall accusations without seeming like they are buddied. See post 198.

I agree with this. I think post 198 even indicate Nora scum even in the case Trendall is town. It's just very weird to white-knight someone as if you knew their alignment.

@Wall of text between Glitch and Trendall: This actually makes me feel a little better about Trendall since his post does seem emotionally coherent. For now I feel the trendall wagon has been productive.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Nora
Crimes include fluff posting, white-knighting for no reason and constant emotional appeal.

Well, on my part it was just this relentless stream of excellent well argued points that could not more clearly have come from a town-sided player. I mean I'm sure for anybody reading it...it must have been like 'woah this guy couldn't be more town', and then I'd post another post and it'd be like 'shiiiit I didn't even know it was

possible

for a player to be that obviously aligned with the town, this is amazing, what a great player'.

Glitch was pretty towny too. I'm not sure whether he thinks I'm town or mafia at this point or how confident he is about anything, but he did unvote me because I guess he felt like he got everything he needed to from that avenue of inquiry for now.

So basically at this point you have a very strong town read on me and a fairly confident town read on Glitch too.

Then again this post feels super odd, like a gloat when you've managed to stave off pressure as scum.

This is a prod dodge. It seems like a lot of content has been generated, I'm taking a close look in 4 hours

13 pages in 3 days is rookie numbers. Last mini we had like a 150+ page day 1.

LOL xD What happened to the meta. In my days, people get lynched for posting random bs

[Noraa]

^spoil walls please
I think I want my vote on glitch for now. The tunneling, tho not abnormal in mafia, normally comes from scum this early in a game. And it leading nowhere kinda tells me one of them is likely scum :/
TvT's get uglyVOTE: glitch

[nopointinactingup]

Why would scum necessarily tunnel early in the game instead of coasting by? And I'm not sure you realized but you voted Glitch AFTER he stopped tunneling?!

[Noraa]

Yeah, my rvs vote was on glitch. I just voted again for emphasis but regardless, my wifi's a bit bad but I'll reply in a hot sec once I go fix that.

[Glitch]

I don't think Trendall is new he has loads of games.

Sure and I didn't mean to insinuate that. Acting newbish doesn't mean you're new. Experienced players can still act newbish.

[Glitch]

@Wall of text between Glitch and Trendall: This actually makes me feel a little better about Trendall since his post does seem emotionally coherent. For now I feel the trendall wagon has been productive.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Nora
Crimes include fluff posting, white-knighting for no reason and constant emotional appeal.

I feel the same way about the Trendall wagon. I think it was productive. Let's do it on Noraa now. VOTE: Noraa
Can someone else head this one up though?... that was a hella lot of effort yesterday LOL

[Glitch]

^spoil walls please
I think I want my vote on glitch for now. The tunneling, tho not abnormal in mafia, normally comes from scum this early in a game. And it leading nowhere kinda tells me one of them is likely scum :/
TvT's get uglyVOTE: glitch

Hadn't seen this when I voted above but it makes me feel better about my vote because voting against me after that 1v1 with Trendall is just a really bad move.

[Noraa]

Theres a ton of different play styles on this site and mine, if you dont mind some self meta, is very impulsive and often more emotionally than logically driven. My meta shows it quite clearly(I ..... shot two prs last time I was vig but dont worry I'm not vig here so all will be fine with regards to that). A lot of people dislike that I WK'ed Trendall. Yeah, I do butt into other's business and overreact over things like this cuz I personally know that if I get tunneled day 1, legit regardless of my alignment, I am 90% dying that day. I react so shit to pressure it's not even funny. And the moment I felt like Trendall was getting legit upset(like I do when getting tunneled), I was like ok no like no this is not ok. I still stand by this and will defend anyone that is put in a situation where I believe regardless of alignment, they will react badly. I think I'm happy it solved itself except normally tunneling that results in mutual TRs are suuuuper sketch. I dont think that normally happens in TvTs bc normally both are confident and stubborn af and then just death tunnel each other(that's kinda what happened the one time I was tunneled really hard :/)

I think I need to read over that 1v1(Got lazy) and try to determine which is scum bc personally I believe TvTs where both sides get genuinely upset generally result in heavy tunneling from both sides(correct me if I'm wrong)

I think for a quick reads list:
I think no point is efforting too much day 1 if scum. I think a town lean is 100% appropriate cuz I generally dont see scum effort walls this early in the game.
Plus, I've decided is just town. Yeah .. I flip flopped a few but overall, I believe he is frustrated that I have always sussed him pretty hard and scum would be more panicked than annoyed/frustrated.
Flubber I want to say is town because of all the uncertainty. Beginning lots of sentences with things like hmmm or uh is something that I find town does far more than scum. The reason is pretty obvious. Lel cuz scum legit know everyone's alignment whereas town does not and is therefore much less confident.
GlitchvTrendall I believe to be SvT for the reasons stated tho my experience is not much so I could be wrong that that is the norm.
Staarling said a lot of things that had I not known she was a noob, I would've been like "how can a person be this scummy?"
I think this is newbtown bc no matter what, her partners would've told her to shut it for a bit bc although she is a newb, a lot of things she's suggesting are ... antitown to say the least and scums would be worried to be found out and tell her to shush.
I like Hiraki. super towny vibes. town book for now.
Everyone else is tbd