Mini 659: The Neighborhood- Game over on Day 6

[bionicchop2]

## unvote iamausername

[crywolf20084]

Otherwise scum could do what iamausername did and claim miller on d1. Yes they will come up as guilty if investigated, but it wouldn't matter. Effectively, what iamausername did was make it pointless to investigate them - if there is a cop.

Certainly. That's why I think claiming immediately as miller is a good idea; it prevents the cop wasting an investigation on me. If I didn't claim, and was investigated tonight, we'd likely have a cop outed for no reason, and a mislynch tomorrow, because no one would (or should) believe someone who claims miller AFTER a cop comes out with a guilty on them. Better that I get mislynched today, if it comes to that, and leave the cop free to make actual useful investigations.

With you claiming, I can still see the cop invetigating you, just to make sure, and then outting himself to let everyone know that you

did

came up guilty. We would then have a long look at you to decied if a lynch would be a good idea or bad idea. So, the cop really does have a reason to look into you....

##unvote

mah random vote


On a nonserious tone, am I the only girl? o-o?

[iamausername]

If I was going to show up innocent to a cop (whether because I'm normal town or inv-immune scum), why the hell would I claim miller?

[bionicchop2]

yeah crywolf, your logic makes little to no sense. There would never be a situation where there would be an advantage to announcing you would be found guilty if investigated if that were not the case (well I guess unless there was a joker/fool/whatever who is intentionally trying to get lynched).

[Elias_the_thief]

Eh, I guess I believe the claim for now and a claim day 1 is probably the best play if youre truly a miller. But I mean, its really not a terrible play as mafia as it deters your lynch day one and a guilty result on you isnt at all damning...I dunno. For now I'll leave my vote on tony montana, who I believe has yet to post.

[Rashiminos]

Non random vote

##Vote: Rashiminos

I see what you did there.


I'm not exactly inclined to believe iamausername's claim at the moment since it appears to be lacking a certain flavor. Maybe he could remedy that.

[Westbrook_Owns_U]

Just posting to confirm I'm still here. I'm tired right now, I'll post something later.

**Mod Note: Relaced by Oman**

[Ythill]

I'm not exactly inclined to believe iamausername's claim at the moment since it appears to be lacking a certain flavor.

QFT.

So, the cop really does have a reason to look into you....

Are you really trying to direct a cop investigation? Why?

Here's my input... though I'm not wanting to get into a huge theory discussion, I believe that the miller claim is not a pro-town move. However, I understand that some people think that it does help the town. These people are certainly wrong, but being wrong does not make them scummy.

Since this claim has already happened and there's not much we can do about it at this point except make the most of it...

User claimed miller which means he is (a) a miller telling the truth (b) a mobster lying or (c) another option that I'm not going to explain for now. It's safe to say that one of the first two is most likley true, and the secret third option doesn't make any differnece in the points below. The important thing to see here is that, no matter what, user's alignment will be seen as "guilty" to a sane cop. So...

(1) User should be treated as if a cop got a night-zero guilty result on him. He should be scrutinized very carefully as long as he's alive.

(2) As long as he's alive, user is an excellent way for cops to test their sanity. A result of "guilty" on him means that you are sane or paranoid (which is easy to figure out) while an innocent result would mean you are naive or insane (which is almost as easy to figure out). Of course, if your sanity is guarenteed (or you figure it out some other way) then this point can be ignored.

[gorckat]

Vote Count

iamusername

: Darox, Rashiminos (2)

bionicchop2

: iamausername

Elias

: Lowell

Rashiminos

: fhqwhgads

TonyMontana

: Elias

I have poked Tommy and TonyMontana with the link to the game. Since I didn't include it in role PMs, I'm assuming they simply haven't seen this thread yet.

[Darox]

##Unvote: iamusername, Vote: Rashiminos

I don't like the miller claim. Far too much potential for WIFOM there. I'm going to treat him as someone that hasn't claimed for now, because that means less headaches.

[iamausername]

I'm not exactly inclined to believe iamausername's claim at the moment since it appears to be lacking a certain flavor. Maybe he could remedy that.

Oh, sure. I'm the Piano Teacher, and because I tortured you all as kids by forcing you to play scales and stuff, you have an irrational hatred of me and will find me guilty even though I'm not.

(2) As long as he's alive, user is an excellent way for cops to test their sanity. A result of "guilty" on him means that you are sane or paranoid (which is easy to figure out) while an innocent result would mean you are naive or insane (which is almost as easy to figure out). Of course, if your sanity is guarenteed (or you figure it out some other way) then this point can be ignored.

Eh, I think the chances of a cop being anything other than sane in a mini normal are small enough that using me to test sanity is unnecessary.

[fhqwhgads]

##unvote

random vote.

Wel, this game has gotten serious very quickly. I like it!

iamauser's claim might not be pro-town, but it got us all right into the think of things.

Crywolf, if I understand you correctly, you believe the cop is now not only obligated to investigate iamauser, but also obligated to out himself to confirm his claim?

I find this logic erroneous at best. The cop would put a big bullseye on himself while we would still not know if iamauser is scum or a miller. This does not help town at all.

I'm not sure if your statement just missed the point, or if it is the worst cop fish I've seen. A

FOS

on you! And your kind!

I believe iamuser, at best, has prevented himself to be lynched on day 1. Scummy?

IGMEOY

perhaps?

##Unvote: iamusername, Vote: Rashiminos

I don't like the miller claim. Far too much potential for WIFOM there. I'm going to treat him as someone that hasn't claimed for now, because that means less headaches.

Is this a random vote? Do you really think ignoring the claim is the best course of action?

[iamausername]

I believe iamuser, at best, has prevented himself to be lynched on day 1.

How's that, exactly?

[Darox]

I am by no means ignoring the claim.

However, it will not affect my opinions on iamausername

for now

. As such, I will consider him as if he had not claimed.

My vote is not random.

[TonyMontana]

##vote: darox

for voting first, for shifting quickly and for randoms sake.

[Tommy]

I have poked Tommy and TonyMontana with the link to the game. Since I didn't include it in role PMs, I'm assuming they simply haven't seen this thread yet.

Keep your hair on - it still hasn't been 24 hours since you unlocked the thread.

I've read the discussion that iamausername has thoughfully pointed to, and I think his claim makes him a little more likely to be pro-town than the rest of you.

I'm most interested in the position Ythill has taken. He's cast aspersions on iamausername, but has cleverly manoeuvred so that people find it hard to challenge those aspersions, by announcing that he doesn't want to get into a theory debate. I don't want to derail the game by introducing a theory debate anyway, but I think it's fair to look at the points of theory that Ythill himself has raised:

Claiming miller unbidden verifies the existance of a cop...

No it doesn't.

...and narrows the search for him.

True. But if we believe him, which I'm inclined to do, it narrows the search for scum as well.

It also creates a good meta strategy for scum if it becomes the norm.

But it hasn't become the norm, so that point's irrelevant.

Is your attack sincere, Ythill? If so, I think you need to back it up a little more before you close the book on it. If not, you're certainly better at subtly getting a bandwagon rolling than some players.

[fhqwhgads]

I believe iamuser, at best, has prevented himself to be lynched on day 1.

How's that, exactly?

I state this only as my opinion. I think while you have brought enough attention to yourself, your claim has already not only caused divided opinions, but people being called out on those opinions. Personally, I think it was a good move (if a bit unconventional) from your side.

Also, I do believe Tommy makes some good points re the claim.

For clarification, I haven't read the thread you pointed to, nor do I intend to at this stage.

[Ythill]

He's cast aspersions on iamausername, but has cleverly manoeuvred so that people find it hard to challenge those aspersions, by announcing that he doesn't want to get into a theory debate.

All I said was that I don't want to get into a "huge theory discussion," which is different from not wanting to discuss it at all. I simply stated my beliefs, so that y'all know where I stand. I also have stated that others who believe differently are welcome to their opinions.

If we are going to try to change one another's mind about this, we should do so in MD because we only have three weeks to lynch correctly.

Is your attack sincere, Ythill?

I wouldn't call it an attack. In both of my posts I have explicitly stated that I don't think user is scum per se. The closest I come to an attack is where I say that we should treat user as if we have a N-0 guilty result on him, a statement that I stand by.

If you'd like to argue that point (concicely), I think it would be relevant.

[TonyMontana]

The closest I come to an attack is where I say that we should treat user as if we have a N-0 guilty result on him, a statement that I stand by.

How bout we treat him like he just claimed miller on page 1, and act like we have no affirming evidence to support the claim?

[Ythill]

Isn't that the same thing?

[Ythill]

To clarify:

I defined treating him as cop-investigated as: scrutinize him closely as long as he's alive. Tony, how is your angle different?

[TonyMontana]

Well, I guess it's kinda redundant, whether we imagine he was investigated or not.
We really just have to decide for ourself if we believe user is a miller. Personally, I think he is, but it's a sticky situation, seeing as there's no way to confirm it other than a lynch. Or, heaven forbid, someone counter-claims.

Truth be told, this is the first game I've heard of the role, had to look up the wiki to find out what a miller was, so I don't know how usual the role is. The more frequent milllers appear in games, the less likely it would be for user to be a scum. (ie, doesnt have much risk of a counterclaim)

Nonetheless, I think claiming initially was a good move, if for nothing else than to kick-start the game.

The flavor seemed plausible as well..

[Lowell]

I feel like all I do is make this argument in various games.

Why you should believe iamausername's claim:

1) WIFOM notwithstanding, it's too risky for a scum to make this claim on PAGE 1
2) There could be multiple scumgroups/an SK/etc. So even if he's scum, there's a chance being "cleared" by town will get him killed by another faction, again making it pointless to fake.
3) Page 1 claims are awesome.

Why you shouldn't whine about iamausername's claim:

1) So what if it narrows the scum's search for the cop? It also narrows the town's search for scum, which is far more important.
2) It potentially SAVES a cop, were one to investigate iamausername by chance and then be put in the awkward position of having to out him/herself AND a role that turns out not to be scum.

##unvote, vote tony

. His post is all over the map. He's trying to sow the seeds of doubt without having to take responsibility himself.

[TonyMontana]

##unvote, vote tony

. His post is all over the map. He's trying to sow the seeds of doubt without having to take responsibility himself.

Yay for vague, unsubstantiated attacks.

[gorckat]

Vote Count

TonyMontana

: Elias, Lowell (2)

iamusername

: Rashiminos

bionicchop2

: iamausername

Elias

: Lowell

Rashiminos

: Darox

Darox

: TonyMontana