Smoke-Filled Antechamber [Endgame]

[DiamondSentinel]

Man, the more I hear about this game, the more bummed I am that I didn't get to play it. Sounds like it was super fun.

[midwaybear]

VOTE: Pooky
better than Bell for now

[Tammy]

It's begging for you to agree with them, or at the very least grant his reads merit. In my experience, it's been a horrible scum-tell, where a player asking for someone to validate their reads is just trying make them seem legitimate.

This wasn't asking for validation though? This was asking for feedback, as in "Do you agree or disagree with my reads?"
"

See, that's where you're wrong, buddy.

It's not just about what people say, but

why do they say it

? And specifically, why do they say it how they say it? Instead of saying "what do you think of my reads", why did they not say "what reads do you have on X, Y, and Z people?" The former has an inherent assertion that the reads have merit of their own, and it's a clever way to normalize someone's opinions.

PEdit: So a couple things.
I do know Cabd's personality, and it's not just personality that I'm reading. I've glanced at some of his recent games and this behavior is a bit off compared to those.
Additionally, at this point (this early in the game), working together should always be viewed with scrutiny. Even if they're metabuddies, any amount of immediate comradery should be viewed under the microscope.
And finally, I

have

looked at that possibility that he is trying to read your reaction, and I just don't find that credible. It doesn't hold much water. Anyone can react to someone's reads. It's, in my experience, one of the weaker types of ways to read people.

That's where asking the person in play is important!

[SirCakez]

I'm going to elaborate a little on my 731.

Syr, Cabd and midwaybear have expectations of bell's play, somewhat informed by meta. petapan has much of the most salient meta front and center of his brain, too.

You three come to the same conclusion about Bell's alignment without openly discussing it.

I did not come to that conclusion, and at the point where Syr vocalized the meta, I went on high alert to see what happens next.

petapan happens next. Which means that he didn't reach my conclusion. But, why would he wait until the meta info hit the thread before voting if he was in the "I miss Avenger" camp?

Is this why there is a Bell wagon? Insider meta that was not really shared with the thread? Hmm ok..

[SirCakez]

I can't do it
UNVOTE:

I can't not give Bell time and pizza if we're already giving other people I don't love as much time and pizza

Ffery if we had scum!Bell and I let you talk me out of it I'm never letting you hear the end of it

Now i need a new target. Hm. Back later.

You are severely mistaken as to the deepest meaning of pizza, and I don't intend to dish out any more clarity.

This is the kind of Cabd post I don't like. Jokey but also "serious" but really pretty much useless.

You are severely mistaken as to the deepest meaning of pizza, and I don't intend to dish out any more clarity.

Frankly I don't care, deciphering morph-speak is more work than I intend to put into anything this game or any game

My point was I'm okay with not killing Bell rn, which you of course knew

I haven't townbinned Bell. I'm leaning a little in that direction, partly because I don't expect Avenger any more than I expect Assassin, and because I liked that he entertained the idea of working with me, and I liked that (it appeared) he put his guard up a little about my (actually Cabd's!) scumgame when I told the tale of the evil neighborhood.

My play's pretty different here, too. The amount of spine I'm feeling while playing on my main is promising! I hope it lasts.

Yah watching the morph heads go at it in the opening pages was fascinating and for the moment I'm okay being led around by the nose by you a bit

I dig Syr's response here

[Jake The Wolfie]

It's begging for you to agree with them, or at the very least grant his reads merit. In my experience, it's been a horrible scum-tell, where a player asking for someone to validate their reads is just trying make them seem legitimate.

This wasn't asking for validation though? This was asking for feedback, as in "Do you agree or disagree with my reads?"
"

See, that's where you're wrong, buddy.

It's not just about what people say, but why do they say it? And specifically, why do they say it how they say it? Instead of saying "what do you think of my reads", why did they not say "what reads do you have on X, Y, and Z people?" The former has an inherent assertion that the reads have merit of their own, and it's a clever way to normalize someone's opinions.

For the sake of argument, say the person they were asking had completely different reads. Would them expressing their disagreement in anyway signal "merit" or "normalization"?

[SirCakez]

Nahdia might also be scum here. Her posting earlier felt really forced and now she's been absent for most of today. Disengaged Nahdia does not make a town Nahdia.

[petapan]

Is this why there is a Bell wagon? Insider meta that was not really shared with the thread? Hmm ok..

eh not for me, mostly it was see cabd's vote, go back and look at bell's ISO to see if i can see whatever he sees, saw Bell was being super active lurker-ish so i followed the vote

[petapan]

Nahdia might also be scum here. Her posting earlier felt really forced and now she's been absent for most of today. Disengaged Nahdia does not make a town Nahdia.

*their

[DiamondSentinel]

Oh also. I think I saw them a while back (I might be wrong), but who are the heads of morph? Is that Cabd and fferylt?

PEdit: Absolutely. Just because you disagree with someone's reads does not mean that they are not

legit

. Legitimate reads are reads that are working towards solving the game, not sowing discord. There are many people I've had disagreeing reads with historically that I also did not for a second doubt were town, and they truly meant those reads (and there are a fair few people who's said the same thing)

[SirCakez]

my feeling on jake is he's probably going to get himself yeeted at some point this game and i have no idea which way he'll flip

I specifically joined a Large game to avoid getting executed first.

Is there a reason that you're so unwilling to put in heavy lifting, then?

I fear that whatever I say will always be turned against me, even if it's the towniest thing that has ever been done before, and I'll end up as the first blood again.

I disagree with DA; I like this post for town actually.

You're right that's a horrible scum tell! About as bad as the "I'll pick back up at post #" scum tell.

Why can't it be him reading me by my reaction to his reads or him trying to gauge where my head it at to see if we're on the same page? Why can't it be two people working together?

The rest of the things you pointed out look like you're scum reading personality or play style rather than things that are actually scummy. And maybe you got fixated on the things you did because someone asked you about the group of us.

On the one hand, I kinda like it because sometimes people get squicked when they don't understand the friend dynamics and how people interact who've played a lot together and are friends in real life. On the other, I'm wondering if you realize you're reading personalities as scum rather than behavior.

@Diamond Sentinel

Tammy I think you might be kind of biased on this one

[SirCakez]

Nahdia might also be scum here. Her posting earlier felt really forced and now she's been absent for most of today. Disengaged Nahdia does not make a town Nahdia.

*their

Thank you Peta
Apologies Nahdia

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

VOTE: Pooky
better than Bell for now

I demand you apologize to my imaginary roleplay character :3

[SirCakez]

Is this why there is a Bell wagon? Insider meta that was not really shared with the thread? Hmm ok..

eh not for me, mostly it was see cabd's vote, go back and look at bell's ISO to see if i can see whatever he sees, saw Bell was being super active lurker-ish so i followed the vote

I have not gotten that vibe from Bell. And Cabd's vote remains completely unexplained so not giving me any confidence there.

[Tammy]

? How is that bias?

[Jake The Wolfie]

PEdit: Absolutely. Just because you disagree with someone's reads does not mean that they are not legit. Legitimate reads are reads that are working towards solving the game, not sowing discord. There are many people I've had disagreeing reads with historically that I also did not for a second doubt were town, and they truly meant those reads (and there are a fair few people who's said the same thing)

Wait, you're getting me confused. What's the differences between

Merit

,

Normalize

, and

Legit

?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

SC is probly scum - he's way too sweet here.

I'd vote him but MWB still hasn't apologized for causing the death of poor Eliza yet.

[petapan]

but yes i am still waiting for Nahdia to give me a reason to think they're town

Is this why there is a Bell wagon? Insider meta that was not really shared with the thread? Hmm ok..

eh not for me, mostly it was see cabd's vote, go back and look at bell's ISO to see if i can see whatever he sees, saw Bell was being super active lurker-ish so i followed the vote

I have not gotten that vibe from Bell. And Cabd's vote remains completely unexplained so not giving me any confidence there.

i did but i'm not going to iso-dive for you on a read i no longer have conviction in

Is this why there is a Bell wagon? Insider meta that was not really shared with the thread? Hmm ok..

eh not for me, mostly it was see cabd's vote, go back and look at bell's ISO to see if i can see whatever he sees, saw Bell was being super active lurker-ish so i followed the vote

I have not gotten that vibe from Bell. And Cabd's vote remains completely unexplained so not giving me any confidence there.

the explanation is in 817, which i predict you will not like

[midwaybear]

Yeah yeah let’s see you keep your vote on one person for the whole day.

[Gamma Emerald]

So you voted me less because you thought I was scummy and more because you wanted a reaction?

How do you prefer to play as town?

no, i thought you were scummy, it was just a more productive use of my vote to put it on you and see what you'd say. moved it back to bell when he was actually around.

still trying to find my stride comng back from a long hiatus but the way i liked to play was not try to think about the game broadly, just pick someone i felt was scummy and tunnel them until they towntold or i got them killed

yeah that makes sense
idk if you meant for this or not but your play here is pretty much as you say your town game is like, and I don't think you specifically intended to manipulate that description, so I think you're town

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Yeah yeah let’s see you keep your vote on one person for the whole day.

You are a heartless monster :/

[SirCakez]

? How is that bias?

You seem to be very close with Cabd as a person and your defense of him mostly consists of "it's just his playstyle" when I feel like the case against him goes beyond that

[SirCakez]

SC is probly scum - he's way too sweet here.

I'd vote him but MWB still hasn't apologized for causing the death of poor Eliza yet.

What does this mean lol

[SirCakez]

but yes i am still waiting for Nahdia to give me a reason to think they're town

Is this why there is a Bell wagon? Insider meta that was not really shared with the thread? Hmm ok..

eh not for me, mostly it was see cabd's vote, go back and look at bell's ISO to see if i can see whatever he sees, saw Bell was being super active lurker-ish so i followed the vote

I have not gotten that vibe from Bell. And Cabd's vote remains completely unexplained so not giving me any confidence there.

i did but i'm not going to iso-dive for you on a read i no longer have conviction in

Is this why there is a Bell wagon? Insider meta that was not really shared with the thread? Hmm ok..

eh not for me, mostly it was see cabd's vote, go back and look at bell's ISO to see if i can see whatever he sees, saw Bell was being super active lurker-ish so i followed the vote

I have not gotten that vibe from Bell. And Cabd's vote remains completely unexplained so not giving me any confidence there.

the explanation is in 817, which i predict you will not like

mmm ok
Your predication was right, I'm honestly baffled a wagon has formed off of this.

[DiamondSentinel]

PEdit: Absolutely. Just because you disagree with someone's reads does not mean that they are not legit. Legitimate reads are reads that are working towards solving the game, not sowing discord. There are many people I've had disagreeing reads with historically that I also did not for a second doubt were town, and they truly meant those reads (and there are a fair few people who's said the same thing)

Wait, you're getting me confused. What's the differences between

Merit

,

Normalize

, and

Legit

?

Functionally? Very little.
To normalize a set of reads (or a stance) would just be to grant that it is legitimate and has merit.
Merit is that it's not complete bullshit and is worth discussing.
Legitimacy is that it is meant to solve the game and not sow dissent.