Open 81 - The New C9 - Game Over

[armlx]

and, also, why do you want to wait for a final analysis from Muerrto, when you seem to be his top suspect?

I have issues other then self-preservation on my mind? I'd rather not go into why and how a game analysis pre-lynch is relevant until after he posts it, but is there a reason I shouldn't want it posted other then him thinking I am scum?

[Battle Mage]

and, also, why do you want to wait for a final analysis from Muerrto, when you seem to be his top suspect?

I have issues other then self-preservation on my mind? I'd rather not go into why and how a game analysis pre-lynch is relevant until after he posts it, but is there a reason I shouldn't want it posted other then him thinking I am scum?

If you are town, self-preservation should be an important enough issue in itself. In fact, that applies regardless of affiliation. Which is why i find your behaviour odd. As far as an explanation goes, i can wait until tomorrow, as it seems the consensus for today is with Muerrto anyway.

BM

[armlx]

If you are town, self-preservation should be an important enough issue in itself.

This is where you are wrong. Self preservation is second to finding the scum as town, if not further down the line.

I'm interested why you are so assured that both of us are town, as that is the only scenario in which your concern applies.

[silence]

And third, can you please post your OWN case on Vamp since he was 'proable scum'?

My point was not that I thought Vamp to be probable scum, but that if he is, then you are, and thus a 'case on Vamp' is a 'case on Muerrto' and there is no reason why we should care whether you 'were screwed before you read the thread'. That you used

My point was that there's no way in hell I'd call out my partner like that protecting him. That's not WIFOM that's fact.

How do we know it is a fact that you would never something? Previous games etc. do not show anything as one can decide to play differently than before. I think that is why armlx called self meta the ultimate WIFOM.

[forbiddanlight]

If you are town, self-preservation should be an important enough issue in itself. In fact, that applies regardless of affiliation. Which is why i find your behaviour odd. As far as an explanation goes, i can wait until tomorrow, as it seems the consensus for today is with Muerrto anyway.

BM

Hi there. Actually, self preservation isn't really that important for non power roled town. Heck, even power roled town still has to put finding and lynching scum first (which in itself is preservation) A townie only looking out for themselves becomes useless quick except for their number. It also makes them scummy since the scum's game IS self preservation. To suggest that self preservation is an important issue with town is just wrong.

Oh, and also, Muerrto's analysis could provide some big hints no matter his alignment. I have...recently learned that more information before a lynch is generally better.

[Battle Mage]

If you are town, self-preservation should be an important enough issue in itself.

This is where you are wrong. Self preservation is second to finding the scum as town, if not further down the line.

I'm interested why you are so assured that both of us are town, as that is the only scenario in which your concern applies.

The assumption of Muerrto being town was inferred by you, and your intrigue into his suspicions. The assertion of you being town was a scenario used to portray why i felt your comment was far from in the interest of the town.

Furthermore, i don't believe i ever said that self-preservation is more important than finding scum. But then, given Muerrto has already outlined his suspicions quite succinctly, the only real impact i can see of him providing more analysis would be to the end of proving you are scum. Which, unless you consider YOURSELF to be scum, cannot be considered encouraging scumhunting.

Personally, if i am town, and the individual about to be lynched is naming me as their number one suspect, i tend not to try and encourage them to push this belief. However, you apparently see merit in Muerrto continuing to attack you, which will, if you are town, serve to distract the consensus, at the very least. I don't like people who openly encourage blind participation.

That said, i await your findings with eager anticipation!

BM

[Battle Mage]

If you are town, self-preservation should be an important enough issue in itself. In fact, that applies regardless of affiliation. Which is why i find your behaviour odd. As far as an explanation goes, i can wait until tomorrow, as it seems the consensus for today is with Muerrto anyway.

BM

Hi there. Actually, self preservation isn't really that important for non power roled town. Heck, even power roled town still has to put finding and lynching scum first (which in itself is preservation) A townie only looking out for themselves becomes useless quick except for their number. It also makes them scummy since the scum's game IS self preservation. To suggest that self preservation is an important issue with town is just wrong.

Oh, and also, Muerrto's analysis could provide some big hints no matter his alignment. I have...recently learned that more information before a lynch is generally better.

Hi!
You raise a valid point, which kind of intertwines with mine. You point out that hunting scum, leads to self-preservation. My point is that self-preservation as a townie is conducive to hunting scum. I've learnt from a seemingly infinite series of lynches as town, that the main reason towns lose games is because townies ACT SCUMMY. Now, my point is that, if every member of the town can avoid looking scummy, they will avoid lynch, and we have a great shot at nailing the scum. Armlx, however, seems to be doing the exact opposite-by encouraging a case on himself, he is not only NOT SCUMHUNTING but he is also setting HIMSELF up as a lynch candidate.
I should point out that "only Scum want to survive" is a complete myth. Anybody who plays a Mafia Game should want to survive. Granted, the usefulness of each member of the Mafia is greater, and thus there loss is more significant, but this is hardly the greatest scumtell to use when trying to differentiate between the two!
And yes, i'm not trying to say that Muerrto's comments will not be helpful. I am merely saying that i find Armlx's reaction towards him peculiar. Although this IS Armlx, so you have to expect fairly scummy looking play.

BM

[Korts]

BM, you're saying that armlx is deliberately trying to set himself up as a lynch candidate, just because he's willing to give Muerrto a last opportunity at saying his opinion? Why are you so afraid of Muerrto's last words?

[forbiddanlight]

BM, you're saying that armlx is deliberately trying to set himself up as a lynch candidate, just because he's willing to give Muerrto a last opportunity at saying his opinion? Why are you so afraid of Muerrto's last words?

This, kinda. I mean, if someone was about to be lynched naming me as their top suspect, rather than railroad the lynch and leave people wondering, I'd have them say their piece. I could use the night to construct a defense against it (or even defend that day), and come out looking townier pending a good defense. This is good for town and scum, really.

[Battle Mage]

BM, you're saying that armlx is deliberately trying to set himself up as a lynch candidate, just because he's willing to give Muerrto a last opportunity at saying his opinion? Why are you so afraid of Muerrto's last words?

Umm, HELLO? We have 2 weeks till deadline!
I dont see why there would be ANY rush to end the day, but then, i'm not on the wagon, so i wouldnt know.
I really wanna have a look at where the votes lie at this point, because i think we could potentially draw alot of conclusions.
It's not like Muerrto is under any real time constraint to post his comments. But, Armlx's stance on Muerrto's opinions seems completely inexplicable to me.
Can you please explain your last question, because i dont really understand where is it derived from?

Thanks,
BM

[Battle Mage]

BM, you're saying that armlx is deliberately trying to set himself up as a lynch candidate, just because he's willing to give Muerrto a last opportunity at saying his opinion? Why are you so afraid of Muerrto's last words?

This, kinda. I mean, if someone was about to be lynched naming me as their top suspect, rather than railroad the lynch and leave people wondering, I'd have them say their piece. I could use the night to construct a defense against it (or even defend that day), and come out looking townier pending a good defense. This is good for town and scum, really.

I disagree. Where is the value in a case being produced, if the best case scenario is that is completely refuted? It seems ridiculously awkward from where i'm sitting. Not to mention a major waste of time (although admittedly, we have plenty atm). I'll continue reading.

BM

[forbiddanlight]

I disagree. Where is the value in a case being produced, if the best case scenario is that is completely refuted? It seems ridiculously awkward from where i'm sitting. Not to mention a major waste of time (although admittedly, we have plenty atm). I'll continue reading.

The value is that self preservation you cite. Dealing with cases strengthens one's position, or weakens it irreparably, possibly catching scum. Clever scum might break a case and get stronger positioned, but generally there will be a screw up somewhere. I said it was good for scum to entertain cases, but only if they think they can keep themselves above suspicion afterwards.

[Battle Mage]

I disagree. Where is the value in a case being produced, if the best case scenario is that is completely refuted? It seems ridiculously awkward from where i'm sitting. Not to mention a major waste of time (although admittedly, we have plenty atm). I'll continue reading.

The value is that self preservation you cite. Dealing with cases strengthens one's position, or weakens it irreparably, possibly catching scum. Clever scum might break a case and get stronger positioned, but generally there will be a screw up somewhere. I said it was good for scum to entertain cases, but only if they think they can keep themselves above suspicion afterwards.

Perhaps. But then i would have thought that, if Armlx was going to refute said case against him from Muerrto, he would already have done so. But, as i said earlier, this does seem like the kind of thing i'd expect from Armlx meta-wise.

BM

[forbiddanlight]

Perhaps. But then i would have thought that, if Armlx was going to refute said case against him from Muerrto, he would already have done so. But, as i said earlier, this does seem like the kind of thing i'd expect from Armlx meta-wise.

I don't know armix's meta, so I'm just going with a general base. But wait, did Muerrto already post a case on armix? I think I missed it :S.

[armlx]

The assumption of Muerrto being town was inferred by you, and your intrigue into his suspicions. The assertion of you being town was a scenario used to portray why i felt your comment was far from in the interest of the town.

Furthermore, i don't believe i ever said that self-preservation is more important than finding scum. But then, given Muerrto has already outlined his suspicions quite succinctly, the only real impact i can see of him providing more analysis would be to the end of proving you are scum. Which, unless you consider YOURSELF to be scum, cannot be considered encouraging scumhunting.

As for the assumption of Muerrto = town, I did not assume anything of the sort. I left the door open in case it is true, that is all.

As for the only impact his analysis could bring is suspicion on me, you fail to understand the concept of people being able to think multiple people are scummy.

Armlx, however, seems to be doing the exact opposite-by encouraging a case on himself, he is not only NOT SCUMHUNTING but he is also setting HIMSELF up as a lynch candidate.

If my actions were legitimately scummy enough to warrant a case, they would be noticed later. What does it matter if the case is now or later? Its probably even better if the case is made now, as any refutations and responses I make now are less likely to be lost in a flood of other behavior, and tunnel vision is less likely to happen.

if Armlx was going to refute said case against him from Muerrto, he would already have done so.

If he had posted one, I would, but his only attack so far is "You are too good to be voting me right now".

[Korts]

BM, you're saying that armlx is deliberately trying to set himself up as a lynch candidate, just because he's willing to give Muerrto a last opportunity at saying his opinion? Why are you so afraid of Muerrto's last words?

Umm, HELLO? We have 2 weeks till deadline!
I dont see why there would be ANY rush to end the day, but then, i'm not on the wagon, so i wouldnt know.
I really wanna have a look at where the votes lie at this point, because i think we could potentially draw alot of conclusions.
It's not like Muerrto is under any real time constraint to post his comments. But, Armlx's stance on Muerrto's opinions seems completely inexplicable to me.
Can you please explain your last question, because i dont really understand where is it derived from?

Thanks,
BM

What has deadline got to do with this? I'm not rushing this, your shock/suspicion at armlx for waiting for Muerrto's analysis does, however, make it seem like you'd rather have it ended now. That's where the question is derived from.

[Korts]

armlx, I don't follow your train of thought. How does a case being presented now prevent the development of tunnel vision?

[armlx]

armlx, I don't follow your train of thought. How does a case being presented now prevent the development of tunnel vision?

Someone does a reread. They see behavior X early, and as such assume I am scum through the reread and frame all my actions in a scummy light.

[Muerrto]

Do you even have a case on me or was I screwed before I even read the thread?

You must not replace into games often. D1 actions are the place to go to when players flip scum later. Sorry you can't defend yourself more. If you're town, then contribute as best you can by trying to find scum. You think Armix is scum - who else is a good candidate?

Wrong. D1 actions are SOMETHING not everything. Building a case like this is just like MacAvenger did to me a couple games back. He was scum, I was town. It's a horribly weak case and everyone knows that.

[Battle Mage]

BM, you're saying that armlx is deliberately trying to set himself up as a lynch candidate, just because he's willing to give Muerrto a last opportunity at saying his opinion? Why are you so afraid of Muerrto's last words?

Umm, HELLO? We have 2 weeks till deadline!
I dont see why there would be ANY rush to end the day, but then, i'm not on the wagon, so i wouldnt know.
I really wanna have a look at where the votes lie at this point, because i think we could potentially draw alot of conclusions.
It's not like Muerrto is under any real time constraint to post his comments. But, Armlx's stance on Muerrto's opinions seems completely inexplicable to me.
Can you please explain your last question, because i dont really understand where is it derived from?

Thanks,
BM

What has deadline got to do with this? I'm not rushing this, your shock/suspicion at armlx for waiting for Muerrto's analysis does, however, make it seem like you'd rather have it ended now. That's where the question is derived from.

Not at all. I think you've completely misunderstood here. My point was not that Muerrto shouldnt analyse Armlx, but that Armlx encouraging him to do so seemed odd. I don't really see how you reached any other conclusion...

BM

[Korts]

Do you even have a case on me or was I screwed before I even read the thread?

You must not replace into games often. D1 actions are the place to go to when players flip scum later. Sorry you can't defend yourself more. If you're town, then contribute as best you can by trying to find scum. You think Armix is scum - who else is a good candidate?

Wrong. D1 actions are SOMETHING not everything. Building a case like this is just like MacAvenger did to me a couple games back. He was scum, I was town. It's a horribly weak case and everyone knows that.

You're defense is actually anecdotal, with an "everyone knows that" addendum?

[Muerrto]

I'll re-read when I get a chance. Till then you guys

might

wanna actually try and do some scumhunting in the

off chance

i'm town

You have some lurkers. Some who pop in once every 3 pages or so. Some who haven't voiced an opinion one way or the other. And some who are still saying a case on Vamp = a case on Muerrto which doesn't take into account any playing style or ability and is therefore bogus.

I really don't care if I'm lynched except that it hurts the town. I DO care that you guys are wasting an entire day arguing over it and creating a smoke screen that the scum are hiding behind nicely.

At this point do 2 things for me: Assume I'm the lynch today AND assume I'm town since if I'm being lynched you'll know that soon enough.

Now...scum hunt.

[Korts]

BM, I think I get your point now. But I took armlx to be waiting for a general analysis on the game, a kind of finger-pointing post.

[strife220]

I don't get BM's point at all. Armix said he wanted to wait for Muerrto's analysis before considering the hammer. I would have considered it scummy for him to hammer without letting Muerrto have a final say, regardless of what Muerrto flipped.

[forbiddanlight]

I don't get BM's point at all. Armix said he wanted to wait for Muerrto's analysis before considering the hammer. I would have considered it scummy for him to hammer without letting Muerrto have a final say, regardless of what Muerrto flipped.

This, as I learned recently, lol.