Mini 611 - Troy, Meet Helen (Game Over)

[charter]

Oh... You're right. I forgot that he didn't get anything because he investigated the dead guy. Mizzy confirmed that that would happen so I assumed that was the reason why. Never occured to me that he could have been blocked too.

Scratch all my no RB speech.

[Walnut]

I still don't see Thesp as necessarily clear, and not just because he may have been blocked. The assumption that the mafia would have blocked him is not such a sure thing when it has been explicitly stated that he is of uncertain sanity. That means that they can definitely allow him one inconclusive investigation.

CFRiot, I noted that you are getting on the Macwagon while I am also on your list of suspects. Just to confirm, do you see us as scum together, or that we each feature in possible mutually exclusive scum combinations?

While I am surprised at the speed of the Mac wagon, it does not bother me. There were a lot of posts and a lot of new information came out today (real time).

@Shadowgirl- welcome back.

Walnut wrote:
I have read the whole Mac post against me, and feel that there is nothing worth answering, as it is mainly rehashing, arguments based on incorrect assumptions, oversimplifcations and "you did <insert any role neutral action> so you are scum". If anyone has any specific questions from that, I am willing to answer them.


Then why not point them out? Or at least refute them of quotes of defense you already have on them?

The reason why not was that I felt that I already had, and that people were complaining that the accusations against me and my replies were taking up too much space.

[Farkshinsoup]

Walnut, are you for or against the mass claim? I pose this question to everyone else as well.

[Walnut]

I am against it. I could go into reasons, but I think that they might not be helpful overall.

[Thesp]

Thesp, who are your top three picks for scum now?

I'll try to get a skimming re-read of some things and answer this tonight.

How about you? (Apologies if you've answered this already, I don't recall the answer.)

(Reading ahead is tech.)

In other news, I can't believe I'm doing this again, but since I can't seem to sway Thesp on LG, I'm going to unvote vote: Tinsley. Just a better chance of getting him lynched, and I really want to lynch scum today. Tinsley, are you a mafia roleblocker? Cause that would be awesome.

I've not been thrilled with Lord Gurgi, and I don't like

how

he shifted his vote to Macavenger. Part of my basis for his defense was his open push for a deadline, now I'm a bit more skeptical of trusting my tell on that one. The rest of your post to Tinsley is awesome.

I find the narrowing down that Mac has done suspicious. If he is scum, then people agreeing to this could easily seal the game for the mafia, as it would be lynch one off the list, NK someone else, lynch one off the list etc. Yep, I know that we have to lynch someone today, but I don't like the assumption that this makes that the other players are inviolate.

Rich. You realize that, until about the last page, no one has talked seriously about lynching anyone not on that list in about 10 pages, except possibly you about lynching charter? I'm not narrowing anything down - the town is. I'm just supplying data.

I agree with Macavenger here.

I think I'm also trending towards a more aggressive style over time, but can't really comment on that without talking about some ongoings.

I personally recommend this. It's far more entertaining.

I don't like Riot's last post, particularly his Thesp=cop and Fark=doc scenario. There is no roleblocker if Thesp is town. There's no way scum would have chanced him investigating one of them if they could have avoided it.

It's unlikely the scum would have tried to kill me last night straightaway, as any doctor in the game (if they existed) would likely have protected me. If they had a roleblocker, it's almost certain they would have used it on me. The likelihoods in CF Riot's post are entirely spot-on, except I think it less likely that farkshinsoup would be scum claiming a weak doc having protected me, because he'll be a target way too easily. (There's no way he survives to the endgame with such a claim.)

I'm also

against

a massclaim. I don't think the game is poorly designed, nor do I think we're in a situation where massclaiming is ideal, so I don't think it's a good idea.

I still don't see Thesp as necessarily clear, and not just because he may have been blocked. The assumption that the mafia would have blocked him is not such a sure thing when it has been explicitly stated that he is of uncertain sanity. That means that they can definitely allow him one inconclusive investigation.

This may easily be one of the silliest things I've read in the thread.

[Tinsley]

Why are you all of a sudden so suspicious of Mac? When I said that we might be getting manipulated into thinking Walnut is scum, he was the one I was thinking was doing it, but I never said that until now.

Why did you suggest I vote Fark over LG in that post of yours I quoted?

I've been keeping Mac in the back of my mind since the start of D2. I was surprised to see him survive the night seeing as most here saw him as town. It's wasn't enough to build a case on, and there were others I found more suspicious. When I was reading through his posts, it just seemed like he was trying to lynch the people with the scummiest play styles - Netlava (Very aggressive, uses small details like the word tempted as scumtells), Walnut (Doesn't scum hunt just like he didn't really do it last game), ShadowGirl (tends to lurk) - because they would be the easiest targets.

I'd still like to see that speech. Charter - with the recent developments between LG and Fark, do you still think they are both scum? I think this is more proof that Fark is trying to get any lynch besides Walnut, but it's making me wonder whether or not LG is scum.

Why did you suggest I vote Fark over LG in that post of yours I quoted?

Where in that quote did I suggest that you vote Fark over LG? I honestly wanted your opinion on the possibility of Fark and LG both being scum, then provided my interpretation of that argument.

I'd like to revise my LoS
1- LG
2- Tinsley
3- Walnut/most everyone else
I'm not so sure Walnut is scum, I think we might have gotten bamboozeled into thinking that.

I interpreted this as LG or Tinsley or both are bamboozling us into thinking Walnut is scum.

I actually think LG and charter are onto something, not the fact that LG and I are a scumpair, but that we could be getting bamboozled into thinking Walnut is scum. Charter look who has been pushing the Walnut bandwagon the hardest - Mac. If everyone is being "bamboozled" into believing Walnut is scum, isn't Mac the one that's doing it?

There are a good amount of if's here. Why are you suddenly so certain that both Walnut is town, and that I'm scum pushing a wagon on him, rather than town doing so? Pushing the wagon of the person you find scummiest is not a scumtell.

There was only one if there, and that was in regards to charter's statement. My suspicion of Walnut mostly came from his history with Fark (both being on the bandwagons for Netlava, charter, and myself/Fark trying to get any lynch besides Walnut). While I don't think Fark's claim clears Walnut, it's made me reevaluate everything. Charter - if you believed we were being bamboozled by Mac, why didn't you say so? Do you think we are being bamboozled by a townie?

The logic that takes Walnut out of the picture is good, but the detail that is left out is Tinsley himself should still be on that list of suspects.

Right. Obviously I know where I stand and no one else does. But I was expecting to be lynched (and still do), then I'll be out of the equation, and I hope everyone will keep this in mind then.

Tinsley, following your own train of thought, if Mac is scum what two buddies could you pull from that list?

It would have to be two out of: Riot, charter, and LG. Right now I'm leaning toward charter and LG.

Did Macavenger just become the vote leader? I do not like how quickly this thing is moving.

I don't really think the bandwagon got moving that quickly. It's three votes, and two of them were on Fark who just claimed doc.

I think we should mass claim.

I think that's a bad idea. I think we'd just get caught up in analyzing each claim trying to decide if it's a lie or not. How would you prove it? I think it would just be a WIFOM situation.

[charter]

Why are you all of a sudden so suspicious of Mac? When I said that we might be getting manipulated into thinking Walnut is scum, he was the one I was thinking was doing it, but I never said that until now.

Why did you suggest I vote Fark over LG in that post of yours I quoted?

I've been keeping Mac in the back of my mind since the start of D2. I was surprised to see him survive the night seeing as most here saw him as town.

More speculation, that's a terrible reason to suspect someone. Living through N1?? I think you might actually be scum Tinsley.

vote Tinsley

I'd still like to see that speech. Charter - with the recent developments between LG and Fark, do you still think they are both scum? I think this is more proof that Fark is trying to get any lynch besides Walnut, but it's making me wonder whether or not LG is scum.

Why did you suggest I vote Fark over LG in that post of yours I quoted?

Where in that quote did I suggest that you vote Fark over LG? I honestly wanted your opinion on the possibility of Fark and LG both being scum, then provided my interpretation of that argument.

You're casting doubt as to whether LG is scum or not. Coupled with the both of them are unlikely to be scum you hint at with your question, the only thing for someone to infer is that Fark is more likely to be scum and LG is the pick for town. This is the manipulative post I was referring to (there could be others, I haven't gone back over Tinsley too thoroughly).

I'd like to revise my LoS
1- LG
2- Tinsley
3- Walnut/most everyone else
I'm not so sure Walnut is scum, I think we might have gotten bamboozeled into thinking that.

I interpreted this as LG or Tinsley or both are bamboozling us into thinking Walnut is scum.

You interpreted it wrong, Mac is the only person I thought might have been doing the bamboozling.

I actually think LG and charter are onto something, not the fact that LG and I are a scumpair, but that we could be getting bamboozled into thinking Walnut is scum. Charter look who has been pushing the Walnut bandwagon the hardest - Mac. If everyone is being "bamboozled" into believing Walnut is scum, isn't Mac the one that's doing it?

Charter - if you believed we were being bamboozled by Mac, why didn't you say so? Do you think we are being bamboozled by a townie?

I purposely didn't say who I thought was misleading us (I'm not going to type bamboozled anymore). I had no case against Mac, and nothing to show that he was purposely misleading anyone about Walnut. I'm not even sure that someone is misleading us, but the more I think about lynching Walnut, the less good the idea sounds. This leads me to believe that the original case against him (back on D1) was weak and fabricated. Me and Mac were the ones gunning for Walnut yesterday (was Riot too?).

It's ironic you mention wanting to avoid WIFOM at the end of your post after how you opened up day 2 today. Not funny ironic, scum ironic. Yes, I am all for the Tinsley lynch after his less than stellar answers.

[Mizzy]

Vote Count:

Tinsley 5 (camn, Walnut, Thesp, Farkshinsoup, charter)
Macavenger 3 (Lord Gurgi, Tinsley, CF Riot)
Walnut 1 (Macavenger)

Not Voting:

ShadowGirl

10 Alive = 6 to lynch!

[charter]

Tinsley's at L-1

Didn't realize when I voted him, but it doesn't change my read on him.

[Farkshinsoup]

My suspicion of Walnut mostly came from his history with Fark (both being on the bandwagons for Netlava, charter, and myself/Fark trying to get any lynch besides Walnut)

I take you back to the end of Day 1, when you voted Walnut instead of Net. You clearly suspected him then, and I had barely been in the game at that point, much less become involved in any of the stuff you mention above.

In regards to the massclaim, since I'm clearly in the minority on that, I'll let it drop for today. I gotta say though that I'm becoming a fan of them. Still trying to figure out when the best time to do them is, though.

Please carry on lynching Tinsley. At this point, if you're not on his wagon, please ask yourself, am I that certain he's not scum? If not, then get on the wagon. It's a good wagon. Comfy seats.

[Tinsley]

This is the manipulative post I was referring to (there could be others, I haven't gone back over Tinsley too thoroughly).

So you haven't gone back over me to thoroughly, but you're ready to lynch me?

[charter]

That post is quite damning. I believe I provided other reasons in my post as well. It's assuring that you try to discredit me rather than refute my points though. It makes them seem like they're right.

If you'd like, I can go back and "fit some of your posts to make my case" as LG calls it.

[ShadowGirl]

I'm either way on a mass claim at the moment, but I'm leaning towards thinking it's a bad idea - we have two power roles outed, and I would think someone would have counter-claimed already?

While we could speculate all we want about whether there is a mafia roleblocker, we won't be able to tell until tommorow. Though, I can see that is possible and maybe probable - wouldn't mafia have some sort of power role to compensate? Other the assumption that the current claims are true - which I don't know whether they are.

Vote: Macavenger

I'm going to to agree Tinsley - he's been targetting the people that it's so easy pin scum on.

[Tinsley]

More speculation, that's a terrible reason to suspect someone. Living through N1?? I think you might actually be scum Tinsley.

vote Tinsley

Thus why I said it wasn't enough to build a case on. You asked why I was all of a sudden suspicious of Mac. That's only where it started. It's not what I based my whole case around.

You're casting doubt as to whether LG is scum or not. Coupled with the both of them are unlikely to be scum you hint at with your question, the only thing for someone to infer is that Fark is more likely to be scum and LG is the pick for town. This is the manipulative post I was referring to (there could be others, I haven't gone back over Tinsley too thoroughly).

I'm the manipulative one? You're totally twisting my words here and in the quote above.

I purposely didn't say who I thought was misleading us (I'm not going to type bamboozled anymore). I had no case against Mac, and nothing to show that he was purposely misleading anyone about Walnut. I'm not even sure that someone is misleading us, but the more I think about lynching Walnut, the less good the idea sounds. This leads me to believe that the original case against him (back on D1) was weak and fabricated. Me and Mac were the ones gunning for Walnut yesterday (was Riot too?).

Then as a townie isn't it your responsibility to put these ideas out there for consideration? Even if you had nothing else against Mac, shouldn't you have said something, or were you afraid you would get lynched?

It's ironic you mention wanting to avoid WIFOM at the end of your post after how you opened up day 2 today. Not funny ironic, scum ironic. Yes, I am all for the Tinsley lynch after his less than stellar answers.

That's your opinion that NK speculation would have been WIFOM. I wasn't the only one who thought that it could help find scum.

[charter]

Thesp, what do you now think of SG?

[Farkshinsoup]

I'm not seeing the Mac thing - I can't believe that he has 4 votes, when almost everyone else in this game is scummier, including me. (well, I can believe it, since 2 of those votes are coming from LG and Thesp) Not that I'm sure that he's town, but if someone can show me a scumtell I'd like to see it.

I don't buy the whole, "he's been targetting the people that it's so easy to pin scum on" argument. One of those people was Net. As far as I'm concerned, pushing for his lynch is a bit of a nulltell, since he was acting so scummy. (This is part of the reason I support a Tinsley lynch - he was able to "see through" Net's scummy behaviour to see the inner townie shining through) Mac was right to suspect him.

Mac said this:

Why are you suddenly so certain that both Walnut is town, and that I'm scum pushing a wagon on him, rather than town doing so?

QFT. Assuming that Mac is scum because he's been pushing Walnut's lynch only makes sense if you KNOW that Walnut is town. At this point you're putting the cart before the horse.

Oh and

FoS Shadowgirl

. In your last post you:
a) joined a bad wagon for a bad reason
b) safely came out against a mass claim after everyone had dismissed it, including me, the instigator.

Combine this with your general ghost-like presence in this game, and I think it deserves a suspicious finger. Mac's not the one who's been getting a free ride in this game, it's you.

[ShadowGirl]

I haven't gotten on the computer since yesterday, so I thought I mineswell respond to it anyway even if it had been dismissed.

I will agree that I haven't been active, but not because I haven't wanted to. And I don't think anyone has said that Mac has been getting a free ride.

[CF Riot]

I still don't see Thesp as necessarily clear. . .

Possible yet unlikely. For Thesp to be lying, either Fark has to also be lying, or Fark would have to be telling the truth AND there would have to be a RB AND they would've had to choose Fark N1.

Just to confirm, do you see us as scum together, or that we each feature in possible mutually exclusive scum combinations?

I'm not set on either. I thought his push for your wagon looked genuine, probably because I was pushing it too. But thinking about how he switched to you yesterday when it looked like Netlava was pretty much done for, I could believe he was bussing. I think it's more likely that only one of you are scum, but I'm not sold on it.

The likelihoods in CF Riot's post are entirely spot-on, except I think it less likely that farkshinsoup would be scum claiming a weak doc having protected me, because he'll be a target way too easily. (There's no way he survives to the endgame with such a claim.)

But if Fark's head was on the chopping block already, what does he lose? He gains an extra night at least, and at worst no one believes him and he dies the same as he would've with no claim.

Are you saying you would vote Fark to keep him from endgame?

. . .get on the wagon. It's a good wagon.

Comfy seats.

Lol. I'm not going to vote Tinsley, I just thought that was funny.

[Lord Gurgi]

I don't buy the whole, "he's been targetting the people that it's so easy to pin scum on" argument. One of those people was Net. As far as I'm concerned, pushing for his lynch is a bit of a nulltell, since he was acting so scummy. (This is part of the reason I support a Tinsley lynch - he was able to "see through" Net's scummy behaviour to see the inner townie shining through) Mac was right to suspect him.

Am I reading this right? You think Tinsley is the lynch because Tinsley was against the Netlava lynch?

Why are so many people just saying 'what he said' and jumping on the Mac wagon?

[camn]

I stated that I think that not ALL the scum were on the Netlava wagon. Some of them must have voted elsewhere.

[charter]

I stated that I think that not ALL the scum were on the Netlava wagon. Some of them must have voted elsewhere.

Want to try and back that up?

[camn]

No Backup.. It's just my reasoning. They wouldn't ALL wagon a townie. That's inconceivable to me.

Unless you mean "when did you say that?" In which case it was post 692. When I initially voted Tinsley.

c

[camn]

EBWOP.

I think there was enough people NOT on the Netlava wagon so that some had to be scum.
Usually this wouldn't be that significant, but in my mind I have cleared a number of them, so the REMAINING people who were NOT on the wagon got pretty small.

so, Netlava, obv, is dead.
Thesp and Shadowgirl . . I think they are town...
That leaves You, Mac and Tinsley.

In my mind, at least one of these three must be scum, regardless of scumminess.

[Farkshinsoup]

Am I reading this right? You think Tinsley is the lynch because Tinsley was against the Netlava lynch?

I know this Day has been very long, so I'll cut you some slack for forgetting my argument against Tinsley from page 23, post 566.

Camn, could you please drop the hammer on Tinsley so we can end this day?

[charter]

Camn is already voting Tinsley. Why are you in such a rush here Fark? I certianly want Thesp to post again before night comes.

I'd like to ask no one to hammer until Thesp posts again.