Open 792: Masons and Monks GAME OVER

[Hayasaka]

First.

[Hayasaka]

Did I step in a time ripple and go to 2016 with this playerlist?

heh, I didn't notice that at a first glance.

[Hayasaka]

VOTE: not_mafia

[Hayasaka]

VOTE: Hayasaka
meta

Interesting.
Very interesting tbh.

[Hayasaka]

Worry worry not cause I'm with you

Tbh this is going to sound dumb.
But I have pretty deep meta on how MariaR enters games and I think she is town here.

[Hayasaka]

Worry worry not cause I'm with you

Tbh this is going to sound dumb.
But I have pretty deep meta on how MariaR enters games and I think she is town here.

I’m confused.

It's not worth overly explaining tbh.

[Hayasaka]

Worry worry not cause I'm with you

Tbh this is going to sound dumb.
But I have pretty deep meta on how MariaR enters games and I think she is town here.

You're right

(not on the maria being town part)

Wait a minute...

[Hayasaka]

VOTE: hayasaka
Newb scum response to being voted

Spoiler:

I was trying to figure out if him voting me like that was town or not. "This doesn't actually mean anything does it." was basically the conclusion I was drawing in that post.

Let's pretend the vote could be serious for the sake of the following explanation since as a meme the post means nothing.

Dunn knows I won't react negatively to him doing that which is one risk down the drain. This would be my usual reason for town reading a post like that.
Using meta to draw an incorrect read on an alt is a surefire way to upset a lot of people. But Dunn can reasonably assume I won't care if he does that.

The other reason I could town read that post is if it's a conclusion that indicates he is trying to solve me, not make passable posts. But I can't think of a singular reason that isn't shallow. Which is the other reason I'd town read a post like that.

To some degree Dunn knows I like to town read people who try and make strong enterances but it's not like he is doing that so that's the scum argument down the drain as well.

tldr: It was interesting because I have 0 idea how to analyze it.

[Hayasaka]

AGar, if you have a child and they join ms

Why would AGar subject his child to this awful site?

[Hayasaka]

Did your parents get you to join this site?

I don't think my parents know what an internet forum is.

[Hayasaka]

Mixed feelings on 58. Seems intended to make progress, but not terribly inspiring.
Very mixed feelings on 60. That's a lot of explanation. Being clear, or appearing to be clear?

I don't particularly like this post from Davesaz he is hedging a ton in this post.
I think either of these could be described as scum indicative but he is choosing not to for no real reason.

[Hayasaka]

VOTE: davesaz

[Hayasaka]

Mixed feelings on 58. Seems intended to make progress, but not terribly inspiring.
Very mixed feelings on 60. That's a lot of explanation. Being clear, or appearing to be clear?

I don't particularly like this post from Davesaz he is hedging a ton in this post.
I think either of these could be described as scum indicative but he is choosing not to for no real reason.

Because you hide behind the anonymity of an alt I don't know if you know me or not.
Accuracy is important in this game. Anyone who has seen me play knows I approach every early game this way.

Notscience can have a short pass on this since it has almost certainly been years since we have played.

In general I would consider myself to a similar player my last game which was on this account post lynch I ended up declaring exactly 2 reads. I understand why one would hedge as town I do it literally all game.

But I think how you chose to do it was scummy and my explanation failed to capture how I felt. When town hedge they leave things open. "X is scummy but what if Y" kind of ideas. So you would say my post is super scummy but you can see town playing like that.

So town hedge but they leave discussion open to say "why do you think that". But the post I quoted basically closes that off. It's just straight hedging to state thoughts without anyone being able to claim you actually have any down the line I guess?

[Hayasaka]

Dram how about we lynch Dave together.
Then I bus my partner for full town cred and proceed to be shot by the other team.

Why lynch 2 scum when you can get a 3rd one for free.
You have to think big.

[Hayasaka]

So town hedge but they leave discussion open to say "why do you think that". But the post I quoted basically closes that off. It's just straight hedging to state thoughts without anyone being able to claim you actually have any down the line I guess?

The way I do this is to state what I think, and see what questions or conversation comes from it.

Part of the point is I think you hedged in a way that if you are confronted about it. You can just step back and go "it was just a random thought not an actual read."

Which is also what I think the meta argument is doing for you.

Town can hedge like that but you approaching it in a way that feels a lot more manipulative in nature.

[Hayasaka]

You said you did it for conversation but your post offers nothing in terms of that. It's closed off in a way that I feel stops it all together. Idk if you wanted to create conversation you would be a bit more firm and state reservations.

Mixed feelings on 58. Seems intended to make progress, but not terribly inspiring.
Very mixed feelings on 60. That's a lot of explanation. Being clear, or appearing to be clear?

[Hayasaka]

Elements vote was worst of all but he's easy to solve so VOTE: dramonc

Ehhh idk about this one.
Dram hates wordy bs from scum which isn't an unfair assessment of my post about Dunn. I think its different from pushes I am comparing it to since I was asked to explain nothing.
But I don't think it's different enough to make it below null.

are you reading the game?

Yeah and we have people voting because she sounds like newbscum and it’s an obvious alt

So am I not allowed to criticize lane wagons? Because I’m gonna keep doing it

If you push someone as noob scum then proceed to figure out they have experience why would you be less inclined to believe the tell when an experienced player can simply mess up.

You said you did it for conversation but your post offers nothing in terms of that. It's closed off in a way that I feel stops it all together. Idk if you wanted to create conversation you would be a bit more firm and state reservations.

Mixed feelings on 58. Seems intended to make progress, but not terribly inspiring.
Very mixed feelings on 60. That's a lot of explanation. Being clear, or appearing to be clear?

See that question mark?
It's an invitation for conversation.
How you can get "closed off" from that is just beyond understanding for me.
We're having a conversation about it. How can you think it's closed off?

For reasons already explained.
You didn't commit to any opinions and you made it very easy to let you walk out if it got tough for you.

[Hayasaka]

Elements vote was worst of all but he's easy to solve so VOTE: dramonc

I am replying to you twice since this is more open ended for anyone to reply.

I think the worst vote by a good margin is AGars initial vote. At this point he has triple downed on literally nothing despite it not giving him a reaction.

If he believes his read he is probably just scum making a show out of nothing to look town regardless of my alignment. Or he is pushing a shit read to look like he is doing something when he plans on backing down.

If it's a reaction test which was my assumption at first. Him not backing down feels more like posturing then something actually trying to be productive.
I guess if he is doing a reaction test he got a reaction now but I think it's overdue to be his only focus in the thread.

[Hayasaka]

I am looking back right now and that post was an incredible stretch.
I do think your vote was the worst, but half that post was me thinking this game has gone on for 48 hours and not 24 which does change how I read it.

[Hayasaka]

I actually can't follow the logic in 86 - Because someone didn't hedge in the way you did once as town, they're scummy? Is that what I'm reading?

No I created an example, and explained the scum motivation. But if you want to interpret it that way then go for it.

Re, 49 - then why bring up 41 at all if it's not worth elaborating on?

That read was largely a shit post. I didn't know your post was serious so I ignored it.
I don't have an explanation for the read, I brought it up because I felt like it.

- Speaking of, how closely are you reading this game? Other than your pensive dave interactions, it feels very much like you're focused on survival and analysis of your burgeoning wagon. How far out are you probing outside of those two pools?

I missed the 1 above post and I ignored it because I didn't think it was a serious question.
Dave isn't voting me who is the main person I am talking about so I am not sure how you get the a strong survival vibe from me?

- Are you an alt? (idgaf who and I cbf to figure out, but if we're going to do this fucking tango in thread I would like to quash it quickly).

Yes.

[Hayasaka]

I went back to skim the thread.

Who has posted and isn't on my wagon that isn't Dave or NotSci.
I am not sure who you think I am ignoring?

[Hayasaka]

VOTE: agar

Whatever. I agree my initial read was awful but agar is caught for the wrong reasons.

[Hayasaka]

- Speaking of, how closely are you reading this game? Other than your pensive dave interactions, it feels very much like you're focused on survival and analysis of your burgeoning wagon. How far out are you probing outside of those two pools?

I went back to skim the thread.

Who has posted and isn't on my wagon that isn't Dave or NotSci.
I am not sure who you think I am ignoring?

[Hayasaka]

I mean... Isn't that the exact shit you're accusing dave of? Posting noncommittal shit that can just be handwaved away?

Because my post was intended to be a shit post. Dave's wasn't.

I think that's clearly different?

[Hayasaka]

None of your posts look like shit posts to me

Multiball is tricky because I have to ignore his read but also think about the circumstances surrounding it since the key difference is scum really want to survive. His read on me is easily real which is a bit awkward. Social tells won't work on a game with players who have 4+ years of experience.

I fully agree that first post I made in regards to agar was shit, I admitted to that pretty early on, before agar stated issues with my other posts. But it's multi-ball so his push on me being potentially being real isn't that surprising to me.

Although I will admit his posts regarding me "reaching" could be a valid take I look at some other arguments he is making and it kind of gives me a bit of a pause on how legitimate his push on me is. The 2 quotes below feel more scummy then wrong like he is trying to win a debate not solve the game..

- Speaking of, how closely are you reading this game? Other than your pensive dave interactions, it feels very much like you're focused on survival and analysis of your burgeoning wagon. How far out are you probing outside of those two pools?

The above is objectively false, I responded to everyone who made real posts in thread. I questioned NotSci and pushed Dav who wasn't even pressuring me.
He thinks I am scum but he is pushing me on what he can, not what would actually make someone scum.
This isn't even opinionated, it's straight up an invalid post for someone reading the thread.

I mean... Isn't that the exact shit you're accusing dave of? Posting noncommittal shit that can just be handwaved away?

Let's assume the statement is correct, I am doing what I am accusing dave of. If I think X makes someone scum I can do X by mistake it doesn't stop X from being scum indicative. It doesn't actually invalidate the statement I made.
Or the real world where he is just misrepresenting what is going on. Neither is a good look.

So in both worlds it feels like a "haha gotcha" moment and not a real take.

[Hayasaka]

I am all ears as to why those 2 quotes in question come from town and not scum.
People are explaining the Dave town read and I respect it enough to not go back on him without more info.
But "agar is town xD" just won't cut it.

[Hayasaka]

I mean I know I probably shouldn't post this.
But I guess an explanation could just be he is a mason and he just doesn't care what his push on me looks like since he just wants to "win".

[Hayasaka]

NotSci explain your AGar and Dunnstral read.
I don't care how shit the explanation is.

[Hayasaka]

Agar feels very similar to his intro in mini 2146 we played together a month ago.

I feel like this is the same dunn town intro I’ve seen in minis 2153 and 2148.

Ok sounds good.

[Hayasaka]

But this seems to be a particular dead end right now - I believe we're talking right past one another at this point.

I am fine leaving it at this for now.

[Hayasaka]

UNVOTE:

[Hayasaka]

It's not hard to keep up with this game. The hard part is finding stuff I consider of value.

It isn’t a total lack though.

From my last post to the post I just made my reads have not changed in the slightest. Maybe a light townread on Agar but that's not much.

We are making the authentic 2016 experience for Not_Mafia.