Open 86 - Lovers Multiball (Game Over)

[destructor]

.::] Vote Count [::.

*

Crazy (7)

- icemanE, OpposedForce, charter, SleepyPanda, somestrangeflea, ThAdmiral, DarlaBlueEyes

charter (1)

- farside22

Raging Rabbit (1)

- Firestarter

Firestarter (6)

- neko2086, cerebus3, Raging Rabbit, Harvey Pew, Crazy, sekinj

somestrangeflea (1)

- dybeck

IcemanE (4)

- Cephrir, Erratus Apathos, Alabaska J, Adel

Not Voting (4) - pacman281292, wolframnhart, WaltWishbone, pwnz

Thirteen

votes to lynch.

[orangepenguin]

... and Firestarter has requested replacement.

Not sure if I'm allowed to post yet, but I replaced Firestarter. Doing a re-read.

[WaltWishbone]

This game is moving really fast. This is a really detailed post Adel, I wasn't sure what you meant either, but now this makes sense.

this is where Crazy revealed his tell

(How many PMs from the mod do you have in your inbox?)

before that additional PMs were never mentioned in the games, except for:

Additionally,

crazy, unless you received some kind of special message after your role PM, the generic townie PM is available for all to see on the first page of this thread. It's the PM is received, so unless you got something extra, you're full of crap.

Please vote and eliminate crazy-scum, it's clear now he's full of shite.

we all got a second PM after our role PM, with the link to the daytalking forum, and that PM is not posted on the first page.

but it gets better,

He never said anything about it being in a PM about a secret scum tell.

Where are you getting this from? Voting patterns wasn't the only thing that is a secret scum tell in this game.

There is a second part.

The difference between townies and scum comes from the role PM they receive at the beginning of the game. As I said, unless the rest of the townies got some special message that I didn't, the tell is based on voting patterns.

Or, as you state, it's possible I am thinking of something different. Regardless, the tell I'm thinking of is only possible if the mass-claim doesn't happen for a few days, so I think what I've got in mind is accurate.

as scum, icemanE knew this game was an open game with the townie role PM posted on the first page. He held on to this belief, but gave himself the out of "unless the rest of the townies got some special message that I didn't" in case Crazy's scumtell was a minor variation between the role PM that was sent and what was posted. It didn't occur to him that there could be a second role PM. If he were a townie he would know that there was an entire message that townies recieved that was not posted on the first page.

as a control, take a look at Sleepy Panda post:

This scumtell discussion is just silly. Does knowing the scumtell make you less scummy? I don't know what it is, does that mean I'm scum? We have two people arguing that they know what the scumtell is and that the other is pretending to know, but they can't say it or it ruins it, so they can't prove if they know it or not. You're not getting anywhere.

Iceman, why are you talking about role PMs and saying that unless Crazy got a special message, he doesn't know what the scumtell is?

There's no other way for Crazy to know what the scumtell is?

Crazy, how are you so sure that Adel is town? There are two scum factions. It's not possible for her to be in one and try to eliminate the other? How do you go from pushing for massclaim, then when Adel mentions the words "secret scumtell", you immediately know what she's talking about and go along with her?

Panda noticed that icemanE placed particular emphasis on the "special message"

so, was icemanE aware of the second PM that gave the quicktopic link?

well, he doesn't make another post until 240 (after the daytalking PM to townies was revealed and talked about), at which point he posts:

PANDA, IT IS SOMETHING THAT ONLY TOWNIES WOULD KNOW!!! I can't say anything more without revealing what it is. Not all townies might catch it, but THERE IS NO CHANCE THAT SCUM WOULD KNOW WHAT IT IS.

This is straight BS. Townies are LESS informed than scum.

How could they possibly have info that scum does not?

If you want me to, I'll reveal what I believe the "secret tell" is - it's hardly a secret, it's something both scum and town could easily figure out if they thought about it for a minute, so knowing the tell does not prove either way that you're town or scum - that's the main problem I have with crazy's crazy bull. Like I have said many many times,

unless crazy recieved some sort of special information the rest of us missed, there's not a game-specific "secret tell"

. The one I'm thinking of could exist in any game of this type. Additionally, it's not an unbeatable, bulletproof tell - it's as valuable as any other, and just as breakable.

Crazy's defense of "keep me alive until at least day 3 so you can see my secret" is trash. Also, the fact that he unvoted me just a few short posts after he said:

I am about 90% sure Adel is town. I am about equally sure Iceman is scum.

is ridiculous.

I think it's worth losing farside (who from my evaluation hasn't done anything awesomely protown or horrifically scummy) to lynch Crazy, who is quite clearly scum.

so did he miss post 199 and all of the conversation about daytalknig and PM's on page 9?

the next post mentioning daytalking icemanE makes is

You thought I was scum for, in your words, "pretending to see a scumtell" which scum apparently had no way of knowing about,

despite the fact that it's equally plausible for both scum and town to think of revealing daytalk after a few days as a scumtell

(I assume you did this to make yourself appear incredibly protown and extend your value-life until at least day 3 (evidenced by your little plea a couple pages back (PWEEZ DON'T WYNCH ME!))). When you realized your scumtell wasn't what ADEL was talking about (who, for some odd reason or another, you've decided is the pillar of the town, proven somehow to be on the town's side without any real backing for that statement) you suddenly retracted all suspicions, only to cast them out again a short while later because you accuse me of "not reading" when I reference earlier posts.

icemanE is trying to run a distraction-based defense. He wants everyone to focus on the daytalking, and not on the number of PMs.

let us review:

(How many PMs from the mod do you have in your inbox?)

this post is the real scum-trap.

Crazy didn't know that the scum also got a second pm!

... and icemanE was worried that something was amended to the version of the pm sent to townies. icemanE did not know there was a second PM sent out to townies with a quicktopic link.

for a while I thought that icemanE was testing Crazy, to see if Crazy would admit to recieving something in addition to his original PM, which would clear clear Crazy.

Between the "scumtell" and "mass claim" discussions, this has been really interesting. It seems that two groups of potential scum have formed. One around Crazy/Farside and another around Iceman and possibly Firestarter. I still have a really strong feeling that crazy is scum AND my post/fos was before he voted himself. I don't buy the excuse that believing the scumtell would work means he is town. However, at this point I think the strongest case has been made against Iceman. I don't have anything to add, I agree with what adel wrote.

VOTE: Iceman

[destructor]

orangepenguin

replaces

Firestarter

.

[icemanE]

@Adel -

I very much appreciate you actually explaining yourself. However, if you'll look at my posts just above yours, you'll see my explanation for what you're attempting to say. A special message is not a PM linking to daytalk, it's information.

I asked Crazy if he got some sort of SPECIAL INFORMATION after his role PM, not the link to his daytalk forum. The link to the daytalk forum isn't SPECIAL INFORMATION because EVERYONE GOT IT. I pointed out after looking over the role PMs that the scum and werewolf PM's say "team" instead of "lover." You're either misreading or, as I've said, just making things up.

I see your mistake - yes, several times I asked Crazy if he had special info. But if you actually read what I said, you'll realize you're reading way too far into it without seeing the surface, which is:

Ah, but reading over them again, it seems the scum each get a forum where they're allowed to talk to their entire team at once instead of just their lover.

I'm sorry Adel, but you're off-base. I'm not going to continue to repeat myself as I have here, but you're delving down into something you think you've caught hold of that just isn't there. Putting it into your own words, as you did in your case post, makes it seem "damning", as you put it, but it's not even a mistake or a slip-up on my part, it's just you projecting what you think you see into my posts.

[Cephrir]

I don't even need all that big case, 164 and 166 are enough for my vote now that I get it.

sekinj, I don't get why you aren't voting Iceman.

[charter]

Did my reread, Crazy has flip flopped on everything he's said. I don't buy his claiming to have good reason to do it, you can always make up something believable.

Still like my vote on Crazy.

[icemanE]

Since you finally did me the respect of showing me your case, I'll do you the respect of showing you why you're wrong.

He never said anything about it being in a PM about a secret scum tell. Where are you getting this from? Voting patterns wasn't the only thing that is a secret scum tell in this game. There is a second part.

The difference between townies and scum comes from the role PM they receive at the beginning of the game. As I said, unless the rest of the townies got some special message that I didn't, the tell is based on voting patterns.

as scum, icemanE knew this game was an open game with the townie role PM posted on the first page. He held on to this belief, but gave himself the out of "unless the rest of the townies got some special message that I didn't" in case Crazy's scumtell was a minor variation between the role PM that was sent and what was posted. It didn't occur to him that there could be a second role PM. If he were a townie he would know that there was an entire message that townies recieved that was not posted on the first page.

Farside wasn't implying the "Second PM", she was saying there's a "second part" to the scumtell, which presumably was Crazy's "quoting the daytalk plan". It worked out conveniently for you, Adel, that she used the words "second part", because you were attempting to prove that I didn't realize that a second PM with the QT info came after the role PM.

Panda noticed that icemanE placed particular emphasis on the "special message"

so, was icemanE aware of the second PM that gave the quicktopic link?

well, he doesn't make another post until 240 (after the daytalking PM to townies was revealed and talked about), at which point he posts:

A. Anybody who didn't notice I was putting emphasis on "special message" is a fool, considering how many times I made that point.
B. Your point here evolves into me attempting to distract everyone and get them to focus on daytalking instead of # of PMs received. # of PMs received was not a topic of discussion at the time. You take my posts out of context.
C. You whole argument is inaccurate WIFOM that you attempt to put forth as fact, summarizing my attack on Crazy as actually being a

distraction-based defense.

which anyone who actually reads that section of the game will realize is a bizarre misconstruing on your part. You clearly reread the game with an agenda in mind, as I was attacking in every post, there's nothing defensive about it. Saying I was distracting people from thinking about how many PM's they received isn't even close to the truth, as I was essentially hammering the exact same points in every one of my posts - lynch Crazy, lynch Crazy, lynch Crazy, etc.

for a while I thought that icemanE was testing Crazy, to see if Crazy would admit to recieving something in addition to his original PM, which would clear clear Crazy.

Not in the slightest - I was proving he's scum.

What makes you so sure of this, BTW:

Crazy didn't know that the scum also got a second pm!

???

Two things about this post:
1. How do you know the scum also got a second pm?
2. Your entire argument crumbles at the feet of this point, as you've entirely contradicted yourself - you attempt to say I didn't realize everyone got a second PM with their link to the QT, and then you say scum also got one - so if I was scum, I would have gotten one, according to what you're saying here. Why then would I assume townies didn't? Please address this, as if you don't I will assume your entire idea is invalidated and be sure you're scum based on you having info only scum could have.

Next, what is the relevance to your point in quoting the part where I was talking to RR about scum slips, quoting mini 615? That's out of nowhere and doesn't apply.

In 164 you claimed that the towies role PM being posted on the first page was the reason why the town couldn't have secret information. In fact, we all got a second PM after our role PM, with the link to the daytalking forum, and that PM is not posted on the first page.

Right - but that's still not special information. It's not "if the scum say (THIS), you'll know they're scum!" It's standard info, and you're trying to make it seem as if the daytalk link is the "special info" I kept referring to when it's freaking standard issue.

If you look at nothing else, please look at the above section in red, as it destroys Adel's case entirely. That is all.

[charter]

I'd also like to hear some from DBE, particularily your read of SSF.

[icemanE]

I don't even need all that big case, 164 and 166 are enough for my vote now that I get it.

I would urge you to actually read those posts instead of believeing what Adel says about them.

[somestrangeflea]

So essentially, what you're putting forth is that a townie has no reason to group "I think he's scum" in with three other reason why a person should be lynched? I just can't process how that's even remotely in the realm of a scummy thing to do.

I'm going to say something which will, for some people, completely destroy my credibility:
It was a

slip

that scum would make when attacking someone they believe to be in scum.

And additionally, your point would require that Crazy be scum to be valid?

No. The slip doesn't rely on Crazy being scum. It relies on

your

belief that Crazy is scum, and we already know you believe that, because you told us.

Basically, what it comes down to is this:
1. The slip makes it more likely that Crazy and IcemanE are not a part of the same team.
2. The slip makes it slightly more likely that IcemanE is scum.

Also, what WWB said.

Unvote, Vote: IcemanE

[sekinj]

I don't even need all that big case, 164 and 166 are enough for my vote now that I get it.

sekinj, I don't get why you aren't voting Iceman.

Because I didn't understand what Adel was getting at. I thought the case against Ice was based on the whole daytalk distraction and ice supposedly not knowing that townies got a lover daytalk as well. When Adel explains his case I can see the instances where ice says that everyone ONLY got the role PM, Nothing else 'special', and then when he realized that everyone got a second daytalk PM, he tried to pass it off that the daytalk PM wasn't 'special' therefore it fit into what he said early. However, many of his early posts say again and again ONLY THE ROLE PM. He would not have emphazised that if he actually meant the role PM and the other daytalk PM which according to him is standard and not special at all. However, even the daytalk PM seems at least a little special to me, since it was a rule change and added on at the last second.

I hate to jump votes so much, but after understanding the case against Ice:

Unvote
FoS: crazy, fire
Vote: Ice

[icemanE]

ice says that everyone ONLY got the role PM

Ugh. I can see Adel's piper's song has lured you in as well.

I'm not repeating myself anymore. If you've got sense, use it, if not, good game.

[Raging Rabbit]

Firestarter asking for replacement looks like scum giving up, a townie's more likely to hang back and defend himself imo.

While I find Iceman scummy regardless of Adel's case, I'll delay judgment on it until she explains something that's really confusing me:

Adel wrote:

Crazy didn't know that the scum also got a second pm!



???

Two things about this post:
1. How do you know the scum also got a second pm?
2. Your entire argument crumbles at the feet of this point, as you've entirely contradicted yourself - you attempt to say I didn't realize everyone got a second PM with their link to the QT, and then you say scum also got one - so if I was scum, I would have gotten one, according to what you're saying here. Why then would I assume townies didn't?

This really does seem to contradict the rest of your case, please explain this and also how you know that scum got two PM's.

[sekinj]

Additionally, crazy, unless you received some kind of special message after your role PM, the generic townie PM is available for all to see on the first page of this thread. It's the PM is received, so unless you got something extra, you're full of crap. Please vote and eliminate crazy-scum, it's clear now he's full of shite.

@ice: Why would you say this if you knew everyone got two PMs? the PM about the daytalking could EASILY be classified as a special message since it involved a rule change. you say "It's the PM is received" (which I assume means "It is the PM that was received") which is SINGULAR. If you were being honest, why did you always reference the standard PM as singular instead of plural? According to your story NOW, there were TWO standard PMs. Yet, you say "unless you got something extra, you're full of crap." But EVERYONE got something extra besides their Role PM. You were mistakenly trying to hide that you got an extra PM regarding your scum daytalk.

[icemanE]

@ice: Why would you say this if you knew everyone got two PMs? the PM about the daytalking could EASILY be classified as a special message since it involved a rule change. you say "It's the PM is received" (which I assume means "It is the PM that was received") which is SINGULAR. If you were being honest, why did you always reference the standard PM as singular instead of plural? According to your story NOW, there were TWO standard PMs. Yet, you say "unless you got something extra, you're full of crap." But EVERYONE got something extra besides their Role PM. You were mistakenly trying to hide that you got an extra PM regarding your scum daytalk.

It was meant to say "It's the PM I received", yes, and I apologize for not rereferencing the PMs in my inbox, as I didn't feel the need to. But do you seriously think my intent this whole time was to hide that I got a second PM? Really? You really think I would continue to ask Crazy over and over again if he got a special message after his role PM if I wanted to HIDE the fact that I got a second PM?

The point is, the # of PMs received never had anything to do with what I was trying to say about Crazy - my continual reference to the "special message" was intended to demonstrate that Crazy's claim that he had a secret scumtell was bullcrap, which turned out ot be accurate. He kept on saying "ONLY TOWNIES CAN KNOW THIS SCUMTELL", so in saying "unless you've got special info, that's shite", I was disproving his claim. I don't see how you can misinterpret that but I guess it's easier than reading it correctly.

[Crazy]

Unvote
Vote Iceman

Nothing much to say... I agree with Adel spot-on. And thank goodness that she made mention of that "distracting" thing... nobody bought that when I said so.

[wolframnhart]

Did my re-read. Not really liking the "Only townies can tell" scum tell talk, because I'm a moron, I wouldn't know what the "scum tell is" that you are talking about and would have asked about it with no hidden agenda to my question. Then BAM! i would have been pounced on for being an idiot. To me, that is scummy in its self, cuz its like a set up a scum player would use to discredit a townie.

Vote: Crazy

Also (if he is still in the game because I didn't see his name on the recent vote count but I didn't see him replaced either)

FoS pwnz

because saying something like "Let's lynch its day one!" is just retarded especially with all the getting serious talk that was going on.

[Crazy]

Wolf, did you even read?

Do you even know what the scum-tell

was

?

[WaltWishbone]

Wolf, did you even read?

Do you even know what the scum-tell

was

?

I'm happy with my vote on Iceman, however for the replacemements and some players trying to catch up who are maybe reading too quick, Crazy can you explain your scumtell again and how you thought it would work. It might be easier in one post as oppossed to having it spread throught out several posts in repsonse to questions. How did you expect it to work? Why would a massclaim hurt it? Did you speak to farside about it in your DT thread before you made your post agreeing with Adel to drop the massclaim? etc...

[ThAdmiral]

Oh wait, I see it now.

vote: iceman

[sekinj]

Please raise your hand if Crazy has NOT asked you if you have read. Oh, I guess that only applies to the lurkers who arn't going to post anyway.
Crazy: I guess you're the only one reading. With the mistakes you've made it sure makes me glad that no one else is reading (according to you).

[farside22]

Man this game is going fast. I will try and get to everyones comments today, but I really have 2 games ahead of this one to comment on.

[Cephrir]

I don't even need all that big case, 164 and 166 are enough for my vote now that I get it.

I would urge you to actually read those posts instead of believeing what Adel says about them.

I did read them ,that's the point. If I noticed those two posts, I would have voted you even if Adel didn't post.

[orangepenguin]

Firestarter asking for replacement looks like scum giving up, a townie's more likely to hang back and defend himself imo.

FYI, Firestarter asked for replacement because he was in too many games, and was struggling to keep up with them. You should seethis thread. In this game, Firestarter was under lots of pressure in the beginning during day 1 in that thread, but captured scum, and is now in day 3. Firestarter did not seek replacement because of being under attack, just to make that clear.

I am almost reading through, but for now, I am gonna

unvote

right now.