Mini 649-Everything comes down to money(Game Over)

[Light-kun]

Strange. I posted something very weak to get discussion rolling, but you chose to ignore it almost entirely. SO, I am actually wondering why you found SirD's post scummy, and why you chose to ignore other discussion.

On the other hand, Artem is laying it on a little thick for my taste.

Hm... I need to look for lurkers because all I see is a lot of Airhead Artem banter...

I will hopefully have more time to post tomorrow.

[Netlava]

Airhead, I agree that being defensive is not a scum tell. That said, I think that in the random stage, scum often end up justifying their votes too much, which is a bit different than simply defending oneself. Also, how suspicous of you of sirD?

Y.C. and Artem's reaction to the teenaged males comment is a bit suspicious. I don't see how such a comment could be considered offensive, perhaps it is feigned?

Y.C.'s comment more so because of the following:

intended to either vent or steer away from the subject of discussion, you are making an "appeal to emotion"

I can argue that it was not an appeal to emotion in the first place, but your comment made it so by ascribing such characteristics to it. Also, one side comment like that in no way steers the subject off course, so I think you are inflating its significance.

Unvote, vote: Y.C.

Also, airhead's voting policy doesn't seem like a half bad idea. It can be argued that it is a better choice in general since it clarifies people's stances at various stages of the game. The only con I can think of is that it makes us more susceptible to quick lynches. What do you all think?

[riboflavin]

i dont know id like to hear more from Y.c before i vote same from sir D

[Y.C]

My comment to Airhead was about manner of delivery and not content, less due to a feeling that she is scum, more since I see this kind of stereotyping, even if not said completely seriously, as bad practice in what is ideally a logical debate.
I allowed myself to assume that she is relatively new to mafia, this being her first game here, and maybe she is unaware of how it may appear to others. It grated my ear, so to speak, so I addressed it.

[Airhead]

Netlava, your point about scum overdefending random votes is fair enough. My vote truly was not random, but I see your point.

Artem's reaction seems more genuine... Y.C. bringing it up as suspicion against me after many others have, and is now backing down from it because he thought I might be inexperienced. Seems odd to me; why be suspicious of me at all if you are willing to ascribe your suspicion of me to being wrong and just me being inexperienced at the slightest of protests.

Netlava, I agree that my voting policy is a good idea. As I said in the 4th paragraph of post 69, so long as we aren't at lynch or lose and no one is at lynch-2, there is no reason not to vote the player you find most suspicious out of everyone.

[lifeofpie]

Netlava, your point about scum overdefending random votes is fair enough. My vote truly was not random, but I see your point.

Artem's reaction seems more genuine... Y.C. bringing it up as suspicion against me after many others have, and is now backing down from it because he thought I might be inexperienced. Seems odd to me; why be suspicious of me at all if you are willing to ascribe your suspicion of me to being wrong and just me being inexperienced at the slightest of protests.

Are you trying to bring attention apon yourself?

[Airhead]

No I am not trying to bring attention

u

pon myself lifeofpie. What makes you ask me that.

[Netlava]

Y.C., so you didn't find the comment scummy?

[Light-kun]

I don't like any of this conversation. And since that is probably the 3rd vote on YC, is anyone gonna state any kind of case on him?

To be sure, no one's actions are screaming out to me as scummy. I am going to go look back at YC, cause I had to have missed something.

[Airhead]

riboflavin, why do you say I have offered no explanation for my vote. Why do you tell sirdanalot not to take it the wrong way when you accuse him.

riboflavin could you please respond. thanks.

[Light-kun]

I've basically told

a group of mostly (teenage/20s) males on the internet

that they can't do something because it is bad. The natural reaction, obviously, is to ignore me and do it anyway. See posts 58, 65, etc.

Airhead, by introducing an issue irrelevant to any logical considerations, intended to either vent or steer away from the subject of discussion, you are making an "appeal to emotion". This is a major scum-tell, at least as I see it.

No, Netlava, the above does make decent sense. In fact, this in no way makes me think YC is scum. More important to me is the following little debate. [This is after reviewing YC's play, which has done nothing to set off my scum-dar (trademark!)]

My comment to Airhead was about manner of delivery and not content, less due to a feeling that she is scum, more since I see this kind of stereotyping, even if not said completely seriously, as bad practice in what is ideally a logical debate.
I allowed myself to assume that she is relatively new to mafia, this being her first game here, and maybe she is unaware of how it may appear to others. It grated my ear, so to speak, so I addressed it.

Netlava, your point about scum overdefending random votes is fair enough. My vote truly was not random, but I see your point.

Artem's reaction seems more genuine... Y.C. bringing it up as suspicion against me after many others have, and is now backing down from it because he thought I might be inexperienced. Seems odd to me; why be suspicious of me at all if you are willing to ascribe your suspicion of me to being wrong and just me being inexperienced at the slightest of protests.

Netlava, I agree that my voting policy is a good idea. As I said in the 4th paragraph of post 69, so long as we aren't at lynch or lose and no one is at lynch-2, there is no reason not to vote the player you find most suspicious out of everyone.

Honestly, this argument just gives me a higher feeling that Airhead is mafia, and not the other way around. (They could, of course, both be town, or even YC as mafia, but I am presenting the feeling I get.) She is pursuing YC over Artem, and her reasoning is weak. I personally read this thinking that she is going after YC because other people voted for him, so he is an easier target. This is a very biased argument, and assume Airhead is mafia, but it was necessary in order to relate my thought.

Now, in spite of all the above, I personally find this post to be the most scummy thus far:

i still have my suspicions on who is scum and they are: Y.C and Sir D. good luck after you lynch me hope u finally realise who Actually is scum.

and gratz to you 2 for so easily turning my fellow townies against me, although my newbyness doesnt help as i dont know a way to prove my innocence, only the fact that the post that started all of this was an honest noob post. i hope you guys can come to realise that im a townie and have been made to appear as a scum by Y.c and Sir D who were both so quick to make me appear as scum.


off topic, when you get killed do you find out who the mafia are? and when some1's killed do you find out if they were innocent or mafia?

I just find this post to be scummy. And, I could be wrong, but this is just my first feeling when I read it. There was a VC, right before it. And Ribo, not even close to lynch, freaks out. Just putting out my other ideas.

@Coron: Why do you only post when you are mentioned as suspicious for not posting or when you are prodded?

Anyway, now that I am done giving opinions, I am going to go back and ask, one more time:

Where does YC appear to be scummy? Just point out the thought process and I will look at it, but I really don't see it.

Nati-Note: Fixing tags...again

[Light-kun]

Damn.

Mod, sorry, forget to unclick "Disable BBCodes" Fix tags would be appreciated.

[riboflavin]

light kun this is/was (now playin some others) my first game and it appeared to me that i had been used as a scapegoat, now after re reading my post i do think i overreacted just a bit:P

[sirdanilot]

In addition, I asked sirdanalot about his "defense" in post 50 and he still hasn't responded. I'd like to hear a response before I decide he is less suspicious. Others are now nearing sirdanalot in suspiciousness for me, but not reached him.

riboflavin, why do you say I have offered no explanation for my vote. Why do you tell sirdanalot not to take it the wrong way when you accuse him.

sirdanalot, firstly, I responded in post 50, right at the beginning, and you never addressed that. Secondly, I didn't even understand your "defense" as such -- you basically just described what happened and said your thoughts behind it. I already stated that if you thought riboflavin was suspicious you should have voted him. Your defense doesn't respond to the substance of my point. Why was it better to FOS him than vote him.

You did not address my defense in that post. The only thing you commented on was the second part of that post, which expressed suspicion of you rather than my defense.

To make it easier for you, I'll quote the part that you should have commented on.

I unvoted because the random voting stage was over and Artem was not suspicious enough to warrant a lynch, and I wanted to wait putting pressure on riboflavin. And as you see, Artem's defense (I even mentioned that I was waiting for that) was enough for me to not directly suspect him anymore (I still have my eye on him) and ribo came off as the number one suspect.

Seriously, your case against me is flawed. From the first moment on the case was 'history' (I already had voted ribo before you popped in), you haven't replied to my defense and you have been ignoring everything else that was going on at the time. You are fixated only on me, and I don't see how being fixated on one person only is helpful to the town.

[Y.C]

Y.C., so you didn't find the comment scummy?

At the time, I didn't find Airhead's comment scummy in itself, I had more of a problem with her manner (i.e mentioning the other players gender/age).

However, after Airhead's reaction to my second post about her (no. 78) and Light-kun's analysis (no. 85), my suspicion-levels have risen.
Posts 81 and 84 reflect some anxiety. This could be due to Airhead's style of playing; nonetheless, it does give away a feeling of tension, a response of a novice to pressure.

FoS Airhead

[Natirasha]

Vote Count 4

Airhead(1): Artem
Riboflavin(2): Coron, sirdanilot
sirdanilot(2): lifeofpie, Airhead
Y.C(1): Netlava

Riboflavin would still be lynched. 5 to lynch.

[riboflavin]

think coron is active lurking havent seen him post until he is proded or suspected as lurking

[Coron]

think coron is active lurking havent seen him post until he is proded or suspected as lurking

Posting because someone is suspecting me of lurking.

[Light-kun]

think coron is active lurking havent seen him post until he is proded or suspected as lurking

Posting because someone is suspecting me of lurking.

Posting because Coron is suspected of lurking.

Seriously, do you have no defense or is this your style of play for the game?

*...*

I am really curious as to why you are lacking any reaction aside from mild cynicism.

Nati-Note: Oh, dear god, just uncheck that little button that says "disable BBCode", please.

[riboflavin]

common coron join into our convos ur starting to become suspicous, it appears as though you are trying to stay low key, they only reason i could see to lay low in this game would be as scum or a power role e.g cop/doctor

[sirdanilot]

I've seen people play like Coron before. So far, Coron lurks, and has not posted anything at all unless prodded or suspected of lurking. When he pops in after a period of lurking, he does not post any content at all. Because they are one of his few posts, the worthless stuff he posts is overvalued and Coron continues to slide under the radar.
Coron still has his vote on his initial random vote Riboflavin, and has not expressed suspicion of anyone at all yet. He has not contributed anything to the town at all.

To prove this, I will post a quick pbpa on Coron.

Post 11: Random vote on Riboflavin. He still has his vote on Riboflavin.
Post *gasp* 55: After a long period of absence, Coron pops in and look what he has to add: Absolutely nothing at all!
Post 59: Worthless attempt at looking useful. He complains that Airhead made a post that was too long, and he summarizes it. However, he posts no thoughts or opinion about the ongoing game at all.
Post 63: Perhaps the most interesting one. He banters with Airhead about long posts vs. summaries, and then comes one of the only 'content' he has for us:

by page 3. Normally you'd have people who had only random voted still.

'Normally' implies that he is speaking about games in general rather than this game we are in now, which is scummy as that doesn't really contribute in this case. There had in fact been things going on at the time of the post, and he refuses to post any thoughts about them. That is simply anti-town and very scummy.
post 92: I think the scummyness of this post speaks for itself.

That concludes my PBPA on Coron. All in all, he has been completely worthless for this game, he has not posted any content at all, he lurks and his behavior is anti-town. He really looks very scummy to me.

unvote, vote Coron

[Y.C]

I wouldn't wagon Coron just yet for the slight chance of him being a jester.

On the other hand, I've never played with him, so he might use this kind of tactic to confuse both town AND mafia, meaning he is in a 3rd party faction of some sort.



Do any of you think there is more to this than just apathetic playing-style?

[riboflavin]

vote: coron

lets see where this gets us maybe he will be more willing to post

[Airhead]

YC, why are you troubled by my response to 78, and what basis do you have for saying my posts were nervious. I see none.

I responded to a direct question and reminded riboflavin to ask me a question. How is that nervous YC. Why do you think that is nervous.

sirdanalot we are talking past each other it seems. I don't understand how your defense is responding substantively at all. If you thought riboflaving was suspiciious then I don't see how it was pro-town to not vote him right then. If you still thought the player you unvoted was the most suspicious, I don't see why you would unvote them. You seem to be saying it doesn't matter since you voted in your next post or that my point is invalid and I don't see how either of those are true. Now you accuse me of focusing on only one player, when I have asked questions of many others. But I am focusing primarily on you -- I think that is a very effective way to judge someone's alignment -- to focus on them and make an assessment then move on if you think you are not likely scum. Your constant throwing back suspicion on my because I am suspicious of you is keeping you up there as highly scummy. It seems like a thickly veiled OMGUS.

riboflavin, for the third time, if you could answer my questions that would be very nice.

I agree that Coron should participate.

[sirdanilot]

I wouldn't wagon Coron just yet for the slight chance of him being a jester.
On the other hand, I've never played with him, so he might use this kind of tactic to confuse both town AND mafia, meaning he is in a 3rd party faction of some sort.
Do any of you think there is more to this than just apathetic playing-style?

Your post strikes me as very odd. At the time of your post, only I had my vote on him, putting Coron at a shocking (not) l-4. Even if you feared he could be a jester, you could have voted him without any danger, as long as nobody is stupid enough to put him at l-1. Expressing fear that someone is a jester is okay if they are almost at l-1, but doing so while there is only one vote on them is just very, very odd. Do you have any reason to protect Coron? What are your thoughts about the things Coron has contributed to the game? Or do you agree that he has not done anything at all in favor of the town?

Ribo, I agree that putting a bit of pressure on Coron could help to get him posting.

Airhead, unfortunately I don't have the time to reply to your post right now but I will try to do so at the next opportunity.