Mini 649-Everything comes down to money(Game Over)

[Airhead]

Sirdanalot why do you feel it necessary to say that something I called scummy of your actions is "really easy for scum to take advantage of". Why not just explain it was not scummy and leave it at that. Why do you mention scum taking advantage of things. If it is easy for scum to take advantage of such things don't you think you might have just tipped the scum off as to how get away with things easily.

lifeofpie, with 5 people needing to be voting someone to lynch, I don't think that we will accidentally lynch someone any time soon. Votes generate information, it is the only mod-recognized game mechanic that townies have at their disposal, and I think using it as much as possible is a good idea as long as your primary suspect is not near being lynched or the scum could instantly win. Particularly early in the game, it seems like votes are really useful to use.

Artem, why does my entrance warrant suspicion. Is it because I found sirdanalot's declining to use his vote suspicious.

Do you think it is OK for some players to not vote when there are nine players alive and the player with the most votes has 2. Do you think it is OK and beneficial to the town for players to not have a standing declaration of who their number one suspect is. Why do you think this.

[Natirasha]

-Y.C would be lynched at deadline-

[Artem]

@Airhead: your entrance is suspicious because you voted sirdanilot for a poor reason. Your vote would have held more merit if sirdanilot wasn't voting at the time of your post. But he was! So it appears that you're after his case for not voting during a handful of posts in the early stages of the game. To me, that's a very poor reason.

To answer your question, I think it's perfectly ok for players to not have a standing declaration of who their number one suspect is

when the game is on the freaking page 2

, and where most of the votes are still from the joke phase.

[Natirasha]

Prodding Coron

[Light-kun]

More notably, the deadline is August 21st (I believe) so your reasoning is pathetic, Airhead, until it is a few days (2, maybe 3) until dead line. As for Artem, I am loving the amateur at the moment. Hm... what else...

Nothing to say on Sirdinalot.

Nothing to say about Y.C.

Speaking of whom, anyone want to tell me what happened to make him get a few votes? Or is it just carry over from the Joke phase.

Also, Riboflavin, you're not quite off the hook, but nothing really to say there. Just noting for future reference. That is all for now. (My opinions haven't changed much.)

[Coron]

Prodding Coron

Prodding Natirasha.

[Airhead]

Artem, you have failed to demonstrate in any reasonable way that my entrance is poor, and your post #52 is evidence of this. You say it is a poor reason in part because it happened "in the early stages of the game". You then say that my reason is bad because "it is freaking page two". You seem to be suspicious of me because I tried to analyze what I had in front of me even though the game was young. If I should not take things seriously until page five, please let me know, then I'll return then and we can actually start playing, instead of having criticisms of arguments being "it is still too early in the game for arguments to be valid".

You say my attack was bad because it was for something minor and on page two -- what else am I supposed to comment on on page two. I commented on what I saw as the strongest thing so far. It seems to me if I had posted "Hi. vote: sirdanalot" I would have attracted much less suspicion from you -- discouraging analysis in that manner is highly detrimental to town success.

You also say my reason would have been better if sirdanalot had been still not voting. That is completely wrong and irrelevant to me. My issue is that he unvoted in the first place without voting someone else. There is literally no reason or need to be not voting someone at this stage, and I find his actively deciding not to do so and instead using a FoS suspicious.

Light-kun, you do not understand where I am coming from at all when you say that my reason is "pathetic" because it is not "a few days until deadline". Precisely because this is the early game, we can afford to throw votes around and by doing so leave an easy to read record of our suspicions.

Despite many people saying that my thoughts were bad, no one has given ONE good reason why a townie should not have his vote on someone at this time in the game. Give me ONE good reason why it is

more or equally beneficial

to the town for a townie to not be voting anyone than to be voting someone. I believe you cannot. Is sirdanalot definitely scum? No. But his unvoting was less beneficial to the town than continuing to vote someone, and doing actions that are less beneficial to the town is anti-town, ergo suspicious.

Coron, do you have anything of substance to contribute.

[lifeofpie]

If there was enough votes for the scum to come down and bandwagon, it would be bad in the early stages. However, I somehow think that that's unlikely to happen.

[Light-kun]

While it is unlikely happen, Life of Pie, it is important for EVERYONE to remember that no one approaches every aspect of the game quite the same way. Some people, apparently, think that not having a vote on somebody makes you scum. I am curious as to how anyone can be held to this standard, when I don't feel obligated to put my vote on anyone unless I think they are scum. Also, I think that a FoS is just fine.

Hence:

Unvote

In any case, I think Coron is starting to Active lurk. *Glares*

Minor FoS Coron.

I really hope LifeofPie isn't mafia.... Seriously, Pie is both delicious and awesome.

[Coron]

Artem, you have failed to demonstrate in any reasonable way that my entrance is poor, and your post #52 is evidence of this. You say it is a poor reason in part because it happened "in the early stages of the game". You then say that my reason is bad because "it is freaking page two". You seem to be suspicious of me because I tried to analyze what I had in front of me even though the game was young. If I should not take things seriously until page five, please let me know, then I'll return then and we can actually start playing, instead of having criticisms of arguments being "it is still too early in the game for arguments to be valid".

You say my attack was bad because it was for something minor and on page two -- what else am I supposed to comment on on page two. I commented on what I saw as the strongest thing so far. It seems to me if I had posted "Hi. vote: sirdanalot" I would have attracted much less suspicion from you -- discouraging analysis in that manner is highly detrimental to town success.

You also say my reason would have been better if sirdanalot had been still not voting. That is completely wrong and irrelevant to me. My issue is that he unvoted in the first place without voting someone else. There is literally no reason or need to be not voting someone at this stage, and I find his actively deciding not to do so and instead using a FoS suspicious.

Light-kun, you do not understand where I am coming from at all when you say that my reason is "pathetic" because it is not "a few days until deadline". Precisely because this is the early game, we can afford to throw votes around and by doing so leave an easy to read record of our suspicions.

Despite many people saying that my thoughts were bad, no one has given ONE good reason why a townie should not have his vote on someone at this time in the game. Give me ONE good reason why it is

more or equally beneficial

to the town for a townie to not be voting anyone than to be voting someone. I believe you cannot. Is sirdanalot definitely scum? No. But his unvoting was less beneficial to the town than continuing to vote someone, and doing actions that are less beneficial to the town is anti-town, ergo suspicious.

Coron, do you have anything of substance to contribute.

Do you? Because this whole post seemed like something that could have been summarized in about 3 sentences so as to not waste all my time. You mind doing that in the future?

Here's a quick summary for those who didn't bother reading all that because it looked long:

It was page 2, so there was nothing better to go on, but it was better than just random voting. At early points in the game it helps town to have votes down. If you can think of any reason to not have a vote down early in the game please get back to me. TIA.

[Airhead]

Light-kun, why do you think it is better that you are not voting rather than voting. Why should that be acceptable.

Coron, I do mind doing that in the future. Sometimes saying the same thing in a different way or different perspective is the best way to convince others, it lets them see things from their viewpoint. Summaries aren't going to convince anyone of anything.

I think your post could be summarized as "Airhead summarize more please". Why not post that if summaries are so beneficial. Really, is it true that at this point in the game, suggesting that I summarize more is the only content you have for us.

[Netlava]

I'm going to go ahead and see where this takes us. I feel that airhead's long explanation may be a case where scum over-explain their vote in the random phase.

Unvote, vote: airhead

[Natirasha]

Vote Count 3

Airhead(2): Artem, Netlava
Riboflavin(2): Coron, sirdanilot
sirdanilot(2): lifeofpie, Airhead

Riboflavin would be lynched at deadline. 5 to lynch.

[Coron]

Coron, I do mind doing that in the future. Sometimes saying the same thing in a different way or different perspective is the best way to convince others, it lets them see things from their viewpoint. Summaries aren't going to convince anyone of anything.

Needlessly wordy posts are difficult for me to get through.

I think your post could be summarized as "Airhead summarize more please".

That summary is a lot less compressed and a lot more lossy than mine.

Really, is it true that at this point in the game, suggesting that I summarize more is the only content you have for us.

by page 3. Normally you'd have people who had only random voted still.

[Artem]

I'm a little confused about Airhead's stance on her own vote.

I claimed that voting sirdanilot for not using his vote over a period of nine posts is a bad entrance into the game. Airhead then goes to great lengths of explaining why her voting sirdanilot is a great way to discourage the town from descending into an apocalyptic scenario where we're all just FoSing each other without using our votes.

Then, here I'm reading that her vote reason isn't great, but pretty good for page 2:

You say my attack was bad because it was for something minor and on page two -- what else am I supposed to comment on on page two. I commented on what I saw as the strongest thing so far. It seems to me if I had posted "Hi. vote: sirdanalot" I would have attracted much less suspicion from you -- discouraging analysis in that manner is highly detrimental to town success.

I disagree that sirdanilot unvoting was the strongest thing at the time. I also disagree that "Hi. vote: sirdanilot" would warrant less suspicion because it has even poorer reasons for the vote (i.e., no reasons at all).

And as much as Airhead is concerned with players using their votes, notice that she's

still

voting sirdanilot and not one of the terrible-terrible sinners who are not putting their votes to use.

Airhead, can you please tell us a little bit more about why you find sirdanilot scummier than some of the other suspects? I'm only assuming that you do because of your vote on him.

[riboflavin]

unvote

FoS Airhead

you all of a sudden come in and expect every1 to vote yet you offer no explanation for your's?

[sirdanilot]

If there was enough votes for the scum to come down and bandwagon, it would be bad in the early stages. However, I somehow think that that's unlikely to happen.

I wonder what you are referring to with this statement?

Anyhow, there's another point that flaws Airhead's reasoning: she hasn't referred to my defense in #47. Ignoring the defense of your suspect is a really easy scum tactic. What would a towny have to win by doing everything to make their suspect looks scummy without properly addressing the suspect's defense first? While a scummy player could do that to create a scapegoat.

FoS airhead

[riboflavin]

dont take this wrong but the same thing could be said about you sirD, you made me appear as a scapegoat for a while there

[lifeofpie]

If there was enough votes for the scum to come down and bandwagon, it would be bad in the early stages. However, I somehow think that that's unlikely to happen.

I wonder what you are referring to with this statement?

Anyhow, there's another point that flaws Airhead's reasoning: she hasn't referred to my defense in #47. Ignoring the defense of your suspect is a really easy scum tactic. What would a towny have to win by doing everything to make their suspect looks scummy without properly addressing the suspect's defense first? While a scummy player could do that to create a scapegoat.

FoS airhead

Here:

Despite many people saying that my thoughts were bad, no one has given ONE good reason why a townie should not have his vote on someone at this time in the game. Give me ONE good reason why it is

more or equally beneficial

to the town for a townie to not be voting anyone than to be voting someone. I believe you cannot. Is sirdanalot definitely scum? No. But his unvoting was less beneficial to the town than continuing to vote someone, and doing actions that are less beneficial to the town is anti-town, ergo suspicious.

I was merely stating my opinion, call it nitpicking, if you will.

[Airhead]

Netlava, why do you think what you say you think. Defending one's self is never suspicious. Ever. It is a logical fallacy to say it is.

Coron, should I just stop taking the game seriously then. It seems I am under attack because I decided to take the game seriously.

Artem, well then, what was the strongest thing at the time. Why. Also, what basis do you have for saying I would have come under more suspicion if I had placed a random vote.

I said that not voting was a scum tell, not a sure-fire indication of scum. In addition, now everyone is biased against having votes on. I've basically told a group of mostly (teenage/20s) males on the internet that they can't do something because it is bad. The natural reaction, obviously, is to ignore me and do it anyway. See posts 58, 65, etc. I encourage everyone to vote, even if it is voting me, because voting as opposed to not voting is the pro-town thing to do. The only reason you should not vote or unvote is if someone is going to be at lynch-1 or is already at lynch-1 or you are in lynch or lose, and you are not as sure as you'd like that you want them lynched.

In addition, I asked sirdanalot about his "defense" in post 50 and he still hasn't responded. I'd like to hear a response before I decide he is less suspicious. Others are now nearing sirdanalot in suspiciousness for me, but not reached him.

riboflavin, why do you say I have offered no explanation for my vote. Why do you tell sirdanalot not to take it the wrong way when you accuse him.

sirdanalot, firstly, I responded in post 50, right at the beginning, and you never addressed that. Secondly, I didn't even understand your "defense" as such -- you basically just described what happened and said your thoughts behind it. I already stated that if you thought riboflavin was suspicious you should have voted him. Your defense doesn't respond to the substance of my point. Why was it better to FOS him than vote him.

[Y.C]

I've basically told

a group of mostly (teenage/20s) males on the internet

that they can't do something because it is bad. The natural reaction, obviously, is to ignore me and do it anyway. See posts 58, 65, etc.

Airhead, by introducing an issue irrelevant to any logical considerations, intended to either vent or steer away from the subject of discussion, you are making an "appeal to emotion". This is a major scum-tell, at least as I see it.

[Airhead]

I am not asking for pity, I was rather explaining to Artem why I am much less focused on the people who have subsequently unvoted since I said I found not voting suspicious. YC how is this at all irrelevant whatsoever. How am I whatsoever steering away from the subject of discussion when I am responding to something I specifically was asked about.

[Artem]

Artem, well then, what was the strongest thing at the time. Why.

There were at least two big (for page 2) things in the discussion at that time: my comment on the mod's Aug 20th deadline for nighttalk, and sirdanilot's attack on riboflavin. (There were a few minor points on Light-Kun also.) I'm not saying that you should have jumped on one of those bandwagons, but a comment about ongoing cases would have been nice. The fact that you ignored those issues entirely and started going after something completely different (which, in my opinion, wasn't at all scummy) is what warranted the "half attempt at being useful" comment from me.

Also, what basis do you have for saying I would have come under more suspicion if I had placed a random vote.

Because "Hi vote: sirdanilot" comes across as a vote for no reason more than a random vote, especially considering that it would have been made when the game started to leave the joke-vote phase with some non-joke cases getting constructed.

[Artem]

I've basically told

a group of mostly (teenage/20s) males on the internet

that they can't do something because it is bad. The natural reaction, obviously, is to ignore me and do it anyway. See posts 58, 65, etc.

Airhead, by introducing an issue irrelevant to any logical considerations, intended to either vent or steer away from the subject of discussion, you are making an "appeal to emotion". This is a major scum-tell, at least as I see it.

I don't think it's a scum-tell but comments like that are a big no-no because of their intended demeaning of actual players, however subtle it is.

Keep the game in the game and real life in real life. I have a problem with players that can't separate the two.

[Airhead]

I meant no offense or demeaning. I am in fact quite a fan of the sex/age group I referenced . That doesn't meant that I don't think that in this case the description of typical behavior was an inaccurate one.

I don't think your bringing up what the mod posted was scummy or significant.

I don't think riboflavin's speculation was necessarily right, but I think it was plausible for him to think that, and riboflavin wasn't scummy for bringing it up. It may have been right and Light-Kun is scum but I do not feel nearly as strongly about that as I do about sirdanilot's unvoting.