Mini #582: Meta Mafia Mini! GAME OVER!

[The Fonz]

<snip>
One of the reasons I'm questioning The Fonz's claim is that my role pm sort of implies that any "night action" involves targeting. The Fonz's is simply 'activated', based on what he's told us.
<snip>

Fonz’s claim is definitely the odd one out, but I’m not sure I want to consider that suspicious, though. I mean, Stoofer’s also counts as odd in that regard.

I'm not sure, of all the things that are susp about stoofer, his claim is one of them. I mean, mathcam appeared to come up vanilla mafia. It would make perfect sense for there to be a vanilla town equivalent.

Emp, what do you make of my assessment of Stoofer/Joh and last night's actions?

[EmpTyger]

Johoohno:
You claimed to self-target. Not only was that forbidden, but logically a role like that can’t self-target. (Probably why self-targeting is not allowed in the first place.) Everyone with the possible exceptions of Stoofer and Fonz should know it, and they should be able to deduce it.

---

Fonz:
The problem is that we know Johoohno lied.

<snip>
One of the reasons I'm questioning The Fonz's claim is that my role pm sort of implies that any "night action" involves targeting. The Fonz's is simply 'activated', based on what he's told us.
<snip>

Fonz’s claim is definitely the odd one out, but I’m not sure I want to consider that suspicious, though. I mean, Stoofer’s also counts as odd in that regard.

I'm not sure, of all the things that are susp about stoofer, his claim is one of them. I mean, mathcam appeared to come up vanilla mafia. It would make perfect sense for there to be a vanilla town equivalent.

Er, that was my point- I was responding to DotS calling yours suspicious. At most 1 of {Stoofer, Fonz} is guilty, so at least 1 of you is innocent, so having an odd claim shouldn’t be considered suspicious.

Emp, what do you make of my assessment of Stoofer/Joh and last night's actions?

I’m brainstorming options, but even if myself or TSN are guilty, it doesn’t explain it, because even though that works in that Johoohno isn’t blocked, I do not see an explanation that explains all 3 of
(1) Johoohno’s lie
(2) Johoohno being voteblocked
(3) Stoofer *not* being voteblocked

Unless you also postulate that TSN or I were lying about our role. And if we’re postulating somone has a different role- it also works if you or DotS who lied.

Right now I’m doing some brainstorming, possibly futilely.

---

Stoofer:

so the mafia won’t be able to both kill and manipulate nightactions

How do we know this? I'm wondering if this is a slip.

The more I think about it, the less sure I am. But I’m having trouble fitting an extra-action-mafiakill into the same matrix of nightactions. If this was a misassumption, then I am having trouble seeing how most of the abilities would work.

[The Fonz]

Johoohno:
You claimed to self-target. Not only was that forbidden, but logically a role like that can’t self-target. (Probably why self-targeting is not allowed in the first place.) Everyone with the possible exceptions of Stoofer and Fonz should know it, and they should be able to deduce it.

Why is it deductible? Possibility of paradox? Did you receive something that stated specifically that no role in the game could self-target?

Fonz:
The problem is that we know Johoohno lied.

I don't know this, and until such point as I do know this, I don't suspect him. So, ball's in your court.

<snip>
One of the reasons I'm questioning The Fonz's claim is that my role pm sort of implies that any "night action" involves targeting. The Fonz's is simply 'activated', based on what he's told us.
<snip>

Fonz’s claim is definitely the odd one out, but I’m not sure I want to consider that suspicious, though. I mean, Stoofer’s also counts as odd in that regard.

I'm not sure, of all the things that are susp about stoofer, his claim is one of them. I mean, mathcam appeared to come up vanilla mafia. It would make perfect sense for there to be a vanilla town equivalent.

Er, that was my point- I was responding to DotS calling yours suspicious. At most 1 of {Stoofer, Fonz} is guilty, so at least 1 of you is innocent, so having an odd claim shouldn’t be considered suspicious.

Yeah, I know what you were saying.

Emp, what do you make of my assessment of Stoofer/Joh and last night's actions?

I’m brainstorming options, but even if myself or TSN are guilty, it doesn’t explain it, because even though that works in that Johoohno isn’t blocked, I do not see an explanation that explains all 3 of
(1) Johoohno’s lie
(2) Johoohno being voteblocked
(3) Stoofer *not* being voteblocked

Well, if johoohno did lie, that's got nothing to do with role actions. And as I say, at present i'm working off the 'he cannot have killed or manipulated unless one of Emp/TSN is lying' angle.

Unless you also postulate that TSN or I were lying about our role. And if we’re postulating somone has a different role- it also works if you or DotS who lied.

Nope. I'm postulating that if both you and TSN are truthful, it is impossible for either Stoofer or Joh to have done any killing OR interfering.

I'm looking, and i kinda see what you mean about the voteblock, in that it should have hit stoofer and not Joh, but i don't for the life of me see that that implicates Joh specifically in being responsible for the switching. Someone is lying somewhere. That's what it tells us.

Actually, i'm quite curious of how a target switcher can even possibly switch the targets of a player with two targets, and a player with one.

[Johoohno]

Johoohno:
You claimed to self-target. Not only was that forbidden, but logically a role like that can’t self-target. (Probably why self-targeting is not allowed in the first place.) Everyone with the possible exceptions of Stoofer and Fonz should know it, and they should be able to deduce it.

Sorry to disappoint you but in my role PM it is said that I can self target but only if I'm
[/quote]
Sorry to disappoint you, but I may self target according to my role-PM (but I must put my name first and not second - that's the only restriction).

[Johoohno]

EBWOP: Sorry about the first line after the quote, was multitasking (going back to my role-PM to check and make sure that I haven't broken any rules.

Also, where did you find that it is a rule breaking actgion to self target?

[KingPin]

I don't necessarily agree with 100% of what either Emp or Fonz are saying.

Can any player target themselves? (Besides Jo's claim that he can). Emp stated that he cannot. I cannot.

I like Jo, Fonz, or Stoof (probably 2 of them) being scum.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I cannot target myself. Its certainly odd that johoohno is saying that he can. Considering that, on top of emptyger's logic, I'd be willing to pursue a johoohno lynch.

[The Fonz]

I don't necessarily agree with 100% of what either Emp or Fonz are saying.

Can any player target themselves? (Besides Jo's claim that he can). Emp stated that he cannot. I cannot.

I like Jo, Fonz, or Stoof (probably 2 of them) being scum.

Ahem. Two of that three is basically an impossibility.

Basically, the only way that Jo or Stoof can have killed OR affected night actions, is if TSN or Emp lied.

But, of course, if one of TSN/Emp is lying, it means he's scum, which would make it impossible for any of the others you listed to be their buddy, unless we've got four scum.

[KingPin]

@ Fonz

Jo could be scum. Suppose you have lied about your role. You have a target altering role. You use your ability and then claim ignorance. I do not have proof of that. But I also don't believe your role claim either.

THEORY:

Suppose mathcam was telling the truth. Suppose he had the ability to revive roles. But suppose that his scum buddies are without a role to start with and that as roles die off he could resurrect that role to a scum buddy. This may account for the misdirection of targets last night. It also fits with the "meta" nature of the game.

To tell you the truth, I like this theory a LOT.

Feel free to discuss.

[The Fonz]

@ Fonz

Jo could be scum. Suppose you have lied about your role. You have a target altering role. You use your ability and then claim ignorance. I do not have proof of that. But I also don't believe your role claim either.

One would think, in the counterfactual situation where I did have a target altering ability, it would be simpler just to claim it.

THEORY:

Suppose mathcam was telling the truth. Suppose he had the ability to revive roles. But suppose that his scum buddies are without a role to start with and that as roles die off he could resurrect that role to a scum buddy. This may account for the misdirection of targets last night. It also fits with the "meta" nature of the game.

To tell you the truth, I like this theory a LOT.

Feel free to discuss.

|I think it goes against the surest info we have. Namely, the mod's revelations after death. There was no indication mathcam had a power of any kind.

[KingPin]

Fonz, I was hoping that someone would bring that up. It seems to me that if we had a "serial role killer" that this would explain the vanillafied scum mathcam.

Oh and the surest info that we have would necessarily presume that mafia do not have roles, and therefore, no night choices. If you don't have a role with a night choice, pretty easy to find you and make the case for you being scum. Do you make night choices Fonz? Now then, if you were given a role from the dead, that would explain the attempt at claiming a role with no actual night choices, but still being able to screw night actions up.

[Johoohno]

THEORY:

Suppose mathcam was telling the truth. Suppose he had the ability to revive roles. But suppose that his scum buddies are without a role to start with and that as roles die off he could resurrect that role to a scum buddy. This may account for the misdirection of targets last night. It also fits with the "meta" nature of the game.

To tell you the truth, I like this theory a LOT.

Feel free to discuss.

|I think it goes against the surest info we have. Namely, the mod's revelations after death. There was no indication mathcam had a power of any kind.

Yeah, that caught my eye too. While I was waiting for TSS to edit the second post I PMed him to do just that in order for me to make my night choices with full knowledge of mathcam's role.

I think we have four people eligible for votes and lynches today:

• DotS:
  Motive: could actually have been the killer of Greasy Spot N1, and then redirected his scum buddy (mathcam) N1 to leave a trace of doing good while framing mathcam (if it would come to claims?). He also says that the answer to find scum isn't in the night targets in post 720. His claimed actions the last night are unconfirmable.
  
• EmpTyger:
  His claimed actions the last night are unconfirmable.
  
• The Fonz:
  His claimed actions the last night are unconfirmable. It is very convenient to have a one shot action that you want to keep hidden in order to "help" town. (I see this as a possible good thing for either side Fonz is on, but we don't know his alignment or role through any night actions so far).
  
• TSN:
  Motive: roleblocked me N1 and again N2 it seems (a townie target switcher is lethal to have in game if you're scum). His claimed actions the last night are unconfirmable.

The following players are (in my eyes) clear of any mischieavous actions from last night:

• Johoohno:
  Cleared since my actions has caused visible disturbances all nights and can't be a killer yet.
  
• KingPin:
  Cleared since his actions has been visible all nights and then he can't be a killer yet.
  
• Mr. Stoofer:
  Probably cleared by night choices (since two people targetted him the last night and we can't have them both AND him being scum!

Once again this is a late night posting, I hope I got everything where it was supposed to be.

[The Fonz]

I'd like to know how all your choices are 'visible' Joh. AS far as I can see, part of the whole point of the setup is that pretty much only the kills and the vote manipulations are 'visible.'

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Motive: roleblocked me N1 and again N2 it seems (a townie target switcher is lethal to have in game if you're scum). His claimed actions the last night are unconfirmable.

I was targeting people I thought likely to be mafia. If I were interested in targeting people based on problematic night abilities, I'd have put you first, or maybe DoTS, as opposed to the vanilla townie.

I'm feeling the same way about the fonz. The problem is, of course, is that what he's doing is the protown play if he really is a one-shot mirror, but it would also be very convenient for him as scum.

[EmpTyger]

Adding a 4th item: all theories also need to explain
1) Johoohno’s lie
2) Johoohno being voteblocked
3) Stoofer *not* being voteblocked
4) massive dying

I’m feeling increasingly unsure that it’s possible to explain all 4 given the information we have. I think I may want to reread and see what jumps out knowing mathcam/Johoohno, and take another look at that early Stoofer/mathcam/Johoohno hypothesis I had.

---

KingPin:

<snip>
It seems to me that if we had a "serial role killer" that this would explain the vanillafied scum mathcam.
<snip>

The SK nailing mafia that accurately seems a little too coincidental, but I suppose it’s possible. I was also waiting on mathcam’s reveal; I’m not sure what to make of it. Seeing how Johoohno shows up might be useful, although we need to plan for tonight before that.

---

Fonz:
Are you just referring to how EmpTyger + TSN results in Johoohno and Stoofer being blocked?

1) If DotS or you lied about your role, there could be interference somehow. Possibly Stoofer too, given how something is not adding up. Possible brainstormed roles: some kind of randomizer (possibly one-shot), some kind of killing+other effect role, similar to what mathcam was clumsily trying to claim, something similar to an existing role.

2) But more simply, from N2, it seems that if Johoohno and TSN target each other, Johoohno gets priority. In which case it becomes:
EmpTyger doubles TSN. TSN targets Stoofer, Johoohno. KingPin targets Stoofer.
Johoohno switches TSN and KingPin.
TSN targets Stoofer. KingPin targets Stoofer, Johoohno.
Stoofer gets roleblocked, voteblocked. Johoohno gets voteblocked.

Actually this seems like it has to be how Johoohno got voteblocked. If Johoohno is mafia with X, then it just doesn’t seem to make sense that X would target Johoohno, and then Johoohno would switch X and KingPin so that he himself were voteblocked. (Which would be a point in TSN’s favor.)

This still needs to explain why Stoofer wasn’t voteblocked, but we had that problem to begin with anyway.

[Johoohno]

@ Fonz

:

• N0 I am the reason EmpTyger didn't have any vote (KingPin says he didn't make a choice, Primate targeted EmpTyger) - This can't be explained away since Primate's ability was a deflector and must have been switched away from Emp in order to remove his vote.
  
• N1 Massive got upset since I had switched his and TSN's targets (giving me the extra vote instead of KingPin as he had planned).
  
• N2 I should have been voteblocked but was roleblocked (since I switched TSN & KingPin).

[Johoohno]

EBWOP: It's supposed to be the other way around in the last item: ... roleblocked but was voteblocked ...

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Possibly stoofer, as the vanilla townie, cannot be affected by those sort of abilities?

[Mr Stoofer]

Well there is nothing to that effect in my role PM. Of course it is impossible to switch/deflect/block my "action"; but would I really be a Vanilla Townie (as stated in my role PM) if I was immune to (for example) voteblocking?

[EmpTyger]

Still haven’t yet a chance to reread.

---

KingPin:
Assuming you’re right about mneme vanillafying mathcam one night, what’s your theory about mneme’s action the other night?

---

TSN:

Possibly stoofer, as the vanilla townie, cannot be affected by those sort of abilities?

I don’t really like this theory. Fonz has already claimed an ability that prevents those sorts of abilities affecting him. Why would a vanilla ability work similarly without saying so?

---

Johoohno:
You’re confirmed mafia, so feel free to ignore this, but, what did you think the result of switching your and my targets would be?

[Mr Stoofer]

Mod

: please could we have a vote count.

EmpTyger

: Just to make sure I have understood it properly, please could you set out in a single post why Johoohno is "confirmed mafia". The reason I ask is that there is so much going on I am not sure anyone can be that confident that they have accounted for all possibilities.

[Johoohno]

@ EmpTyger:

Here’s how I think it would work:

Example:
Let's say that I switch me (primary) and EmpTyger (secondary). Let's also say that Emptyger is a vote thief and that his plan is to steal Stoofer's vote and give it to KingPin.

Result:
In that situation, I would take EmpTyger's top choice (let's say, Stoofer) and he would take mine. I would switch the targets of Stoofer and EmpTyger; Stoofer's target if any would lose a vote and KingPin would gain it; and (since EmpTyger has now chosen me and been target-switched with Stoofer) Stoofer's action if any would happen to me.

Now, it get's a lot more complex if you target me at the same time. Not really sure how that would work.

[EmpTyger]

Stoofer:

Mod

: please could we have a vote count.

EmpTyger

: Just to make sure I have understood it properly, please could you set out in a single post why Johoohno is "confirmed mafia". The reason I ask is that there is so much going on I am not sure anyone can be that confident that they have accounted for all possibilities.

Sorry, but not yet. There’s no rush, and right now, I’m more concerned with catching whoever Johoohno’s partner is than lynching Johoohno himself.

(No one’s voting.)

---

Johoohno:
So, to activate your secondary ability, were you relying on lying mafia? Or would I be telling the truth and targeting you- and there’s your “it gets a lot more complex”?

[Johoohno]

I'm not sure about you at all (especially since you yourself also pick a secondary target, which got me thinking that you know some one else able to force that one out as well - it seems as a lot of us got some kind of weird twist on our role).

[KingPin]

KingPin:
Assuming you’re right about mneme vanillafying mathcam one night, what’s your theory about mneme’s action the other night?

My theory is this for mneme: He has an ability to strip the players of their roles. Then he has the ability to kill a player by targeting someone without a role. This seems to make sense in light of the claim that mathcam made. None of it is confirmable by the way. So the problem remains who did mneme target the first night.

I would assume that if a townie was targeted and lost their role and had knowledge of it, they would have stated that fact. We have no information that this happened. Instead, we have players that have claimed roles and have claimed that they can still use their ability at night. Which leaves us with these possibilities: 1. The player still believes that their role is intact (i.e. has no knowledge they lost their ability); or 2. The player has lied; or 3. mneme was extremely lucky and targeted scum on the first two nights (probably should fit in with number 2).

I see no reason to believe that mneme is the best scum hunter ever, so it must leave us with the town either not knowing abut their abilities being lost or mneme not using (or blocked) his ability.

The other thing that gets me is mathcam's insistence that he had a role. If he was just plain mafia, then this game should be over, lynch Stoofer and Fonz. Both have made claims that suggest no night action. Everyone else is able to confirm night actions, with the exception of Emp at this point. (I say that because it is hard to prove your role from the information that we have.)
___________________________________________________________

As for Johoohno, I believe he is lying about his targets last night. I don't believe that he could target himself. What would the outcome be? He switches targets with another player, his new target would not suffer any consequential outcome. Then Jo is targeted by someone else. How much sense does this make? He is intentionally putting himself in harms way of another player, alliance unknown.

In addition to that, my action could easily be used on myself, however, I WAS TOLD NOT TO TARGET MYSELF.

This would go against my theory regarding scum as posted in a previous post.

And lastly, there is something about The Fonz that is really gnawing at me. I can only think that his role and "no night targets" suggests a flaw either in game design or in claiming this role. One shot mirror. Seems useful or completely useless. How do you mirror a target switch? Or a target redirect?

Just some random thoughts that I had this weekend.