mini #585 - A Tempest Has Formed (Over), Thanks Patrick!!

[Alabaska J]

Why do you think hes town?

I don't necessarily. Getting a neutral read.

[populartajo]

Why do you think hes town?

I don't necessarily. Getting a neutral read.

Quotes?

[Alabaska J]

Why do you think hes town?

I don't necessarily. Getting a neutral read.

Quotes?

Really? Quotes that don't point town or scum one way or the other? Is that for real?

[populartajo]

Yeh..I'm thinking AJ Matt scum and Poro SK.

Why not Skruffs
Fuck. Eveyone is so scummy.

[Xtoxm]

Nah I changed my mind on that one.

[populartajo]

Nah I changed my mind on that one.

?

[populartajo]

Ok since Im dying tonight, I did a reread and came to the conclusion that Skruffs is 100% scum. Even before, when ashmite was in the game I can see a strange relation between him, posteriorky his sucesor Skruffs, and Alvinz. Specially ignoring him when he was doing scummy things and jumping in another easy targets at the time like Cream.
I can see if he has an answer to some question Iamusername posted D2.

Also, I meant to ask earlier, Skruffs; when you placed alvinz as top three scummiest, what was your reasoning for doing so? Why did you find him suspicious at that time?

He refers to this post. The context is that Skruffs is defending MM, (prob earning some townie points)

My scumlist:
Matt_S
Cream147
Alvinz95

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:10 am for reference.
...........
The SK is either Alabaska or Xtoxm, maybe Matt. Ive been thinking lately in Ala since Im really geting protown vibes from Xtoxm and really bad vibes from Alabaska.
.........
This would leave Poro, Matt and Cream as possible scumpartners. Since Poro was Evilgorrilaz I see this impossible. I find it very strange that Poro isnt posting but Evilgorrilaz was pretty townie at the last stages of D1. Im hoping for his posts.
.......
Cream is V/LA and we really need him posting. I dont see him as scum since he was the easy target for Skruffs and Alvinz almost all D1. But theres the tiny possibility of he being the SK.

Hopefully the NKs help us more.

But in all the possible scenarios, my verdict is :

Scum : Skruffs.
Please more votes on him.

[populartajo]

Also, Mod VC
and in case unvote vote: Skruffs

[Matt_S]

Wait a sec, are you accusing Skruffs of being the serial killer and voting him? I thought we established that it's a bad thing to do. Or do you think there's only one mafia left?

I also remember seeing Skruffs suggest a massclaim which I keep forgetting to comment on. I don't care either way.

[Patrick]

Votecount

Alabaska J (2) -- Porochaz, Xtoxm
Skruffs (1) -- populartajo

Not voting: Matt_S, Cream147, Skruffs, Alabaska J
7 alive, 4 to lynch.

Prodded Cream147.

[Porochaz]

Why do you think hes town?

I don't necessarily. Getting a neutral read.

Quotes?

Really? Quotes that don't point town or scum one way or the other? Is that for real?

(driunk) you know I look at this and it seems like a really easy way out, he doesnt want to give quotes that suggest he gets a neutral read so he gets off scot free. In my opinion that is suspicous, I dont know who Im voting for currently but there is definetly some suspicion from my eyes on ALABASKA j

[Porochaz]

ok I apologise and the vote count was directly before mine as well, howev my point stands. I would quite like to see sorta analysis from AJ

[Skruffs]

Hmmm.
I want everyone to weigh in on the mass claim idea.
Yes I am most suspicious of Matt_S. Alabaska J is just off the charts with how oppurtunistic he has been. HE really reeks of mafia who is trying to get a mislynch on anyone for an automatic win.
PopularTajo, your vote on me is ridiculous. If you are really the lover and town, and you have actually analyzed my quotes, then you should be able to tell that I have already soft claimed. Several other players have. Why don't you unvote me so that the mafia and SK can't quick lynch me to ensure that ONE of the scum groups gets a win?

[Cream147]

Hello. I'm here.

[Alabaska J]

Skruffs is scum. Check this out:

This is interesting to me. I don't know if this is a tell or not, so I will broadcast this out and see what others think. The argument that bad logic just confuses the town - I'm just trying to put my finger on it.

I guess what I got out of this was the idea that, scum know who town are and are trying to get other townies to lynch town. Townies, though, do not know who anyone else is. So in effect, scum have the advantage, especially day one, of knowing which wagons are actually dangerous on scum and which ones are helpful to them. Townies have no way of knowing wether the case they have on someone is good or bad until the person is lynched and their role revealed. So on day one, especially, when one player is criticizing another for not having 'good logic' or a good case, I tend to look at the criticizer - because it means they might have ingame knowledge.

Hmm, yeah, that sounds reasonable. Hey, Skruffs seemed awfully certain that Mellowed Man was town yesterday, didn't he?

I was Awfully Certain that mellowed man was being run up for hte same predictable behavior that he has always had, as now_a_Ranger, Miss Piggy, etc. I stated in thread that I was metaing him and that the case against him was weak - I even attacked Alvinz, and two other players, for being hypocritical in voting him for no reason other than to vote him.

Yet we didn't know he was an alt of NAR at the time, so this is invalid IMO. Also, you state yet another reason to vote alvinz here, but you still didn't vote him.

I also said that I Was not sure that he was town. It would hurt your case to quote that, so I will for you:

Alvinz, do you have any reason to think the mafia have a roleblocker?

MM:

You are the "Day 1 Scum lynch", the player that everyone finds easiest to lynch day one because they make no sense. I don't think vote hopping on day one is a scum tell, so I don't agree with the case on you. It has nothing to do with you being scum or town; the players voting you are exhibiting behavior that

I

think is scummier than yours.

I don't remember any cop claims, when did that happen? Coheed's a cop? Okay.

I'm willing to vote Alvinz just for somehow thinking the mafia would have a roleblocker.

Again, showing us another reason to vote alvinz, and yet you never voted him. I also am not sure where you state he is not town here…you basically said you didn't want to vote him because the case is a null-tell, but you never say "I'm not sure you are town." Besides saying that doesn't mean anything really. You could still be scum trying to stay off of the "easy day one lynch" to look good.

Continuing on...

---

Let's also take a look at his interactions with alvinz.

Skruffs says in this post that alvinz is in his top 3 scummiest players (in third place, natch), but I don't think I ever saw Skruffs explain what he found scummy about alvinz. In fact, the only thing he's said regarding alvinz's alignment up to this point comes in his very first (real) post in the game:

alvin95 - your post 42 really seems to cover all the bases. You agree that EG is scummy for something, and then defend the reason he had for doing it; it sounds like you are trying to convince yourself and/or explain something to children as you explain why the wagons can be good. Wagoning is effectively a tool of the brutish against the quiet.
-56 - this seems like less of a safety post. My guess is you are town.

Interesting. Skruffs then decides that "either Coheed or popular is the vote for the day", despite neither of these players appearing in that top three just now.

I called for a lynch of those two, because both of those players were under the most suspicion,a dn the game was lagging. Even the mod was lagging out. Players were complaining and interest in teh game was waning. I pushed for one of those two lynches because getting the day to a night situation would help spur interest in the game. I believe your opinion of players has shifted through the game, as well - does focusing on more than one player at a time indicate scumminess? Day one, I as town do not have a concrete idea of the factions - something that I pointed out yesterday, too. It was my biggest defense of MM's vote hopping that vote hopping day one is not a scum tell. Changing your mind, or agreeing to other people's lynches, is not a scum tell. Only the SCUM know who the scum is for sure on day one - everyone else should be flexible.

Someone calls him out on this, naturally, and he explains:

I was pretty sure that my top three were cream, matt, and alvins, but

alvins is the only one that more than one player is interested in

,a dn the day is going on long enough that players are startign to lose interest. Me sayign tha tPop. or CC had to be lynched today and now was to restart the game, to get rid of applayer that is negatively contributing (IE trying to get the town to carry them) and get hte game on.

So, why was popular/Coheed the vote for the day and not alvinz, again?

Well, at the time I said that Coheed and POpTAjo was the vote for the day, Coheed and poptajo were both trying to get other players to find reasons to vote for other people without offering reasons of their own. OF the three people that I was suspicious of (as I explained), only alvinz had ANY other interest from anyone else in the game - but coheed and poptajo were actively sapping the life out of the game, and alvinz wasn't. I directed attention at the two of them to get them reengaged in the game - either by getting them to start contributing (remember how I got angry at you for giving people "off the hook" excuses for idling out of the game constantly? CC was one of those people), or to get one of them lynched so that the remaining players in teh game wouldn't have to carry dead weight on their shoulders. You yourself voted Coheed for that very reason. SUrely you remember why you thought COheed was scummy at that time?[/quote]

This sounds like BS to me. You are saying you think it is better to lurker vote than vote for your top suspicion? I could possibly buy this but you never vote for alvinz, even after Coheed claims cop and your vote on pop is obviously not doing anything.

I'm willing to vote Alvinz just for somehow thinking the mafia would have a roleblocker.

And yet no vote. That won't fly.

I pointed out that Alvinz had information about the mafia having a roleblocker, which led to him being lynched. I only had one other post in this game after that post, welcoming someone to the game, and then the day was over. I didn't get a *chance* to vote alvinz. I completely missed the entire, "iamausername is bussing me" conversation, etc, etc. I was busy being lynched in another game and my attention was focussed ont hat one, at that time.

I think that the remaining scum are prrrrrrobably you, and matt_s. MAtt_S more than you, but you are definitely up there.

For example:
When you voted alvinz, you said that it was due to him 'knowing' that the two claims are probably true - which doesn't really make sense. Unless you also 'knew' that the claims were true - and yet you also deliberately suggested that it was unlikely both claims were true, but that a night passing would reveal the truth.

You also said that the points against alvinz had already been said, but the only points I found were from nearly a month earlier, when you asked Alvinz why he thought what he was doing was helpful for town, sinec it wasn't scum hunting. You said that his OMGUS playstyuling meant he was either scum trying to intimidate town or he was just hot headed town, which isn't very persuasive.

I don't see where you stated your reason to vote Alvinz, even though you cite previous reasons FOR that vote. Alvinz called you out as bussing him, and sliding an untraceable vote onto him to make yourself look townish sounds exactly like that. However, I am using alvinz accusation s of you as bussing him as a correlary point, not a prime one. I try not to use caught scum's confessions as meat for attacking people with.

Matt_S is still high on my list for trying to get MM lynched because he couldn't be 'proved' town.

Then he makes an OMGUS-inspired case on iamausername (who we know now was town). Also, speculating about the time thing is WIFOM, but your vote on pop wasn't doing anything when the alvinz wagon started to gain steam, and you were active then, so why wait to switch until the last moment? Also, you could've voted alvinz in that same post (which would seem like the logical thing to do if you were town), and yet you didn't.

vote: Skruffs

[Cream147]

Matt, I would like to inform you that this isn't my first game as scum (don't take that to be a slip saying that I am scum, just not for the first time, I just can't express myself any better). In 2 finished games I have been in scum, in neither have I had any arguments with my scumpartner, certainly not in the same way as my argument with Alvinz. I'll give you links if you wan them.

On the Skruffs issue, I really am not sure.

Hmmm.
I want everyone to weigh in on the mass claim idea.
Yes I am most suspicious of Matt_S. Alabaska J is just off the charts with how oppurtunistic he has been. HE really reeks of mafia who is trying to get a mislynch on anyone for an automatic win.
PopularTajo, your vote on me is ridiculous. If you are really the lover and town, and you have actually analyzed my quotes, then you should be able to tell that I have already soft claimed. Several other players have. Why don't you unvote me so that the mafia and SK can't quick lynch me to ensure that ONE of the scum groups gets a win?

I don't understand where Skruffs is coming from here...does that make me scum? I hope not...I'd better reread Skruffs' recent posts. Either way, I'd suggest that Alabaska voting for Skruffs after that was a foolish foolish thing to do and Skruffs may just be getting the right read off of him.

I'm neither for or against a massclaim.

[Matt_S]

Matt, I would like to inform you that this isn't my first game as scum (don't take that to be a slip saying that I am scum, just not for the first time, I just can't express myself any better). In 2 finished games I have been in scum, in neither have I had any arguments with my scumpartner, certainly not in the same way as my argument with Alvinz. I'll give you links if you wan them.

I'll believe that without the links.

Then that leaves me with porochaz and Alabaska J, possibly Skruffs if people can explain how he's not the serial killer. And for some reason, I had thought that populartajo thought Skruffs was the SK, but I don't know how I thought that, so ignore my previous post. Sorry for any confusion I caused to anyone other than myself.

[populartajo]

How can you people be so blind? Read Alvinz post in isolation and you are going to get that the only person that makes sense as a scumpartner is Skruffs.
Sigh, lets do this.

People alive and their relations with Alvinz the Godfather

Alabaska J replaces Marmalade

Alvinz came up with a "scum communicating in thread" theory involving me and Marmalade at the beginning of D1. Marmalade didnt post much but at some time he suspected Alvinz. Then Alabaska replaced and came up with his Elias-Alvinz-Tajo theory. Soon after the wagon that finished in the nurse claim began.
Conclusion : Not many links. The attacks can be bussing though, taking in count that at one analysis Alvinz made, he attacked me for subtly suspecting him and left Marmalade when he was doing the same.

Cream147

Now pretty obvious here. Cream and Alvinz attacked each other to the point where one of them had to be scum. Alvinz was extremely sincere when attacking Cream and the later too.
Conclusion : not scumpartner.

Matt_S replaces Hypatia

Hypatia was a pretty strange player. I had a bad feeling about her. When Matt replaced he attacked me and then backtracked when I showed him that Cream was pretty suspicious for just being agressive against Alvinz. Alvinz FoSed him after his first post.
Conclusion: Not many links. The attacks can be bussing though. Theres however one thing that makes me think that Matt isnt the scumpartner. Skruffs had a suspicious top 3 and he put Matt at the top, followed by Cream and finally Alvinz.

populartajo

Im the lover dying tonight.

Porochaz replaces Evilgorrilaz

Evilgorrilaz was the easy target for Alvinz. All the attacks against him are from the typical scum trying to lynch the most suspicious player.
Conclusion : not scumparnter

Skruffs replaces ashmite84

Scumparnter. I have already said too much about you. Ignoring Alvinz scummyness, jumping against silly details, questions that dont have answers yet. Alvinz NEVER attacked you and your only attack agains thim was a "Im willing to vote him because for thinking that somehw the mafia have a roleblocker" when a player like you would have already destroyed that scumbag.
I sincerely cant believe how blind I was about you. Iamusername was so right about you.

Xtoxm replaces Gaspode

Gaspode attacked Alvinz all D1. And he seemed pretty sincere. However Alvinz almost ignored Gaspode all D1. This can be related to the fact that Gaspode didnt post much or that he was indeed difficult to attack sine almost all players thought he was the most townie of all.
Conclusion : Not possible scumpartner. Small possibility of bussing.

As usual theres the possibility of me being wrong so Skruffs if you want to claim, claim now.

[Alabaska J]

Cream, did you even read my post.

[Porochaz]

Back soon. Still endorse the A J lynch, will read up on Skruffs though.

[Skruffs]

Skruffs is scum. Check this out:

This is interesting to me. I don't know if this is a tell or not, so I will broadcast this out and see what others think. The argument that bad logic just confuses the town - I'm just trying to put my finger on it.

I guess what I got out of this was the idea that, scum know who town are and are trying to get other townies to lynch town. Townies, though, do not know who anyone else is. So in effect, scum have the advantage, especially day one, of knowing which wagons are actually dangerous on scum and which ones are helpful to them. Townies have no way of knowing wether the case they have on someone is good or bad until the person is lynched and their role revealed. So on day one, especially, when one player is criticizing another for not having 'good logic' or a good case, I tend to look at the criticizer - because it means they might have ingame knowledge.

Hmm, yeah, that sounds reasonable. Hey, Skruffs seemed awfully certain that Mellowed Man was town yesterday, didn't he?

I was Awfully Certain that mellowed man was being run up for hte same predictable behavior that he has always had, as now_a_Ranger, Miss Piggy, etc. I stated in thread that I was metaing him and that the case against him was weak - I even attacked Alvinz, and two other players, for being hypocritical in voting him for no reason other than to vote him.

Yet we didn't know he was an alt of NAR at the time, so this is invalid IMO. Also, you state yet another reason to vote alvinz here, but you still didn't vote him.

YOU didn't know. *I* did. I SAID I DID.

I also said that I Was not sure that he was town. It would hurt your case to quote that, so I will for you:

Alvinz, do you have any reason to think the mafia have a roleblocker?

MM:

You are the "Day 1 Scum lynch", the player that everyone finds easiest to lynch day one because they make no sense. I don't think vote hopping on day one is a scum tell, so I don't agree with the case on you. It has nothing to do with you being scum or town; the players voting you are exhibiting behavior that

I

think is scummier than yours.

I don't remember any cop claims, when did that happen? Coheed's a cop? Okay.

I'm willing to vote Alvinz just for somehow thinking the mafia would have a roleblocker.

Again, showing us another reason to vote alvinz, and yet you never voted him. I also am not sure where you state he is not town here…you basically said you didn't want to vote him because the case is a null-tell, but you never say "I'm not sure you are town." Besides saying that doesn't mean anything really. You could still be scum trying to stay off of the "easy day one lynch" to look good.

I pointed out Alvinz' slip, but did not vote him. First of all, I was not quite sure if he meant "Scum have a roleblocker" or "Scum might have a roleblocker because there can only be one of each role" - however, if I was scum, it would make much, MUCH more sense NOT TO BRING his slip up AT ALL. When he finally claimed nurse, he was lynched before I even read the game, I did not even know the day was over and that he had been lynched until day two had started.

If I wanted to "Look Good", why in the FUCK WOULD I try to ASSOCIATE myself with NAR?!?!?!?!!?

This sounds like BS to me. You are saying you think it is better to lurker vote than vote for your top suspicion? I could possibly buy this but you never vote for alvinz, even after Coheed claims cop and your vote on pop is obviously not doing anything.

Interesting that you would try to say this about me, when you have voted me for being the SK And yet are still trying to push a wagon on me rather than trying to find mafia. Right? Am I wrong here?

Then he makes an OMGUS-inspired case on iamausername (who we know now was town). Also, speculating about the time thing is WIFOM, but your vote on pop wasn't doing anything when the alvinz wagon started to gain steam, and you were active then, so why wait to switch until the last moment? Also, you could've voted alvinz in that same post (which would seem like the logical thing to do if you were town), and yet you didn't.

Okay. The biggest beef you have (And pop too) is that I must be the SK because Iamausername posted a case against me, which I did not respond to before the day ended (How did the day end so fast again? Wasn't it because Elias was lynched? Was I on that lynch? No? Who was? Who hammered?)
and then I, as scum, must have killed iamausername to "Silence the opposition".
That is not how I play as scum.
First of lal, it's stupid, as IAmausername was most vehemently against me; so killing him leads right to me. Secondly, if I didn't answer his argument yesterday "INTENTIONALLY", it's still going to be there TODAY, and with his death, would make OTHER playeres want me to answer it. No. It's bad playing.

PopularTajop

: I am town and if you unvote me, I will claim. Alabaka J is one of the scum, and if there was a three man mafia, then I could be quicklynched at any point for a guaranteed scum win. If I get quicklynched, it will be because you are voting me, right now, even though I have claimed that if you unvote me I will claim. You should infer by this that I am worried that if I claim, I will be quicklynched, which should tell you already what I am.[/b]

[Alabaska J]

Back soon. Still endorse the A J lynch, will read up on Skruffs though.

hey guys i found the sk it's the guy who is acitvely lurking the fuck out of this game :/

[Alabaska J]

If I unvote will you claim?

[Matt_S]

If I unvote will you claim?

Considering that Skruffs thinks you're scum, I doubt it. Will the full claim change your mind any more than the soft claim did?

[Skruffs]

Alabaska j: considering you asked, rather than actually doing it (which would have been the more pro-town-seeming thing to do), why should I not think you are not waiting for the other (presumably 2) scum to finish me off?

Poptaj: have you really considered the credibility of your case? Wether you think I amm Mafia who intentionally outed but then refused to vote my buddy or you think I am an sk who killed the one person who's death makes me look the most suspicious, who incidentally was also acussing me of being mafia, it doesn't make sense.