Open 779: Pick Your Power X/Y Game Over!

[skitter30]

I'm also baffled by the jv scumreads

[skitter30]

*townreads, sorry
I dont get why people think he's townie. He's nai at best imo

[Cat Scratch Fever]

As scum, a neighborizer/FV is a good pick if you are 3rd in line, so your obligation to your partner is fulfilled.

I didn't follow this

I think there are much better picks for scum than neighborizer. it's not a great pick for town but also more likely to come from town

and I have seen 2nd town in draft pick neighborizer omega lul

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think JV is still prob town based on their scumgames. I think they tend to have trouble coming up with scumreads early as scum and their early scumreads on Melody and you (skitter) reminds me more of their towngame.

I would like to see updated reads from them though

[Cat Scratch Fever]

quickly went thru the wagon on aldus

drew is in that sweet scum spot where they can just hop on and he does have scum potential in his iso let me go quote it

Ico where are you at with your reads? What did you think of brass's vote on aldus esp in contrast to drew's?

[Elmo TeH AzN]

Votecount 1.06

Doctor Drew (3)

- Iconeum, Datisi, Farkset

Alduskkel (4)

- Melody, Cat Scratch Fever, Doctor Drew, Brassherald

Melody (2)

- JacksonVirgo, Alduskkel,

Alimdia (1)

- DonCorleone,

Brassherald (2)

- Dunnstral, DoctorPepper

Farkset (1)

- Skitter30,

Not Voting (0):
With 14 Alive, 8 Votes To Lynch.

Deadline is in: (expired on 2020-05-23 08:00:00)

[/b]

[alimdia]

VOTE: Brass

[Farkset]

I really don't follow how neighborizer is a good town role or a bad scum pick as 3rd, but there's too many people disagreeing with me for them to be all scum, so i guess i'm lacking experience with this setup and i will concede the point.

VOTE: aldus

-Farkran

[Dunnstral]

It's a bad scum pick because there are a lot of stronger mechanical roles to pick and Doctor Drew does not fit my image of a highly charismatic scum player who manipulates people in the pt (and even then, going for it at position 3 over other stuff is not worth it)

As for being a good town role, eh I never said. Just that I can believe that he'd pick it as town

[skitter30]

guuuuuuys there's like two days left and we're so far off from being anywhere near a consensus

[Melody]

Pretty sure a consensus is gathering on Aldu.

@alim: Why Brass?

~Dawn

[skitter30]

and yeah that seems like a slow march to a mislynch
literally nobody has given a convincing argument for why he's scum and i'm incredibly skeptical of this wagon and how it's being pushed

[Melody]

Pedit: also disagree, i don't know or care that drew likes having a PT so much as to pick a useless role instead of attempting to have an active part of town winning. As scum, a neighborizer/FV is a good pick if you are 3rd in line, so your obligation to your partner is fulfilled.

I want to talk more about this, Fark. Not to defend Drew but to get into your thoughts/reasoning. Why do you "not care" that Drew likes having a PT so much? It explains why he'd pick neighbouriser over going for a stronger option, so why disregard that?

And why is neighbouriser a good 3rd pick over jailkeeper/redirector/roleblocker/vig...etc? Explain why the pocketing value of one is higher than the mechanical benefits that come with the other PRs I just mentioned.

~Dawn

[Melody]

*good 3rd pick for scum over

~Dawn

[Dunnstral]

I think a brassherald lynch shows potential

[Dunnstral]

Actually, I'm pretty neutral on him all in all

[Melody]

Fark, I read through a Jacko scum game and he's perfectly capable of pushing out reads from the offset. He had a similar pocketing read too.

Looking through his entrance this game again, his first 5 posts are all pushing the angle he's completely clueless and has no idea what he's doing, I'm not sure if it's disingenuous but the amount he pushes it makes it a little scummy. His conversation with me where he doesn't understand how his entrance if genuine is not NAI does feel like he's playing dumb though.

~Dawn

[Farkset]

Pedit: also disagree, i don't know or care that drew likes having a PT so much as to pick a useless role instead of attempting to have an active part of town winning. As scum, a neighborizer/FV is a good pick if you are 3rd in line, so your obligation to your partner is fulfilled.

I want to talk more about this, Fark. Not to defend Drew but to get into your thoughts/reasoning. Why do you "not care" that Drew likes having a PT so much? It explains why he'd pick neighbouriser over going for a stronger option, so why disregard that?

And why is neighbouriser a good 3rd pick over jailkeeper/redirector/roleblocker/vig...etc? Explain why the pocketing value of one is higher than the mechanical benefits that come with the other PRs I just mentioned.

~Dawn

Ok, let's talk a bit about this, because i have been talked down by 3-4 people for it and i haven't understood why - some of you guys have better experience with this setup (i.e. dunn said town has picked neighborizer as 2nd pick in the past, etc), so i dropped the point, but i still don't see why town would pick that and why scum would avoid that. While argumenting my position keep in mind that i have soft mech info against their pick (803) and that i find drew iso scummy by itself regardless of role, which are non-irrelevant reasons for why i think drew claim is not worthy of being saved today. Two (or three) coincidences doesn't make evidence, but it does make a case against him in my opinion.

1)

Why would you pick neighborizer as town, 3rd position?

I wouldn't know. Neighborizer is pretty much unanimously agreed to be a poor role, in all games i have played. It has very little utility as an investigation tool, some say that it's a bit scumsided because scum is better at pocketing their hoodmates than town are good at scumreading hoodmates, but that's not my point here, i just agree with those who say that Neighborizer is bad. In my mind, if i am town, my best bet would be to actively contribute towards the town victory condition via better roles, but even if i didn't want to risk going for the consensus best picks (because i have people above me), i would never pick neighborizer. Literally never. I would much rather try to understand what the players above me have picked and play as VT than safely get a useless role. But that's me - this argument has been countered by other people's experience so i don't have much else to say.

2)

Why would you pick neighborizer as scum, 3rd position?

As i already said, there are TWO things that neighborizer/FV do better than all the other roles, and those are A. provability, B. NK distancing. Neighborizer produces a hard-provable result without having to deliver information. You can always prove that you are a neighborizer, but your action does not compromise your scum wincon in any way, and nobody will kill you for being a neighborizer, because you will never be a threat. It's an excellent scum pick, i don't see any reason why it wouldn't. Skitter "factual" objection can be broke down this way:

Case A) You are the last scum alive in lylo
- You don't care because there is only one night left, so you don't need to neighborize, if you survive the day you win

Case B) You are the last scum alive the day before lylo
- That night there will be 4 people alive including you. If you are a town neighborizer, you have a 33% chance to target the dead guy. Scum would claim neighborized on the dead guy and town will have to pick between a 33% chance failed PR and the other VT claims.

Case C) You are the last scum alive several days before lylo
- 1. Chances are you are screwed anyways because town has at least 2 random mislynches to make and the odds are against you
- 2. You can STILL claim that you neighborized the dead guy at least once
- 3. But, more than everything else, you don't plan your game against this specific scenario, because it's the absolute worst position you could be in and it's inefficient to base your strategy on the worst case

only

.

As of this, i can definitely see a world where scum got 3rd pick and two low picks and they claim neighborizer/VT/VT, OR a world where a scum low pick is the real neighborizer and his drdrew partner picked something better.

---

Now, based on 812 and other personal opinions, what would be a

better

pick for a scum 3rd picker?

- Rolecop certainly has more utility for them, but is it a pick that would make you be townread? UB maybe, but not rolecop
- Cop, vig, jk/track might have already been taken
- Doc/RB would probably be your best alternative, but roleblocker is also a very scummy pick imo
- Com/Watcher is meh, maybe second best alternative but still weak

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Now, talking about the other candidates...

I don't know what else to say about alduskkel. If he is town, the wagon is kinda bad but the worst position is again DrDrew, closely followed by brassherald. I already said why i townlean melody and Cat recently, and won't change my mind before a flip-based reassessment

Iconeum slot is bad, i don't have experience with either of the players that filled it, but gameflaking is meh and when iconeum replaced in it was not improving, until he was prodded for it and (re)started the wagon on drew. Not a good position if drew is town, not a good position if aldus is scum. I am not voting towards ico because i want other flips first.

Brassherald is a weak townlean for me. The only scummy part of his iso is 736 and that's never enough for me to lynch him today over aldus

Jacksonvirgo, maybe. But i see very little reason to lynch the 1st picker today, set aside the fact that it'd be a very lowvalue lynch given how the day progressed.

-Farkran

[Melody]

Hmm, I still disagree. Your 1) doesn't address my point that you're not factoring in the bias others may have, and you're looking at it from your own subjective viewpoint. Drew enjoys being in hoods, he has prioritised fun over giving town their best chance of winning. Why disregard that and look at it solely from a competitive viewpoint, despite evidence suggesting that you really shouldn't?

Going for neighboruiser as 3rd pick as scum because of fear that jk/rb/redirector/1-shot vig/vengeful

might

be taken is also weak reasoning, you get your pick like 80% of the time, especially if you factor in that jk/cop will be more popular for no1/2 slots, so going for the other 3 is safer. Also, why is rb a scummy pick? Scum doesn't pick rb and claim rb; they claim doc instead.

~Dawn

[Melody]

i have soft mech info against their pick (803)

What do you mean by this btw? Are you saying scum would fakeclaim neighbouriser and so knowing you didn't pick and get it is a positive for Drew?

~Dawn

[Melody]

Wait, you said "against". So you're saying you can't verify the fact his claim his true because you didn't specifically pick neighbouriser and fail to get it. That implies scum!Drew would be stupid enough to fakeclaim neighbouriser for whatever reason when he has no way of knowing whether a townie picked it up. I don't get it.

~Dawn

[Farkset]

Going for neighboruiser as 3rd pick as scum because of fear that jk/rb/redirector/1-shot vig/vengeful

might

be taken is also weak reasoning, you get your pick like 80% of the time, especially if you factor in that jk/cop will be more popular for no1/2 slots, so going for the other 3 is safer.

Nice to meet you, i will introduce myself: i'm 4th in line and i failed my pick :>

But other than that, i explained why those roles are dangerous for scum in my post above. If you have even a weak reason to avoid those, you should use that reason ti avoid them and pick something else.

Also, why is rb a scummy pick? Scum doesn't pick rb and claim rb; they claim doc instead.

~Dawn

How would you use your rb power then, when you are immediately outed as a liar when town learns that a roleblock happened?

-Farkran

Fixed Tags

[Farkset]

God i hate bbcode from mobile

As for believing drew claim or not, he does not have to be the neighborizer to avoid counterclaims, as long as one of his partners is the real neighborizer

But that's not the main point - i do not expect town to pick neighborizer as 3rd pick, that was why i countered the claim with the info i have

-F

[skitter30]

i don't get how your info is soft mech info against his pick

and again STOP SAYING WHAT YOU DID OR DID NOT PICK AND WHETHER OR NOT YOU WERE SUCCESFUL