Open 80 - Double Day Mafia (Game Over!)

[Knight of Cydonia]

less talking about Corin and more voting Corin would be a very good thing to do here

Um... what? So, basically, you want us to lynch Corin with no further discussion, and to completely ignore the fact that K7 has been a lot worse this day, and throughout the whole game? I can appreciate if you want Corin lynched, but this sounds a bit like you just want everyone to jump on your burgeoning wagon without thinking about it.
I've posted my big PBPA on K7 a couple of pages back - how about you do one on Corinthian? That way we can weigh up the two arguments.

SHE'LL BE COMIN' 'ROUND THE MOUNTAIN WHEN SHE COMES

killa seven - 5 (TheSweatpantsNinja, Knight of Cydonia, SpyreX, Corinthian, orangepenguin)
Corinthian - 3 (StrangerCoug, LlamaFluff, Firestarter)
Manito - 2 (FaerieLord, killa seven)
Firestarter - 2 (armlx, CF Riot)
FaerieLord - 1 (Manito)
armlx - 1 (LaptopGun)

Not Voting - Joubert

15 alive, 8 to lynch.

-Mod

[armlx]

I've posted my big PBPA on K7 a couple of pages back - how about you do one on Corinthian? That way we can weigh up the two arguments.

I like this.

[Knight of Cydonia]

I mean, I can understnad wanting to get Corin to be a bit more vocal and to answer questions, but he could have RL issues which are more important right now, in which case he should be replaced, rather than lynched, and to be hoenst, the only points I can see against Corin right now are:
- Lurking (Not as much as K7, but still, yeah, fair enough.)
- Avoiding Questions (K7 is just as guilty of this is my opinion - he's only ever answered the minor points of my PBPA, nothing about the way he was pushing for forbiddan to be lynched whether or not she was scum)

But hey, if you can prove me wrong, go for it.

[LlamaFluff]

I've posted my big PBPA on K7 a couple of pages back - how about you do one on Corinthian? That way we can weigh up the two arguments.

Well I *did* do a case when I replaced in at post 392. Which everyone chose to ignore. If you really want me to though I can do a PBPA of Corin too, there arent many posts of his to go over.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Well, if there isn't much to go over, it should be easy for you to find this damning evidence you keep going on about - and seeing as we're now at 853, I think you should have a lot more to go on from Corin anyway since 392 - that's almost 500 posts.

[LlamaFluff]

Corin PBPA (To go along with case in 392) -

my comments in italics

0 - random vote
1 - confused with random stage, sees no armix wagon
2 - says scum can be lynched D1
3 - unvotes with no reasoning
4 - doesnt like K7s vote of fl
5 - doesnt like fl actions
6 - says fl never had a plan, votes fl
7 - starts siding with fl that FS is twisting her words, brings up FS-fl scum pair, brings up town tunnel vision.

This post bugs me. I think it has to do with what Corin said in the beginning of it. That was "fl calls me pro-town". To scum, having a player think you are town is great, and you want them to stick around to help defend you. This feels like what Corin thought about in regards to fl. Up untill this point, he seemed to be wanting a fl lynch, but now he is starting to turn around. He opens doors to FS lynch, he opens doors to get off the fl lynch, and by calling tunnel vision trys to get people to look elsewhere.

8 - metas gimbo, FoS on FL for tunnel vision on fl (who he still is voting)

I dont like this FoS, it sets up a case on FL for if fl flips town. Also Corin is voting for fl, so why would he care if FL wants to get her lynched?

9 - agrees with manito and continues putting out reasoning for an FL vote

This is still sitting uneasy with me. It feels like at this point Corin is getting the 1.5 lynch all lined up. He has given up pressuring fl and has moved on to going for someone who is pressuring fl at the time.

10 - Comments on manito/FL debate while still voting fl. Asks fl and FS to weigh in on that debate.

11 - WIFOMs fl self-hammer debate. Questions K7s disapearance.

12 - Votes FL for wanting fl lynched to move the game along.

This feels like what he was setting up near the end of D1 with posts 8 and 9. During the end of D1 Corin spent more time putting pressure on FL for his stance on fl then he did pushing fl for actually being scummy. Now that fl flipped town, he jumps right in on FL. The main question though here is "Why did he pressure FL D1 for thinking his scum pick was scum?"

13 - Ignores my case and doesnt like me voting

14 - more posting promise

15 - Still ignores my case, pushes FL. Says the meta is pure WIFOM and should be ignored in this case.

16 - More ignoring me, more hating on meta

17 - More hating on me for trying to get a response to a case

18 - Argues how mafia vote

He has voted with a group this whole game, just how mafia are "supposed" to vote according to him

19 - Votes K7

I dont know why we havent lynched this guy at this point. During most of D1, who is he pushing? FL. During D1.5, who is he pushing? FL. What happens when wagons are changing? He abandons the lynch he has supported since seemingly midway through D1 to get on the wagon which is nearing a lynch. If this isnt scum looking for an easy lynch I dont know what it. I gurantee K7 getting lynched and flipping town will find Corin right back on the FL wagon tomorrow.

So yeah, any further questions on why Corin should be getting lynched instead of K7? He has been setting up a FL lynch forever which he recently abandoned in light of a easier wagon, he refuses to answer my cases against him, he dismisses most arguments that defend his suspects, he is obv scum.

[Knight of Cydonia]

...Okay, that looks fairly good to me, actually. I can't see anything there that stands out as town-tells, to be honest. I'm willing to go with a Corin lynch today, but I want K7's head tomorrow.

[SpyreX]

So yeah, any further questions on why Corin should be getting lynched instead of K7? He has been setting up a FL lynch forever which he recently abandoned in light of a easier wagon, he refuses to answer my cases against him, he dismisses most arguments that defend his suspects, he is obv scum.

I saw FL acting funny "forever" and although not forgotten, I have moved my vote to K7 because, although I feel FL is scum, there was no way to make that happen today and K7 HAS been scummy.

Does that make me scum?

[LlamaFluff]

So yeah, any further questions on why Corin should be getting lynched instead of K7? He has been setting up a FL lynch forever which he recently abandoned in light of a easier wagon, he refuses to answer my cases against him, he dismisses most arguments that defend his suspects, he is obv scum.

I saw FL acting funny "forever" and although not forgotten, I have moved my vote to K7 because, although I feel FL is scum, there was no way to make that happen today and K7 HAS been scummy.

Does that make me scum?

Nope, it makes you a little more suspicious to me but I watched your progression of changing votes and it makes sense. Corin went from full out pushing of FL to dropping that case and jumping on K7 out of nowhere. Its not the action alone, its the events surrounding and what led up to the action that play a major part in determining if its scum driven or not.

[CF Riot]

FS if you think Arm is dodging your questions it's not my responsibility to bust him for it. I don't think he was, but like I said it's your squabble not mine. I've never meta'd anyone in my life. I haven't even completed any games on this site either, so I'm the last person that needs to be making opinions based on how someone "usually" acts. I'd like to note that you're saying you don't like meta and want Armlx to disregard it for K7, but you're

asking

him to use it on you. ???

As I pointed out in my PBPA, he also at two points in Day 1 implies that he knows fobiddan isn't town.

No he doesn't. What happened to saying he was steering the Forbid lynch? You decided not to use that anymore since I pointed out he wasn't?

Simple... My overview over K7's behavior is that he uses very bad grammar and syntax, and that he's quite nonchalant about the game, with a few insignificant posts scattered through and

witty remarks

...

I took this to mean sarcasm/joking that doesn't apply to the game. I was referring to your read of K7, not my own. You also did not answer the question. From where you stand, do you see scum or town?

JOUBERT, answer please! This question is 6 pages old.

LF: I like the run down on Corin. The problem is I want other lynches, and while what you have on Corin is good, there isn't much of it. I want to see what (if anything) Corin will say in his defense. If we get some decent interaction from that I'll make a move. If he doesn't weigh in with some decent content at all, I'll take that as good enough too.

[Joubert]

I'm not sure if I should vote K7, or give any opinion, because I need to give my reasons, or, in other words, create a new reason by scratching the bottom of the barrel. I can't just use other people's reasoning and say I agree. If I do that, I may be suspected...

And no, Armlx, WIFOM cannot be that safe EVER. It's always the benefit of the doubt casted on the player in question. A player can always change behavior, for an entire game, for any reason. You can't follow on that safely. Another reason why you can't rely on Metas is the possibility of Post Restrictions...

[SpyreX]

I'm not sure if I should vote K7, or give any opinion, because I need to give my reasons, or, in other words, create a new reason by scratching the bottom of the barrel. I can't just use other people's reasoning and say I agree.

If I do that, I may be suspected...

What?

What?

It shouldn't be hard to get an opinion and move ahead with it - and, of course, chances are there will be SOME overlap but lord, it shouldn't be a parroted case. Why the hell would you worry that much about suspicion?

FoS: Joubert

- Seriously man.

[CF Riot]

You already gave your reasons, they're in my quote. I want to know if you're saying he's scum or he's just annoying town. This is a major question dodge by you. Again.

FoSsy FoSsy

[Firestarter]

FS if you think Arm is dodging your questions it's not my responsibility to bust him for it. I don't think he was, but like I said it's your squabble not mine. I've never meta'd anyone in my life. I haven't even completed any games on this site either, so I'm the last person that needs to be making opinions based on how someone "usually" acts. I'd like to note that you're saying you don't like meta and want Armlx to disregard it for K7, but you're

asking

him to use it on you. ???

No, thats incorrect...

Ill be consistent with my play and not bother with meta's...

However, armlx is not being consistent if he is willing to clear K7 on his meta, and think Im scum without reading my previously completed game...

In any case, Im not bothered if he does or not....

_________________________________________________________

Im gonna echo Spyrex' post about meta's, they seem to be determining how this game is filled....

If we were to go on meta's, we'd only need 1 post each.

I prefer to play each game on its own merits, and not that of others.

Yes, they may help, but to clear/suspect anyone because of their meta is ludicrous....

[Firestarter]

EBWOP...

Yes, they may help, but to clear/suspect anyone because of their meta is ludicrous....

Thats worded wrong....

To clear anyone on their meta is ludicrous, whereas suspecting someone from their meta has its merits.

[CF Riot]

No, thats incorrect...

Incorrect how?

That is, has armlx read my only previously completed game??

If he had, he may have a different read on me

, and I invite you to do so too CFR, seeing as you place some interest in Meta's with your dismissing remark about me not thinking they are relevant.

You ARE asking him to meta you, with the reasoning that you hope it will change his mind about you. You ARE apparently at least a little bothered by whether he uses it.

[armlx]

And no, Armlx, WIFOM cannot be that safe EVER. It's always the benefit of the doubt casted on the player in question. A player can always change behavior, for an entire game, for any reason. You can't follow on that safely. Another reason why you can't rely on Metas is the possibility of Post Restrictions...

No, its not. Once the meta is used once, then its WIFOM. But until the player is made aware of it, it is valid. And post restrictions do not apply here, so irrel.

However, armlx is not being consistent if he is willing to clear K7 on his meta, and think Im scum without reading my previously completed game...

K7 is an example of an EXTREME meta that vastly changes what is and isn't scummy behavior for him. Yours is CLEARLY not and to figure out what your specific scum/town tells are takes a lot larger sample size then 1 game, or even the 5 or so I have on K7.

If we were to go on meta's, we'd only need 1 post each.

False.

[SpyreX]

I know we've went over this before, but if your meta is "being scummy" then your meta is worthless and can not be used as a shield.

What if I decided to never post more than one line and always throw the hammer down if I had the option. That -could- be a meta, but if it was I would be justified in getting killed for it a million times.

[Firestarter]

However, armlx is not being consistent if he is willing to clear K7 on his meta, and think Im scum without reading my previously completed game...

K7 is an example of an EXTREME meta that vastly changes what is and isn't scummy behavior for him. Yours is CLEARLY not and to figure out what your specific scum/town tells are takes a lot larger sample size then 1 game, or even the 5 or so I have on K7.

If we were to go on meta's, we'd only need 1 post each.

False.

Ok, I see what your getting at with the first part of your post, but it still SHOULD NOT be a viable means to clear a player in a different game.
You see K7's meta as a viable reason to clear him, I dont buy it.

The 2nd part to your post...
Dont take what I said about a game having one post by every player serious, of course after each player picks the one person they believe to be scum based on their meta, a concensus would need to be reached, etc, etc, etc...
The point Im making is that there would be no point in playing this, if all anyone ever went on was someone's meta.

No, thats incorrect...

Incorrect how?

That is, has armlx read my only previously completed game??

If he had, he may have a different read on me

, and I invite you to do so too CFR, seeing as you place some interest in Meta's with your dismissing remark about me not thinking they are relevant.

You ARE asking him to meta you, with the reasoning that you hope it will change his mind about you. You ARE apparently at least a little bothered by whether he uses it.

Im not bothered by the fact my meta isn't being used by armlx, Im bothered that he's willing to clear K7 on his.

Do you agree with armlx regarding K7?

I know we've went over this before, but if your meta is "being scummy" then your meta is worthless and can not be used as a shield.

What if I decided to never post more than one line and always throw the hammer down if I had the option. That -could- be a meta, but if it was I would be justified in getting killed for it a million times.

QFT...

[armlx]

Ok, I see what your getting at with the first part of your post, but it still SHOULD NOT be a viable means to clear a player in a different game.

I am not clearing him. I am simply saying his behavior you are labeling as scummy does not fall under the necessarily scummy category for him.

Do you still want my opinion on the comparison between your posts here and in War in Heaven?

[Firestarter]

If you feel it necessary, fire away.

Let me guess, you think Im scum based on that... surprise!

TBH, this meta-dance is wearing quite thin.

[armlx]

Let me guess, you think Im scum based on that... surprise!

I do. In that game, you did none of the thing I mainly suspect you for. When you joined a wagon you didn't later wash out of it for no reason while continuing to debase and not defend that person.

[Firestarter]

Oh, really?

_____________________

[Note the visible line Im drawing under this...]

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Please prod Corinthian.

[armlx]

Oh, really?

_____________________

[Note the visible line Im drawing under this...]

Does this mean something? Show me where in that game you did the things I am attacking you for here, which could imply that they are not scummy behaviors by your meta.