Mini 611 - Troy, Meet Helen (Game Over)

[Macavenger]

There are many posts on the past couple pages that are not in any way helping to lynch Walnut. This is very disappointing.

Walnut, saying you've been useful doesn't make it so. You contributed essentially nothing to helping find the scum on Day 1. You posted a lot of stuff about mafia in general, speculation, etc., in an attempt to look useful, but you didn't help find scum. Only scum have incentive to behave that way.

if we were to lynch Charter and he were to be revealed as scum, I would advocate a Macavenger lynch on Day3.

So now you're lining up lynches too? Seriously, you need to work on your scum play. You're making it way too obvious.

[ShadowGirl]

I shall be on vacation from the 27th to the 8th.

[Thesp]

Thesp, could you elaborate at all about how you came to the conclusion that you are paranoid and not simply of unknown sanity?

My flavor suggests that I am unsure of whom to trust as a direct result of recent events.

This would be an excellent choice. If you are scum and make the kill, the tracker follows you to a dead body. (This very much could've happened) If you are scum and did not make the kill, the tracker sees you do not take a target, and can refute your cop result if you give one. If you are cop and select someone, the tracker sees who you picked and verifies that it matches your result today to strengthen your unknown/paranoid result. Tell me one reason why a tracker should not pick you.

I think you're missing the point - there's no way I'm gonig to make it to the endgame. I'm goign to be killed by the mafia eventually (presuming I'm town) or found out eventually (if I'm mafia). Why not get info on other players (when there's plenty on, and to come from, me)?

CF Riot, do you think I should be lynched today?

There are many posts on the past couple pages that are not in any way helping to lynch Walnut. This is very disappointing.

I like you.

I'd really like to run up Farkshinsoup or Tinsley today. I do not mind the Walnut hate.

Nonvoters, get moving. I'd also like to hear if anyone seriously wants to lynch me today. If not, I acknowledge that my result from last night is suspect (though at least partly confirmed by the mod), and I'd like you to talk about things that will actually move somewhere.

PPE flash of thought: I might not be paranoid after all. The mod said re: cop results on dead people, "Plus, the results are on the next day's opening day flavor text", which may imply that the reason I wouldn't receive a result is because it would be redundant. I may be reading too much into that. Carry on with lynching.

[Farkshinsoup]

I'd also like to hear if anyone seriously wants to lynch me today.

Not today. If you are scum there are others out there, and I think that there is enough there to believe that you may be town, and possibly be a useful cop as well. I feel good with a Charter lynch, but I still owe Walnut a thorough reread.

Tomorrow may be your day, though.

[CF Riot]

A tracker isn't like a cop by the info they gain. Picking someone out of the town will give 3/10 chance of hitting scum (as of last night). But for a tracker, whether or not they get a result isn't a sign of whether or not they hit scum, as a positive result could also be a town role like cop or doc. So by this logic, the chance that their night action would lead to discerning a person's role must be less than 3/10. However given the circumstances of last night, if a tracker had selected you, no matter what result they got back it would be very strong evidence towards verified cop or busted scum. Of course in Mafia nothing can be considered 100%, but a track on you would've been almost guaranteed to verify your alignment. Even if you are the cop, verifying your role is almost as beneficial to the town as eliminating a scum.

You're also saying there's plenty of info on you. What info is that? Your predecessor was extremely scummy D1. You replaced in and promptly jumped on a bandwagon to put Netlava at L-1 without any questions or cases for him. Then you vanish until today where the cop result we were all waiting for was "I tracked the dead guy, but I didn't get a result." To me you are the biggest question mark in the game.

As for lynching you today, I feel like there are other good suspects to pursue, but it all depends on your play. If there are glaring reasons to vote you out I'm not going to give it a day just because you claimed something. I'm a little wary about two people already chiming in to say "Leave Thesp alone today and tomorrow we'll really think about it." However since Mizzy did confirm that a real cop wouldn't have gotten a result in your situation, I agree it would make sense to see what happens tomorrow.

[Macavenger]

Just realized looking back through the thread that I missed a question from Tinsley earlier.

Now that Batt has turned up as townie, where do you stand on CF Riot?

Not totally sure what to think of Riot now. I don't think Battousai flipping town clears him in any way. The odd behavior I saw from him towards Battousai could have been scum trying to drum up a case on a townie as much as it could have been distancing. I'm still suspicious of him, but still less so than I am others.

Sorry I missed answering that a while back.

I'd also like to hear if anyone seriously wants to lynch me today.

Is your name Walnut?

PPE flash of thought: I might not be paranoid after all. The mod said re: cop results on dead people, "Plus, the results are on the next day's opening day flavor text", which may imply that the reason I wouldn't receive a result is because it would be redundant. I may be reading too much into that. Carry on with lynching.

Could equally mean the mod doesn't want to give you any extra help in figuring out your sanity, I would think.

[Macavenger]

ABWOP: Thesp, as far as I can tell, the cases we have on Walnut and farside/fark are fairly similar; both appearing to post but not really scumhunting and whatnot - could you explain why you think farside's case of it was worse than Walnut's? I get more of a "look at me, I'm useful! I'm useful! No, really!" vibe from Walnut (even before he started saying that literally), but more of a "I don't have enough time" feeling from farsie.

[Tinsley]

There are many posts on the past couple pages that are not in any way helping to lynch Walnut. This is very disappointing.

Nonvoters, get moving.

I don't understand the rush. Even if Walnut is scum, we still have his scumbuddies to find, and we can gain some insight into them before we make a lynch.

I'd really like to run up Farkshinsoup or Tinsley today. I do not mind the Walnut hate.

I'm still waiting to hear your case against me.

I'd also like to hear if anyone seriously wants to lynch me today.

I'm on the fence here. If you are in fact the cop and we lynched you, we'd probably seal our fate. But I can't get over the fact that you had the opportunity to investigate your suspicions, and instead you chose someone you had little info on (by the way, wouldn't ShadowGirl have been a better choice in that regard?) You think you're doomed to be killed eventually, so why not investigate the people you find most suspicious to be helpful toward the town?

[Tinsley]

ABWOP: I'm still waiting to hear Walnut's reaction to Thesp's investigation.

I'm still suspicious of him, but still less so than I am others.

Who are the others you are referring to?

[camn]

Whew!

I am laid up on percocet.. and I just pulled a re-read.

Thus, I

Vote Charter

why?

General scumminess.. short posts, wishy-washy accusations.. and these:

I'll just requote my posts from yesterday... Prepare yourself.

This is insane to me. Quoting a huge block of yourself... just to say "look, I posted already! I don't need to anymore!!" Weak Sauce.

All aboard.

This after ONE vote.

That's fine if you don't want to argue, but then shouldn't you be doing something other than nothing (by that I mean just commenting on stuff)?

This is kind of weird.. because on casual inspection, charter has, like, 25 single-line posts. Posts that I would totally characterize as 'just commenting'

[Lord Gurgi]

Macavenger sure seems a lot more gung-ho today.

I'm curious about Thesp and Macavenger's thoughts about Charter.

All aboard.

- After one vote seems suspicious to me. So I'm just going to 'hop aboard' and

Vote: charter

.

What's with all the Walnut hate and the lack of votes on him anyway?

[camn]

Beat you, LG

[Lord Gurgi]

Darn you with a possibly malign fire.

[Tinsley]

Charter actually had two votes on him at the time.

Mod - I think you missed Walnut's vote on charter in the last vote count.

So I believe that means charter is at L-2 now right?

[Macavenger]

I don't understand the rush. Even if Walnut is scum, we still have his scumbuddies to find, and we can gain some insight into them before we make a lynch.

Best way to find the buddies is with a wagon. With a wagon on Walnut, we force them to take a position on the issue. Until then, they can just kind of let it slide, and not have to interact much.

There's also the issue that Day 1 ran 19 pages, which is well past the point of diminishing returns for town, getting into the area of just making rereads harder. A quick Day 2 isn't really detrimental after that, especially when we have a clear choice for it.

But I can't get over the fact that you had the opportunity to investigate your suspicions, and instead you chose someone you had little info on (by the way, wouldn't ShadowGirl have been a better choice in that regard?) You think you're doomed to be killed eventually, so why not investigate the people you find most suspicious to be helpful toward the town?

Investigating the scummiest players is not good cop play most of the time. Clearing innocents is in many cases just as helpful as finding scum (Read some of Yos2's thoughts on this in mafia discussion, if you want - he actually feels the main purpose of cops is to clear townies, not find scum). Battousai was definitely a good cop target, in my opinion. The only thing sketchy about Thesp having investigated Battousai is that Battousai turned up dead, which Thesp may or may not have had any control over.

Who are the others you are referring to?

Walnut naturally, and also Shadowgirl who I talked about earlier. Possibly Fark, depending on what I see from him and Thesp soon.

General scumminess.. short posts, wishy-washy accusations.. and these:

What is general scumminess? Why are short posts scummy? Were they low on content, or just short? Where was he wishy washy? I've seen him be pretty direct and committed on Walnut.

This is insane to me. Quoting a huge block of yourself... just to say "look, I posted already! I don't need to anymore!!" Weak Sauce.

Why? Was there something wrong with his arguments from yesterday? They were all still quite applicable, in my opinion... justify why this was lame.

@camn and LG - why is charter saying all aboard scummy?

[camn]

The insane part is RE-quoting yourself. If I didn't get it the first time... One should rephrase. It would be like me posting the EXACT same thing in response to YOUR question!

Wishy washy... like this:

I don't like Netlava's reaction to Thesp's declaration he's scum.

BUT

I had my suspicions that Netlava was town.

Not totally scummy on its own.. but in contrast to his assertions like this:

It is so painfully obvious Walnut is scum.

..
It seems wishy washy to me.

And Short comments seem suspect IN LIGHT of him calling out others for the same

That's fine if you don't want to argue, but then shouldn't you be doing something other than nothing (by that I mean just commenting on stuff)?

It seems like a lot of Charter's posts are merely comments.
It is this inconsistency that earns my attention.

The "All Aboard" seemed funny considering we thought he only had ONE vote. But I see now there was 2.. so that is less suspect.

c

[Macavenger]

The insane part is RE-quoting yourself. If I didn't get it the first time... One should rephrase. It would be like me posting the EXACT same thing in response to YOUR question!

Ok, so you don't think it's the best way to communicate the information. Why is it scummy?

Wishy washy... like this:

I don't like Netlava's reaction to Thesp's declaration he's scum.

BUT

I had my suspicions that Netlava was town.

Not totally scummy on its own.. but in contrast to his assertions like this:

It is so painfully obvious Walnut is scum.

..
It seems wishy washy to me.

How is that wishy washy in any way? He has different opinions on different players? I mean... this is like a total non sequitur.

And Short comments seem suspect IN LIGHT of him calling out others for the same

That's fine if you don't want to argue, but then shouldn't you be doing something other than nothing (by that I mean just commenting on stuff)?

It seems like a lot of Charter's posts are merely comments.
It is this inconsistency that earns my attention.

This is possibly valid. Considering that he has been posting sizable and useful content with some frequency, I would consider it minor, though.

The "All Aboard" seemed funny considering we thought he only had ONE vote. But I see now there was 2.. so that is less suspect.

Why would it be suspicious if there were only one vote on him?

[camn]

Points taken. I am on percocet, so I take my reasoning with a grain of salt for the next couple days

[Mizzy]

Vote Count:

Walnut 2 (charter, Macavenger)
Farkshinsoup 1 (Thesp)
charter 4 (Walnut, Farkshinsoup, camn, Lord Gurgi)

Not Voting:

ShadowGirl, CF Riot, Tinsley

10 Alive = 6 to lynch!

[Walnut]

ABWOP: I'm still waiting to hear Walnut's reaction to Thesp's investigation.

I thought I had answered this in #522, but looking back I see that my answer was not specifically about his investigation, but more about whether I thought he was scummy, which I do. The thing about this is that it is the best result to claim if you are scum, as it is unprovable. If he is town, then it is just really bad luck to have picked the guy who got killed. I don't think we should lynch him today though, as there is little harm in letting him live while we are all aware of him, and on the off chance that he really is a townie who got unlucky, he may get something useful tonight.

There's also the issue that Day 1 ran 19 pages, which is well past the point of diminishing returns for town, getting into the area of just making rereads harder. A quick Day 2 isn't really detrimental after that, especially when we have a clear choice for it.

Apparently the clear choice is Charter. Do you still favor the quick Day 2?

[Thesp]

A tracker isn't like a cop by the info they gain. Picking someone out of the town will give 3/10 chance of hitting scum (as of last night). But for a tracker, whether or not they get a result isn't a sign of whether or not they hit scum, as a positive result could also be a town role like cop or doc. So by this logic, the chance that their night action would lead to discerning a person's role must be less than 3/10. However given the circumstances of last night, if a tracker had selected you, no matter what result they got back it would be very strong evidence towards verified cop or busted scum. Of course in Mafia nothing can be considered 100%, but a track on you would've been almost guaranteed to verify your alignment. Even if you are the cop, verifying your role is almost as beneficial to the town as eliminating a scum.

I think you're missing my point: I'm going to die by the endgame, so my alignment is not as important as someone else's alignment (especially since a tracker is the most potent weapon against potential SKs).

I don't understand the rush. Even if Walnut is scum, we still have his scumbuddies to find, and we can gain some insight into them before we make a lynch.

I don't understand the need to

wait

. We're getting plenty of info already, and at some point, we need to just do it and lynch some poor sucker. If we keep waiting and waiting for "more info", eventually we get deadlined and do a rush job of things. Let's suppose we force it now, and Walnut makes a mason claim, or something equally clearable. Where do we go from there? If we've spent the whole day piddling around, not only is there a whole mess of posts to wade through, but time may be against us (and undoubtedly scum will exploit that). There's already plenty to draw insight from.

Stop stalling us and vote for someone.

Investigating the scummiest players is not good cop play most of the time. Clearing innocents is in many cases just as helpful as finding scum (Read some of Yos2's thoughts on this in mafia discussion, if you want - he actually feels the main purpose of cops is to clear townies, not find scum).

Yosarian2 agrees with me on this. It's also particularly notable that often vigs will hit the "scummiest person", making such investigations worthless. (I can go over the math and some scenarios if it will help, but I feel this is detracting from the business at hand.)

I just reviewed Walnut's posts, and I'm not wild about his proposed lynch. It's a tolerable one, but I think there are betters out there. The walls of text in re-reading are eye-bleeding, by the way. I'm not really wild about a charter lynch, I just think he's wrong on things more than he's scum.

[Lord Gurgi]

It seemed scummy to me because it is a resigned way of saying, 'Screw this, there's nothing I can do, why do I even bother.' That is in no way pro-town. Neither is self-hammering.

[Farkshinsoup]

I shall be on vacation from the 27th to the 8th.

That's nearly 2 weeks. Are you expecting to not have any internet access during that time?

Just want to know what to expect, because we could possibly have lynched someone by then and be through the next night and into Day 3 by the time you get back.

[charter]

Ok, Fark wanted a condensed case of why I think Walnut is scum. So I take a few of my posts that show this and requote them. I took his asking for my case to mean not quoting them all. He was really vague with asking, and when I gave him what I interpreted him asking for, I'm scum. Camn, I didn't quote those posts for you, I didn't quote them for LG, or Thesp, or Mac, or anyone but fark. If you want me to give a summary of why Walnut is scum, ask me and I'll do it. I don't know why you say something like

The insane part is RE-quoting yourself. If I didn't get it the first time... One should rephrase. It would be like me posting the EXACT same thing in response to YOUR question!

When I'm obviously not directing them at you. I don't know if you actually think I'm scummy, or you're just looking for the easy bandwagon.

Wishy washy... like this:

I don't like Netlava's reaction to Thesp's declaration he's scum.

BUT

I had my suspicions that Netlava was town.

Not totally scummy on its own.. but in contrast to his assertions like this:

It is so painfully obvious Walnut is scum.

..
It seems wishy washy to me.

Ok, so I wasn't sure about Netlava yesterday, and I am about Walnut. How is that wishy washy? I wasn't positive Netlava was town yesterday (like I am with Walnut) so I'm not going to make assertions that he is. You are trying to take your being wrong about him and twist it to make me look bad.

And Short comments seem suspect IN LIGHT of him calling out others for the same

That's fine if you don't want to argue, but then shouldn't you be doing something other than nothing (by that I mean just commenting on stuff)?

Ummm, I'm already voting someone. This isn't the same situation.

Jeez, Mac is like my knight in shining armor haha.

It seemed scummy to me because it is a resigned way of saying, 'Screw this, there's nothing I can do, why do I even bother.' That is in no way pro-town. Neither is self-hammering.

Fark's big reason for voting me was that I quoted some of my posts. Other reasons are all like "I don't like how charter does this" or "charter said something scummy on page 5".

I think I might actually be ok with a Fark lynch if anyone else but thesp thinks he's scummy, or an LG lynch. Else I'll just stick with Walnut. However, I'm not sure if Fark making a poor case against me is scummier than LG and camn's jumping on it with even poorer reasoning.

[CF Riot]

Thesp, I'll just say we disagree on this and drop it cause the argument isn't going anywhere. I think you would've been a great tracker target, but we may not even have one so I won't stress about it anymore.

Doing a Walnut/Charter reread because they're my two fav suspects after Thesp and also the leading wagons right now. We don't have deadlines, last time Mizzy only installed one because we took 4 weeks for D1, so I'm not going to hurry a vote based on that argument. Need sleep now, (work overnights) so the reread won't be finished for a while.