Mini 611 - Troy, Meet Helen (Game Over)

[Farkshinsoup]

Well, I'm waiting for Thesp, where I go next on this day is gonna depend on what I hear from him.

While we're waiting, if you could give me a quick summary of why you are so hot on lynching Walnut, that would be helpful (no sarcasm there, I'm serious).

[charter]

I'll just requote my posts from yesterday... Prepare yourself.

Did a reread, here's my thoughts on what I saw.

Batt in 37, put's a horribly justified vote on farside
Seeing an LG - Batt connection possibly
Riot in 48, Points out Batt
Walnut in 63, massive derailing of town
Had in 66, still cant shake this...
Walnut in 79, MORE extra curricular role speculation
by post 92, Walnut has said absolutely nothing new and constructive to the town and jumps on board Had
Riot in 99, wants the rest of the town's opinion on how to test Had's claim. He's testing the waters because you never lynch an unclaimed cop day 1 (or it's at least idiotic barring extreme circumstances). At this point I'm leaning towards Had actually being the cop.
Batt 102, says he was lurking on purpose...
Walnut 137, Defends himself against BB even though there is no need to. No one listened to him since he even said he had no interest in playing.
Walnut in 137, Seems to think lynching BB is not only acceptable, but a good idea. Says that BB was deliberately trying to draw votes when pressure was building. Two things wrong with this. First I think that was BB's first or second post, so it being timed seems very unlikely to me. Second, he 'knows' BB was drawing votes away from someone else...

At this point, I stop and just read all Walnut's posts+context.
145, wishy washy about BB after Netlava questions him.
Riot in 173, I don't understand why you seem to drop all suspicion of Walnut here and set your sights on Netlava. I don't find it scummy, but why did you drop Walnut?
LG in 176, bandwagons, screams scum to me.
Walnut in 187, defends me. Don't know why. Possible scenario is because he thinks I'll go and get myself lynched like I almost did last game, flip town, then he'll be in a good spot tomorrow.

Stopped around here. The whole game, up until here, Walnut only contributes useful opinions when questioned. His posts since then have been ok, but his early posts seem really scummy. Go ahead and string me up for this,

vote walnut

Charter I haven't dropped suspicion of Walnut. I pointed out that I still find him scummy in 252. I think Netlava is far scummier. You said in 250 that you've been too biased in favor of Netlava this game and are going to reread intending to be more neutral. Did that happen? You don't mention Netlava in your recap of the game anywhere.

Ah, I thought that since the whole post you questioned Netlava. I see now that you didn't drop him, my apologies. I haven't done that reread yet, I doubt I can today, hopefully this weekend. I didn't mention Netlava, but I didnt mention a lot of others either.

@Walnut, regardless of what questions you were answering, your post got a few people off topic for a while. I'm not arguing that what you said was or wasn't justified, just that you did say it, and it did derail the town.

You're right about the 137 though, don't know where I got defend from. More like fruitlessly attacks. I assumed no one listened to him, since there were very few posts that talked about BB or what he said. Also noted, how you group Tinsley in there with responding to BB but no one else. Walnut, you really didn't defend yourself against my accusations. You corrected my improper use of words in a few cases, but you didn't try and refute much.

Plus your latest post is taking a very noncommittal stance on netlava. You even say so yourself. It seems scummy, like all that needs to happen is netlava needs just a little more support, then you'll add your vote.

I know this is about netlava, but Walnut's post 92 contradicts his being hesitant to vote for someone that he's pulling now.
Read Riot's post 99. Had, if you investigate a good town power role tonight (aka doctor) please just say they're a normal townie.

Finally get to some Netlava stuff worthy of comment.
113, I actually think he picked out a non-connection between Batt and Riot. I however, don't understand the way Riot talks to Batt in those two. It's like they're both on the same team, but I can't see Riot doing something like that if he's scum.
144, Netlava says he's not sure whether Had is scum. A few posts earlier he said he thinks he is still, and throws out the idea of lynching him anyway.
150, I really don't like Batt's "What if" here. It seems like an opportunistic way to attack Netlava and make himself seem useful. (after this I'm going to look more closely at Batt, and particularly a Batt-Walnut connection). I commented on it before, but going back, Riot had already said it wasn't a breadcrumb, and Netlava had said before that that it's entirely pointless to breadcrumb as a doc. I agree with Netlava, the doctor is only good if they are completely hidden, so dropping ANY clue that you're the doc, is idiotic.
173, Riot sums up everything about Netlava. Honestly I think he's got it set in his mind Netlava is scum at this point and trying to get him lynched.
175, Netlava accuses LG. I think the putting LG at number two scum is very OMGUS, but I think his point is valid. I also agree with the rest of his post too. Plus, farside doesn't question LG like she did to me (in respect to the not answering questions. She didn't pioneer the ones on LG like she did with me though...)
176, Bad post by LG
193, Very odd that he didn't post this earlier, or at least didn't give a reason for not like "I'll respond to Riot's post when I get more free time" or something in his post 175. Not a stellar defense, but adequate.
195, I actually think Netlava has a case on LG. LG does change around the reasons he's voting Netlava from tunnel vision to flip flopping.
204, I think Mac's bit at the end of his post about netlava (about 'tempt') is true.
211, Walnut defends me, no reason for this. Think I already pointed this out though.
214, I agree with Netlava.
225, Bad post by Netlava, should have said it differently.
228, Farside agrees that Netlava did not OMGUS vote LG, I agree
276, Batt questions my remaining vote on walnut
277, LG FINALLY answers the SK speculation questions when no one even remembers them anymore
293, Netlava jumps on the walnut wagon.
312, Had flips on me AGAIN. Now I'm aggressive town, whereas before I was scum. I'm honestly about willing to lynch Had regardless of his claim... Also Had, there's nothing we can question you on your claim with until tomorrow.
325, Dont know what to make of his suggestions. I actually had him at number 3, but this post with its absurd amount of speculating puts him at 2.

Anyways, my top three scum picks
1 - Walnut
2 - Batt
3 - LG

Walnut I've explained.
Batt - A LARGE number of his posts serve no purpose but speculation.
LG - I think Netlava's case against him was justified, plus LG has been wagon hopping whenever it seems like someone new is coming under fire. His entire play this game has been extremely opportunistic.

Netlava - I don't think he's scum. I think Walnut is the best lynch for today.
Now to see if there's any Batt - LG - Walnut connections

I have no problem voting LG, Batt, or Walnut today to make sure one of them gets lynched at deadline.

That reminds me- why are you voting for me Charter? After you posted a list of accusations I answered them. My sense of that was that I had clearly explained myself and shown that your arguments did not hold water. To go back to your response to that (post #274)

Voting for you because you have yet to do any scumhunting. At first you posted a whole lot of nothing, and now that you've got some votes, all you're doing is defending yourself. Still no scumhunting.

@Walnut, regardless of what questions you were answering, your post got a few people off topic for a while. I'm not arguing that what you said was or wasn't justified, just that you did say it, and it did derail the town.

According to you, I answered questions, which may have been justified. What is the point here? Even if you believe the answers "derailed" the town and someone in this process was scummy, would it have been the person who asked the question, not the one who answered it?

I think both actions were scummy. I don't point out everything I find scummy.

You're right about the 137 though, don't know where I got defend from. More like fruitlessly attacks. I assumed no one listened to him, since there were very few posts that talked about BB or what he said. Also noted, how you group Tinsley in there with responding to BB but no one else.

I have explained my stance on BB previously. He needed to ask to be replaced or modify his style greatly, or he was scum. I am not sure how I am responsible for whether other people post about him or not- if I attack him and no one else does it is not deliberately fruitless and therefore scummy, as you seem to be saying here.

You've decided from two posts that BB is scum? Pretty bold statement there. Personally, I think his actions were brilliant (assuming he was town) because his claim would have easily drew mafia attention.

Why do I group Tinsley in there and no one else? Because Tinsley also responded at that time, and no one else did. Again, I am not getting your point in this accusation. Equally, if I had attacked someone that other people were pursuing, would you have called me scummy for getting on a bandwagon? I believe some people did for my vote on Hadhfang.

You give a one liner for voting Had, based on your gut and put him at L-2. It was your reason and your manner of jumping on Had's bandwagon that drew suspicion towards you.

Walnut, you really didn't defend yourself against my accusations. You corrected my improper use of words in a few cases, but you didn't try and refute much.

When the improper words were the key to your arguments, that seems significant. I thought I had pointed out conclusively that your accusations were baseless. Please tell me what I have missed.

The main reason for suspecting you, not scumhunting.

Plus your latest post is taking a very noncommittal stance on netlava. You even say so yourself. It seems scummy, like all that needs to happen is netlava needs just a little more support, then you'll add your vote.

Nope, needed a deadline My point was that if we focused only on Netlava he would be lynched, and we would miss the opportunity for more Day 1 converstion. Do you feel that you have benefited from the last few pages?

Greatly.

I know this is about netlava, but Walnut's post 92 contradicts his being hesitant to vote for someone that he's pulling now

I explained that, just a few posts earlier:

That post is actually what attracted charter and I's attention. We're saying it's a contradiction - there's really no way you could be as certain as you're now claiming you want to be that early in the game. The fact that you hadn't even posted anythign about him before jumping on him to L-2 is pretty much the opposite of someone being careful with their vote.

I think here you are confusing posting with analysing the game. Scumhunting is not just about asking your own questions and having them answered, it is also reading all of the conversations going on. Whether I had posted about Hadhfang or not before voting for him is irrelevant. I felt, and do feel, pretty confident about Had. Only time will prove whether my confidence was well founded or not.

You understand that no one else has any way of knowing what you think unless you post it. If that's the reason we're suspecting you, you might want to post more thoughts.

Other than in recent games I have a 100% success rate at being a mafia target on night one- my ghost will mouth it silently

Has nothing to do with this game.

It certainly does! It makes me very conscious that if I don't say something on Day 1 I may not have the chance to say it on Day 2.

Other games have nothing to do with this one.

[Tinsley]

I really think it was the mafia’s plan all along to make Netlava the target on D1 because of his play style. While all members of the scum team may not have voted Netlava, I feel confident that one or two did.

Voted Netlava - CFR, Walnut, LG, Batt, camn, Farkshinsoup, Netlava (Thesp did, but forgot to unvote, Macavenger was willing to)

CF Riot – Just on a quick skim, the tide on Netlava started to turn around page 7, and it looks to me like Riot started it. Riot was also linked to Batt. May have wanted to NK Batt to try to show he’s innocent.

LG – Still don’t like how he wanted someone to change their vote near the end of D1. Add that to the SK speculation, and the way he seemed very ready to jump on Netlava’s bandwagon just after CF Riot stated his case moves him up my list of suspicion.

camn – I believe someone speculated that Walnut could be the counter to her claimed role for scum. Could it be possible that her role is scum oriented? I’m hesitant to believe that though, because it seemed like BB was trying to draw scum attention with his soft claim. I still don’t like the fact that while she didn’t find Netlava the scummiest, she voted him anyways.

Walnut – I think everyone knows where I stand on him. Who do you suspect now that Netlava is gone?

Fark – Haven’t seen much scummy behavior from either him or farside. Right now I tend to trust him.

Those who ultimately did not vote Netlava – Thesp, Macavenger, ShadowGirl, charter, and myself:

Thesp – Voted Netlava, but did not unvote. Was that a mistake, or strategy? I’m interested to hear the result of his investigation. I’m also interested to hear who he suspects in Netlava’s place now.

Macavenger - The only thing that makes me wonder about him is the fact he’s still alive. I thought he would be the N1 target because he’s probably drawn the least suspicion. Not much of a case, but I’m starting to wonder about him. Now that Batt has turned up as townie, where do you stand on CF Riot? I also thought Netlava made a good point about the fact that he doesn’t seem as aggressive as he did in the trainwrecked game.

ShadowGirl – Still have a pro-town read on her for right now, but would like to see her participate more today. I’m interested to hear who she suspects now that the person at the top of her LoS turned up town.

charter – If there was one member of the scum team who didn’t vote Netlava, I think it’s him. While many of us were suspicious of Netlava, he continued to trust him without providing a good reason to. Maybe he knew Netlava was innocent, and sided with him to make himself look good when Netlava turned up townie. I’d also like to know why it’s a scum tell for Walnut to ask Thesp what he thinks, but it’s not when charter does the same. I agree with CF Riot’s argument on the NK speculation, how can it hurt? While Batt might not have been the likely lynch, he was suspected by myself, camn, ShadowGirl, charter, and Mac. While that may not have been enough for a lynch, it would have helped to draw suspicion away from scum.

Current LoS:

1) Walnut
2) charter
3) CF Riot

[ShadowGirl]

Not everyone who dies at night died because of what they say. Some scum kill those who aren't suspicious. But, I don't know if Batt was the best choice on either count...? Mm, I'm going to look through the last pages to see his last interactions.

[charter]

I really think it was the mafia’s plan all along to make Netlava the target on D1 because of his play style. While all members of the scum team may not have voted Netlava, I feel confident that one or two did.

Tinsley, if you aren't scum, you need to stop talking. How can a townie possibly know the mafia's plan? What makes you so confident that one or two did?

charter – If there was one member of the scum team who didn’t vote Netlava, I think it’s him. While many of us were suspicious of Netlava, he continued to trust him without providing a good reason to.

Whoa there. No where did I say I trusted Netlava. I said I thought the case against him was bad and that Walnut was the better lynch.

Maybe he knew Netlava was innocent, and sided with him to make himself look good when Netlava turned up townie.

I had my suspicions that Netlava was town. Another speculation on Tinsley's part.

I’d also like to know why it’s a scum tell for Walnut to ask Thesp what he thinks, but it’s not when charter does the same. I agree with CF Riot’s argument on the NK speculation, how can it hurt? While Batt might not have been the likely lynch, he was suspected by myself, camn, ShadowGirl, charter, and Mac. While that may not have been enough for a lynch, it would have helped to draw suspicion away from scum.

Ok, first off, my reasons for voting Walnut are the same as yesterday. I don't ask Thesp what he thinks. I ask him who he investigated and why, and why we shouldn't lynch him. I'm not terribly interested in his opinions. Walnut's question of "What do you have to say for yourself at this moment?" I interpreted as "You were wrong about Netlava being scum and you're my number one scum suspect, what do you have to say for yourself at this moment?" Going back, I can see how what I said created confusion.

Most of Tinsley's most recent post is placing suspicion on others. I'll probably do a reread.

[Farkshinsoup]

I agree with CF Riot’s argument on the NK speculation, how can it hurt? While Batt might not have been the likely lynch, he was suspected by myself, camn, ShadowGirl, charter, and Mac. While that may not have been enough for a lynch, it would have helped to draw suspicion away from scum.

How can it help? It's all WIFOM. He could have been killed by one of you, or by someone else to put suspicion on you.

I think it's more worthwhile to forget about the NK and concentrate on things that we do know.

[camn]

Hrmph. Looks like I'm outed. Yuck.

OK.. Just for clairity....

Are you confirming your predecessor's claim?

I read it as yes, you are.

If so.. could you re-state your role? And please enlighten us as to your night activities?

thank you
c

[Macavenger]

If we have a vig, F- for not shooting Walnut last night.

Vote: Walnut

I do not envision this vote moving today unless Thesp has a guilty on someone.


While Walnut is pretty clearly the lynch today, I'd also like to point out that ShadowGirl's behavior is striking me as suspicious at this point. She lurked through a lot of day 1, maybe because she was busy, or maybe not. Either way, her larger posts struck me as mostly summarizing events in the game, not so much as scumhunting. I also don't like how she avoided commenting extensively on either of the large wagons, and left her vote uselessly on Battousai, where it wouldn't tie her to anything later.

[ShadowGirl]

If we have a vig, F- for not shooting Walnut last night.

Vote: Walnut

I do not envision this vote moving today unless Thesp has a guilty on someone.


While Walnut is pretty clearly the lynch today, I'd also like to point out that ShadowGirl's behavior is striking me as suspicious at this point. She lurked through a lot of day 1, maybe because she was busy, or maybe not. Either way, her larger posts struck me as mostly summarizing events in the game, not so much as scumhunting. I also don't like how she avoided commenting extensively on either of the large wagons, and left her vote uselessly on Battousai, where it wouldn't tie her to anything later.

I was busy. :/

I've acknowledged that I haven't been of much help in the past day, but I intend to do more now that I do have time and I don't have quite such a load of games.

And I have commented on the two wagons. 418, I think it was?

[CF Riot]

For speculation, I know we could come up with a scum-motive that's wrong. But that also means we could come up with one that's RIGHT. I'm not saying we should try to start a

lynch

based on motives, but I think we should take a look at them because they could give us a step in the right direction.
----
Tinsley, I'm think I know what you mean but your wording on one thing confused me. Just to be clear:

"Could it be possible that [Camn's] role is scum oriented?"

Are you just saying, "Is it possible she is scum?" or do you mean something else?

And yes, I was the first person to vote Netlava. My big case on him was the first major thing pointing suspicion at him. I

think

there may have been a few earlier posts by other people pointing out minor things about him, but the wagon more or less started with me. In my defense, my case, and Netlava's scummy behavior, was real. I didn't fabricate any of the things I saw wrong about him and I was pretty dismayed when he flipped town.
----
Charter is starting to do the same things he did last game as scum. He's moving up my list case-wise from his new posts.

Ok, first off, my reasons for voting Walnut are the same as yesterday. . .

I don't ask Thesp what he thinks . . . I'm not terribly interested in his opinions.

I wasn't talking about your vote. I know you suspect him from yesterday, I still do too. I'm talking about this.

Thesp, you are both a

claimed cop

and my number one scum suspect on Day 1. What do you have to say for yourself at this moment?

[About Thesp]

Why shouldn't we lynch you?

[About Walnut]

Another tell is asking Thesp what he thinks now.

What you did is the

exact

same thing. That bold part in your post, that's asking his opinion. And you're saying you read Walnut's post as talking about the Netlava wagon, but he doesn't mention Netlava at all and it says

right in his post

he's questioning Thesp as the

claimed cop

.

I also think it's interesting how Tinsley comes up with some info to start cases on, then you (A) tell him to stop talking altogether and (B) point out he's laying down his suspicions as if it's a bad thing. This on top of asking no one to give opinions on who would kill Batt. You're trying to shut down conversation. This seems remarkably like how you tried to block the flow of information in game 1 when I asked your opinions on BB. (Reminder for replacements, Charter was scum game 1.)

[CF Riot]

Oh damn, I forgot I was going to add my LoS.

1) Walnut
2) Charter

*) Thesp (awaiting claim)

[charter]

For speculation, I know we could come up with a scum-motive that's wrong. But that also means we could come up with one that's RIGHT. I'm not saying we should try to start a

lynch

based on motives, but I think we should take a look at them because they could give us a step in the right direction.

So what if out of ten theories, one happens to be the actual correct one? You still have to pick it out. Can a townie do that? Not without knowing for certain who one of the scum is.

[quote="Riot"I also think it's interesting how Tinsley comes up with some info to start cases on, then you (A) tell him to stop talking altogether and (B) point out he's laying down his suspicions as if it's a bad thing.[/quote]
Where I tell Tinsley to stop talking, is where he claims to know "the mafia's plan all along". Can you explain to me how he could know it? The info to start cases you speak of is his SPECULATION.

This on top of asking no one to give opinions on who would kill Batt. You're trying to shut down conversation. This seems remarkably like how you tried to block the flow of information in game 1 when I asked your opinions on BB. (Reminder for replacements, Charter was scum game 1.)

If you want to SPECULATE on why Batt was killed, go for it. Pretend I never said don't speculate. We'll see where it goes...

Here, I'll start you all off
Batt was killed because -
-Mafia picked a person at random
-Mafia thought Batt was the doc
-Mafia wanted to frame XXXX
-Mafia thought Batt was a threat
-Batt had the mafia pegged

Now it's like a carnival game, might as well just throw a dart and go off where it lands.
Nice how you single me out in not wanting to speculate on the NK...

[camn]

I Like speculation! Isn't that what this game is all about?

so....
/speculation ON

a) the mafia thought he was a power role.

Now.. all you Master's of each other's Meta.......
who would look at Batt's play, and knowing he was town, would interpret it as him being a power role? A lot of townies read power-roles as scummy..... so maybe the mafia just went with OUR suspicion's as their guides.
But whoever it was, I doubt that they would have called out Batt in-thread.
Which tends to give Shadowgirl some slack, as well as Batts other accusers?

OR
b) a weak attempt to frame Shadowgirl. She is a lurker.. thus an easy lynch? The obviousness of this play ALSO inclines me toward her innocence.


Could be WIFOM'ed.. but I am inclined to cut her some slack FOR NOW. I won't string her up just for lurking.

/speculation OFF

In the real world....

I do want Thesp to join our discussion.

[Thesp]

Thesp, who did you investigate? Why? Why shouldn't we lynch you?

I investigated Battousai, because I didn't have much of a read on him, and thought there was very little info on him (and suspected he wouldn't be nightkilled). Awesome choice that turned out to be. I got no result whatsoever (which could be the work of a roleblocker, or the fact that I investigated a dead person).

Tinsley, speculating as to why Batt was NK'ed is the absolute dumbest thing we can do.

I actually disagree with this, to some extent. I think nightkills can provide useful information, but less so when they're discussed, if that makes any sense. I think personal, non-discussed reflection on why someone was killed can be valuable (and is tainted once presented as such). I do like the Tinsley hate here.

Had was horribly scummy, and Thesp isn't as clever as he thinks he is.

Hrmph. Looks like I'm outed. Yuck.

OK.. Just for clairity....

Are you confirming your predecessor's claim?

I read it as yes, you are.

This is correct. I am a cop whose suggestion of distrustfulness in the flavor implies to me that I may be paranoid. (This may be why my predecessor claimed to have an unknown sanity, which is otherwise redundant.)

If we have a vig, F- for not shooting Walnut last night.

I like you.

And yes, I was the first person to vote Netlava. My big case on him was the first major thing pointing suspicion at him. I think there may have been a few earlier posts by other people pointing out minor things about him, but the wagon more or less started with me. In my defense, my case, and Netlava's scummy behavior, was real. I didn't fabricate any of the things I saw wrong about him and I was pretty dismayed when he flipped town.

Guilty conscience much?

Vote: farkinshoup.

I'm a little bit more open to answering questions today. =P

[charter]

Can you provide evidence that fark is scum? You know, more than your assertion from yesterday...

[Thesp]

How much probative scumhunting did farside22 do? How many posts did she have that looked like they were useful, but went nowhere? How often did she go on tangents away from the centerpoint of discussion?

[charter]

That's not evidence that fark is scum...

[Macavenger]

That's not evidence that fark is scum...

How is it not? fark replaced farside; they have the same role. It's a pretty similar case to the Walnut case overall... I'm heavily of the opinion that Walnut should go first, personally, but Thesp has a decent point here.

[Thesp]

That's not evidence that fark is scum...

Did farkinshoup get a different role than farside22?

[charter]

I mean all you did was ask rhetorical questions, not cite examples of scummy behavior. You'll have to excuse me if I don't blindly follow your assertions.

[Thesp]

I mean all you did was ask rhetorical questions, not cite examples of scummy behavior. You'll have to excuse me if I don't blindly follow your assertions.

Who said they were rhetorical? I'm mildly curious as to your answers to those questions.

[charter]

So then your case against fark is me answering questions?

[Lord Gurgi]

So then your case against fark is me answering questions?

*cough* Dodging the question *cough*

In unrelated news, I still think charter is scum, he's doing a wonderful job of self contradiction and incriminating himself by answering questions targeted at other players, and not in a very pro-town manner either.

[CF Riot]

Ok, am I the only one who thinks our cop's claim is fishy as hell? Thesp, you made it through the night when you were claimed cop. Now I can see multiple explanations for this, as since it would make you a good target for scum, it would for the same reason make you a good target for Doc. But also the target you investigated just happen to be NK'd. Convenient because he can't verify or reject this result, AND a wonderful excuse if a tracker shows up asking why you went to Batt's last night. And now you're saying your unknown sanity is now probably paranoid. So basically now if you give a real result, we're supposed to say, "This is wrong but he's paranoid so that must be why!"

This must be THE most convenient claim for a scum-as-cop ever.
----
Thesp's claim looks really bad to me, but that aside Charter is still making waves.

Where I tell Tinsley to stop talking, is where he claims to know "the mafia's plan all along". Can you explain to me how he could know it?

If you have a problem with this you should want him to keep talking and make him a suspect, and maybe get some info to build a case on. I don't think it is illogical to think scum would try to lynch Netlava. I think Tinsley is just thinking too much for your liking, and you don't want him to be heard. The post about Thesp's case is wrong too. I now think Thesp is lying, but his case is not baseless.
----
El-oh-Ess:

1) Thesp
2) Wally
3) Charter

[Thesp]

So then your case against fark is me answering questions?

Please do answer the questions, then get back to me.