Mini 637: Xyl's Smalltown Plus - Game Over

[Alabaska J]

Poisoner, do you have a secret ability?

[icemanE]

You fail to realize that the scum's main weapon to win is night kills while ours is the lynch. How is maximizing ours while minimizing theirs a bad thing?

Also - the scum's main weapon is misleading the town into making poor decisions.

And we will be minimizing our chances for success and killing townies needlessly if we just bomb the hell out of the whole thing.

[Alabaska J]

Also - the scum's main weapon is misleading the town into making poor decisions.

This is equivalent to saying the town's best weapon is scumhunting.

At first glance, these things look fine, but they aren't weapons, so stop trying to make everything armlx says look wonky.

[hasdgfas]

You fail to realize that the scum's main weapon to win is night kills while ours is the lynch. How is maximizing ours while minimizing theirs a bad thing?

Also - the scum's main weapon is misleading the town into making poor decisions.

And we will be minimizing our chances for success and killing townies needlessly if we just bomb the hell out of the whole thing.

but you don't know that we're killing townies, ice, that's the thing. We're killing the most suspicious people. I'd rather have them dead early than be confusing us later when it's more stressful.

[icemanE]

This is equivalent to saying the town's best weapon is scumhunting.

...and it is... what are you saying with this? And why are you answering for arm. Please, I sincerely hate it.

but you don't know that we're killing townies, ice, that's the thing. We're killing the most suspicious people. I'd rather have them dead early than be confusing us later when it's more stressful.

I see exactly what you're saying and understand where you're coming from. I agree that the most suspicious people should be killed - that's the whole idea behind the game and the only truly effective way to play it. But I don't think that killing as many of the suspicious people as possible while sacrificing potentially useful roles/players is necessary - i think there's a tipping point, which in this case, is using the poisoner and the lynch, and that the SB on day one goes beyond that point.

[cerebus3]

Alabaska really needs to die. I don't care how.

Ice man should to be bombed. (In case nobody is paying attention he just contradicted himself)

empking might just not be thinking too far into what he is saying.

[icemanE]

Ice man should to be bombed. (In case nobody is paying attention he just contradicted himself)

Mind explaining how?

[armlx]

Poisoner, do you have a secret ability?

Why is this relevant?

Also - the scum's main weapon is misleading the town into making poor decisions.

No. If you take away in game talking (aka random the game) it doesn't change odds that much (10-2 goes from unfavorable to very poor), but taking away night kills does (8-4 goes from absolutely unwinnable to 50/50). Also, what you are saying that if you are scum you want to try to disable the town's way to win, which is p obvious and goes along with my statement.

We're killing the most suspicious people. I'd rather have them dead early than be confusing us later when it's more stressful.

This is a good post.

Alabaska really needs to die. I don't care how.

Why?

icemanE, explain this to me: Why is SBing someone worse then going to night? Worst case scenario is SB is 1 for 1ing someone not scummy for someone scummy, same as lynch + night, only usually when that happens the not scummy person is 100% assured not scum as the mafia aren't going to kill their own members, while the SB is in no way confirmed. Now, the SB is even scummy. Talk about a bonus.

[icemanE]

icemanE, explain this to me: Why is SBing someone worse then going to night? Worst case scenario is SB is 1 for 1ing someone not scummy for someone scummy, same as lynch + night, only usually when that happens the not scummy person is 100% assured not scum as the mafia aren't going to kill their own members, while the SB is in no way confirmed. Now, the SB is even scummy. Talk about a bonus.

The way I see it is this:

If the SB is not scum, and we choose a target for him to kill, he will presumably follow what we say and kill that target - which means we kill a possible scum and lose a townie.

If the SB IS scum, and we choose a target for him to kill, he will presumably ignore his advice and kill a townie of his choosing - which means we kill a scum but lose a townie.

Now, we can't be sure that the SB is scum until he blows himself up - so really, it's either a potential townie killing a potential scum, or a potential scum killing a definite townie. It just doesn't seem worth it to me.

[icemanE]

EBWOP: Presumably ignore *OUR* advice

[armlx]

If the SB is not scum, and we choose a target for him to kill, he will presumably follow what we say and kill that target - which means we kill a possible scum and lose a townie.

So the same as a generic lynch, only the town role that is lost to the "NK" isn't a info/protective role.

If the SB IS scum, and we choose a target for him to kill, he will presumably ignore his advice and kill a townie of his choosing - which means we kill a scum but lose a townie.

So the same as a correct lynch.

I don't see whats wrong with that.

[icemanE]

I don't see whats wrong with that.

What I see is wrong with it is that it doubles our chances to be wrong without doubling our chances to be right. The SB isn't going to kill another scum. So the most we can kill with the SB is one scum - why would we want to risk losing two townies for the chance of killing at maximum one scum?

[hasdgfas]

I don't see whats wrong with that.

What I see is wrong with it is that it doubles our chances to be wrong without doubling our chances to be right. The SB isn't going to kill another scum. So the most we can kill with the SB is one scum - why would we want to risk losing two townies for the chance of killing at maximum one scum?

Why wouldn't we want to do that AND STILL HAVE A LYNCH THAT CAN GET US ANOTHER SCUM BEFORE THEY GET A KILL

[ZombieSlayer54]

Oh, yeah, the latest reason I don't like icemanE is him trying to defend himself with role info.

As for how many kills today, I vote for as many as possible. More pro-town kills is like pushing the game towards nightless.

Once again, presuming all kills will be pro-town.

[ZombieSlayer54]

My answer is just the lynch and poisoner. My reason for not wanting to SB today is that I flat out don't trust iceman to do anything with his SB other than kill the most useful townie role (watcher/tracker in my opinion). You guys keep saying that we should SB then let him SB someone else. How do you know he's going to go through with it?!?!?!?

I've already told you SEVERAL times that if given the oppurtunity to assume the SB role, I would decline it.

Oh, yeah, the latest reason I don't like icemanE is him trying to defend himself with role info.

How and why is this a bad thing? You either have some personal problem with me or you're scum again this game. I also don't understand how armlx is allowed to cruise by making two line posts without growing any moss, especially when he advocates high body counts based on pretty loose info. I mean look at this for Christ's sake:

As for how many kills today, I vote for as many as possible. More pro-town kills is like pushing the game towards nightless.

WTF? The more kills that occur today, the more townies will die, period. Chances are obviously immensely better based on odds alone that more townies will die than scum - your suggestion is basically to carpetbomb the shit out of this game until we happen to kill scum, and in the process kill a bunch of townies.

@Armlx - do you really think Crazy is scum or do you just want the SB to use his ability?

This post makes me think that either armlx is scum, or iceman is scum. I heavily doubt both can be scum at this point. Leaning towards armlx, though.

[hasdgfas]

Oh, yeah, the latest reason I don't like icemanE is him trying to defend himself with role info.

As for how many kills today, I vote for as many as possible. More pro-town kills is like pushing the game towards nightless.

Once again, presuming all kills will be pro-town.

Why did this have to be thrown in?

[hasdgfas]

My answer is just the lynch and poisoner. My reason for not wanting to SB today is that I flat out don't trust iceman to do anything with his SB other than kill the most useful townie role (watcher/tracker in my opinion). You guys keep saying that we should SB then let him SB someone else. How do you know he's going to go through with it?!?!?!?

I've already told you SEVERAL times that if given the oppurtunity to assume the SB role, I would decline it.

Oh, yeah, the latest reason I don't like icemanE is him trying to defend himself with role info.

How and why is this a bad thing? You either have some personal problem with me or you're scum again this game. I also don't understand how armlx is allowed to cruise by making two line posts without growing any moss, especially when he advocates high body counts based on pretty loose info. I mean look at this for Christ's sake:

As for how many kills today, I vote for as many as possible. More pro-town kills is like pushing the game towards nightless.

WTF? The more kills that occur today, the more townies will die, period. Chances are obviously immensely better based on odds alone that more townies will die than scum - your suggestion is basically to carpetbomb the shit out of this game until we happen to kill scum, and in the process kill a bunch of townies.

@Armlx - do you really think Crazy is scum or do you just want the SB to use his ability?

This post makes me think that either armlx is scum, or iceman is scum. I heavily doubt both can be scum at this point. Leaning towards armlx, though.

FoS: ZS

Please explain why you think armlx is scum over ice

[armlx]

ZS, the kills will all be town directed like lynches or the person in question will be lynched. They will be just as pro-town as a lynch.

[armlx]

How and why is this a bad thing?

Referring to defending self with his role, the issue is roles and alignment in this game are in no way shape or form connected.

This post makes me think that either armlx is scum, or iceman is scum. I heavily doubt both can be scum at this point. Leaning towards armlx, though.

What makes you sure of this dichotomy as opposed to both town or both scum?

[ZombieSlayer54]

@Armlx - do you really think Crazy is scum or do you just want the SB to use his ability?

Both, I think Crazy is probably scum because he does not want to use his ability.

And Alabaska, lynching me for proposing the plan amounts to "Too Townie".

WTF? The more kills that occur today, the more townies will die, period. Chances are obviously immensely better based on odds alone that more townies will die than scum - your suggestion is basically to carpetbomb the shit out of this game until we happen to kill scum, and in the process kill a bunch of townies.

That is true. Hell, the more we lynch, the more townies will die, so lets not do that either.

If we kill 3 players today, we are less likely to hit scum in those 3 then we would be in lynches over 3 days as are no scum kills in between to thin the crowd. By that logic, we should just non-stop no lynch until LyLo as it thins the crowd even more. By arguing that it is better to not utilize as many pro-town kills as is possible, you should agree with the statement that doctors shouldn't protect randomly as it hurts the town's info flow. Do you think either of those is true?

You fail to realize that the scum's main weapon to win is night kills while ours is the lynch. How is maximizing ours while minimizing theirs a bad thing?

There is a reason vanilla 10-2 set ups with nights have never been won by town while vanilla 8-4s as nightless are fair.

The more we lynch without good information, the more townies we kill. The same applies to daykills.

Once again, presuming all of our daykills are protown.

[ZombieSlayer54]

By that logic, we should just non-stop no lynch until LyLo as it thins the crowd even more. By arguing that it is better to not utilize as many pro-town kills as is possible, you should agree with the statement that doctors shouldn't protect randomly as it hurts the town's info flow.

Wow. No. This is ridiculous, and very typical of what I saw in the Eclipse game - trying to tie my ideas in with other trash you generate to make what I'm saying seem stupid by association.

OBVIOUSLY PRO-TOWN KILLS ARE BENEFICIAL TO THE TOWN. What I'm saying is that CHANCES ARE VERY GOOD THAT MOST OF THE KILLS WE MAKE TODAY ARE NOT GOING TO BE PROTOWN IF WE JUST GUN DOWN AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE ON DAY ONE. Say we follow the high body count plan - and we screw it up, which is just as likely as killing even ONE of the scum - in fact, it's more likely we'll screw it up that not based on odds - that leaves us quite near lylo on day 2. What then? I already know you'll be making one mistake for sure if you go ahead with Alabaska and armlx's plan, so I can't possibly envision this being a good idea. I think utilizing the poisoner as well as the lynch is a BONUS KILL, but using the SB to kill two MORE people is OVERKILL.

:goodposting:

[ZombieSlayer54]

By that logic, we should just non-stop no lynch until LyLo as it thins the crowd even more. By arguing that it is better to not utilize as many pro-town kills as is possible, you should agree with the statement that doctors shouldn't protect randomly as it hurts the town's info flow.

Wow. No. This is ridiculous, and very typical of what I saw in the Eclipse game - trying to tie my ideas in with other trash you generate to make what I'm saying seem stupid by association.

OBVIOUSLY PRO-TOWN KILLS ARE BENEFICIAL TO THE TOWN. What I'm saying is that CHANCES ARE VERY GOOD THAT MOST OF THE KILLS WE MAKE TODAY ARE NOT GOING TO BE PROTOWN IF WE JUST GUN DOWN AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE ON DAY ONE. Say we follow the high body count plan - and we screw it up, which is just as likely as killing even ONE of the scum - in fact, it's more likely we'll screw it up that not based on odds - that leaves us quite near lylo on day 2. What then? I already know you'll be making one mistake for sure if you go ahead with Alabaska and armlx's plan, so I can't possibly envision this being a good idea. I think utilizing the poisoner as well as the lynch is a BONUS KILL, but using the SB to kill two MORE people is OVERKILL.

how is it overkill to kill off the people we find most suspicious before the mafia gets a chance to NK some of us?

Because it is hard to be sure of someone's scuminess on Day 1.

We need more information before using stuff like suicide bombers.

Poisoners I am semi-fine with using right now.

SBs? Hell no.

[Xylthixlm]

Vote Count

IcemanE - 4 (cerebus3, charter, Crazy, ZombieSlayer54)
armlx - 1 (nhat)
wolframnhart - 1 (Empking)
cerebus3 - 1 (Alabaska J)
Crazy - 1 (icemanE)
empking - 1 (hasdgfas)

Not voting: armlx, pwnz, wolframnhart

With 12 alive, it will take 7 to lynch. The deadline for day 1 is Saturday, August 15 at 7:00 PM Pacific.

[hasdgfas]

By that logic, we should just non-stop no lynch until LyLo as it thins the crowd even more. By arguing that it is better to not utilize as many pro-town kills as is possible, you should agree with the statement that doctors shouldn't protect randomly as it hurts the town's info flow.

Wow. No. This is ridiculous, and very typical of what I saw in the Eclipse game - trying to tie my ideas in with other trash you generate to make what I'm saying seem stupid by association.

OBVIOUSLY PRO-TOWN KILLS ARE BENEFICIAL TO THE TOWN. What I'm saying is that CHANCES ARE VERY GOOD THAT MOST OF THE KILLS WE MAKE TODAY ARE NOT GOING TO BE PROTOWN IF WE JUST GUN DOWN AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE ON DAY ONE. Say we follow the high body count plan - and we screw it up, which is just as likely as killing even ONE of the scum - in fact, it's more likely we'll screw it up that not based on odds - that leaves us quite near lylo on day 2. What then? I already know you'll be making one mistake for sure if you go ahead with Alabaska and armlx's plan, so I can't possibly envision this being a good idea. I think utilizing the poisoner as well as the lynch is a BONUS KILL, but using the SB to kill two MORE people is OVERKILL.

how is it overkill to kill off the people we find most suspicious before the mafia gets a chance to NK some of us?

Because it is hard to be sure of someone's scuminess on Day 1.

We need more information before using stuff like suicide bombers.

Poisoners I am semi-fine with using right now.

SBs? Hell no.

Right, but if we get rid of the scummy people Day 1, we'll have better chances later if we happened to screw up today.

[armlx]

ZS, you act like we don't have good info right now. There are at least 2 players right now I would be willing to lynch.