Open 81 - The New C9 - Game Over

[Lowell]

Wait, is someone seriously suggesting the masons aren't confirmed???

God that's insane.

[strife220]

Wait, is someone seriously suggesting the masons aren't confirmed???

God that's insane.

Yes and Yes

[forbiddanlight]

This looks like a logical fallacy but I have no clue what the name is. Not quite a strawman - it's just an impossible to answer question. He said Korts was a good lynch, and you want him to essentially 'prove' that he's a better lynch than Tin and Blak Adder? If you think Tin or Blak Adder is a better lynch, it's your job to provide a superior case.

I admit I phrased it badly. It ended up being a somewhat leading question. REally, what I meant to see was what the case on Korts actually was. It's been answered. However, I did press the question about why the case was better than any others, and you are right, the burden of proof should be on me. I suspect that there is potentially a Tin Vision Blak Adder pair given the fact that Tin Vision was trying to clear BlakAdder after asking him a few questions that Blak answered unsatisfactorily to everyone except Tin himself. Blak has been scummy in his own right with the way he's been playing with mostly one liners and no real analysis. I think bandwagoning is in there somewhere as well. I think the Tin/Blak case is superior to the Korts case because of all that.


Also, don't like Meurrto for the reasons stated. Even if the claimed masons are somewhat useless in helping town (and I'm still out on roflcopter. He's arrogant, but from what I hear, he's always right eventually), there is no need to kill off townies with the town NK when the scum will eventually take care of it given their win condition (i.e, SK)

[Greasy Spot]

Um..Greasy, how does outing the Masons provide cover for the other roles? With the masons(glorified townies that can talk at night, by your own words) outed, the scum have that much higher chance of hitting a power role. Why would the scum kill the masons?

Yes the scum have a higher chance of hitting PRs but also the Town has a better chance of hitting scum because they won't be focused on the "claimed Masons", so it goes both ways.


I like the idea of taking out the masons first so we don't potentially lynch a Doc or Cop, or worse yet them claim on Day 1 for fear of being lynched.

@muerrto: How can you read any of the exchanges between me and iamausername and say my vote wasn't warranted based on his behavior.

[Sun Tzu]

Most of what Muerrto posted is pretty good and pretty close to my own thoughts on a lot of things.

However, the idea of lynching a mason to test them is retarded. The odds of mafia claiming masons as a gambit is incredibly low for the simple reason that it's such a stupid thing to do.

Additionally, the argument that we should lynch them now so we don't have to waste a lynch on them later doesn't make any sense.

If

they are both still alive toward endgame,

then

we can consider lynching one. We don't gain anything by doing that now.

This is so bad that I might vote Muerrto despite everything else he said.

[armlx]

Rather leave Muerrto around for now. While I do find the mason comment out of character for him, I don't think its enough for a lynch on its own.

[Korts]

Finally, someone who actually believes my innocence. Too bad he's scum.

Trying to get a mason mislynch/misvig, not pro-town.

armix, you never answered my question. You neither, Korts. I'm not seein your respective cases.

Sorry about that. To be honest, it's not much of a case right now, the main point against him is gut feeling.

armix, you never answered my question. You neither, Korts. I'm not seein your respective cases.

Sorry, here is why: Korts has been all over the place vote wise, and kept digging at the vig issue.

Meta me. I'm a fan of bandwagons. The vig issue I can't defend with anything else other than I stopped when I realized it hurts the town.

I have a faint nagging feeling that there was something else I wanted to answer, but I can't find it. Ah well.

Still, armlx is the play today.

[armlx]

the main point against him is gut feeling.

Epic fail. Gut feeling is the weapon of people who have no desire to analyze, whether out of sloth or being scum.

[StrangerCoug]

I'll post more when I come back from the library, but I am not vigging either of the masons. That's not my job.

[Korts]

the main point against him is gut feeling.

Epic fail. Gut feeling is the weapon of people who have no desire to analyze, whether out of sloth or being scum.

I analyzed you. I didn't get proof. I'm still convinced you're scum. What to do but vote you?

[armlx]

I analyzed you. I didn't get proof.

That is why you fail.

[BlakAdder]

To be honest, it's not much of a case right now, the main point against him is gut feeling.

Isn't going by my gut the reason people originally tried to start a wagon against me?

[BlakAdder]

EBWOP: You, included?

[forbiddanlight]

Ugh...I don't like this Korts. Not at all. It's all well and good to vote your gut, but to expect others to vote with you because of it? Not gonna work. Case or die. I'm fine with my vote on Tin, but BlakAdder and Korts seem to be good plays as well. Also Muerto, but not as much.

[iamausername]

However, the idea of lynching a mason to test them is retarded.

Muerrto wasn't suggesting that we

lynch

the masons, but that we get our vig to kill them. Not that that's a whole lot better.
However, I don't think his suggestion is scummy for the same reasons I didn't think Lowell wanting masons to claim immediately was scummy. Dumb, not scum.

Why? Masons are simply townies who can PM. If I was mafia OR an SK there's no way I'd waste my kill on a mason instead of hunting a power role.

Masons are townies who can PM,

and will never be lynched after claiming

. That's far more significant than being able to PM.

Also, SK is inv-immune, so he has no need to hunt cops. One doc is already dead. Vig has claimed. So, at the most, he's got one doctor to worry about hunting. I'm pretty sure he'll be taking out a claimed mason soon enough.

The whole town is taking Rofl's word for gospel.

I'm honestly not seeing a lot of this, most people have been either ignoring or disagreeing with his "WE ARE LYNCHING THESE PEOPLE" posts.

IAUN: I have no scum read on you whatsoever but Kort never rolefished. He confirmed what Armlx had already said(wrong but till). Pretend Armlx HAD been against a night 0 kill. Then HE'S the own who accidently claimed non-vig. Kort reapeating it was stupid, not rolefishing, and not scummy(as stated above about him being able to PM and all).

Yes, if armlx had said what Korts thought he said, it would have been dumb. Korts still would have been rolefishing, because the way armlx (and possibly others) reacted to Korts pointing out armlx's apparent mistake could give more clues about the identity of the vig. I mean, I can see townKorts saying it without thinking, but it

was

rolefishing.

---

After a reread,

Unvote, Vote: BlakAdder

. He's been mostly lurking, popping in from time to time to make a poorly or not at all reasoned vote on a popular wagon (roflcopter here, StrangerCoug here), or a post that has no actual game relevance (asking for a votecount, telling everyone else to post more, etc.).

Also, re forbiddenlight's wall o' text post:

EBWOP: Finally breached the massive wall of text. Great job there, Forbiddan. This just made scumhunting loads easier.
In regards to the content itself, you did a good job of keeping neutral, not painting anyone in a good or negative light.
I'll have finished going over my own notes in a minute, and I'll have a more game-related post.

Pretty much freely admitting that he's just going to go along with someone else's reasoning, plus some total buddying up to fl. Also, this "more game-related post" doesn't appear to have ever materialised.

Also think this:

Crap, what is that, four claims on Day one, now?

is a scumtell in much the same way as the classic 'congratulating the doc'/'moaning about how bad the previous night was' tells are.

His desparation to distance himself from TinVision here is likely significant too.

[Korts]

"Case or die", forbiddan? This is BS. You say it's okay to vote based on gut feeling, yet you declare that I shouldn't ask anyone else to vote armlx based on my gut feeling? What point would there be in voting at all if I would be content to be the only one voting armlx?

@BlakAdder. You were bandwagoned because you didn't even try to back up your suspicions. I made the effort of researching. I evaluated the results and my gut feeling, and I stuck with my vote in the end. See the distinction?

[StrangerCoug]

I don't like Lowell's posts, which is why I confirm voted him, but I don't like this post of yours either. You're spoiling an otherwise good attack on Lowell by encouraging bandwagoning and going for the easiest lynch possible.

Major HoS: strife220

Confused... why is encouraging bandwagoning bad? And how is Lowell the easiest lynch possible? He was one of 8 people that had votes on them at the time. Why not a HOS to Korts for saying:

Actually, if some people would be willing to vote armlx, that'd be all kinds of great.

since it's also explicitly encouraging bandwagoning?

Fine.

HoS: Korts.

You happy?

My rationale... is that you don't joke about bombs at an airport unless you want to be thrown in prison,

You just finished xyyzy's game with GS in it. Go re-read his... 2? posts in that game. GS clearly has no problem with joking about bombs. Armix is right with his meta.

Greasy Spot did not play in that game.

Lynch Blak, Vig Iron. Directing the vig is NOT scummy. Vamp was a GOD AWFUL player. Testing the masons is 100% necessary before LYLO.

Heck no. The vigilante shouldn't be testing the masons.

FoS: Muerrto

Here's a reason why using the vig to test the masons is a bad idea; it's unnecessary, because the SK will almost certainly be doing that for us before LYLO.

Thank you. Great minds think alike.

Ugh...I don't like this Korts. Not at all. It's all well and good to vote your gut, but to expect others to vote with you because of it? Not gonna work. Case or die.

Don't you think this is a bit harsh?

[BlakAdder]

@FL: We get it. You're voting Tin, but you think Korts and I are scummy. You can quit including that in every post you make now.
@IAUN: Just because I'm not broadcasting my thoughts to everyone (including the scum) doesn't mean I'm scum. Also, you're reading way too much into what I say. Trying to turn "That's four claims on day one, right?" into a scum tell just screams desperation.
@Korts: I see.

[forbiddanlight]

@FL: We get it. You're voting Tin, but you think Korts and I are scummy. You can quit including that in every post you make now.

Actually, adding Korts was new. And also, I provided an explanation in the last post of why I think you and Tin are scummy.

"Case or die", forbiddan? This is BS. You say it's okay to vote based on gut feeling, yet you declare that I shouldn't ask anyone else to vote armlx based on my gut feeling? What point would there be in voting at all if I would be content to be the only one voting armlx?

Fallacy. I shouldn't have said case or die I guess, though that may be your case if you only have your gut for cases. And I'm saying you should ask them two...AFTER you've figured out why your gut dislikes armix. A gut feeling isn't a case. Pointing to what might have gotten you uneasy is. Even if it's a meta argument, it's better than "I'm voting my gut". You should know that.

Don't you think this is a bit harsh?

Not at all. I think it's a healthy attitude so that we don't get complacent.

[Muerrto]

No. The train is being engineered by GS, despite whatever you said about IAUN. GS's reasoning was 'he's too stupid to be a townie' which I SPECIFICALLY mentioned in my post. Has nothing to do with you.

You quoted a post where IAUN was responding directly to me about a post that I made. How does that have anything to do with GS and nothing to do with me?

Um because you weren't running the train on him. You joined the train. I even said, why are people joining this wagon. It was GS's wagon to begin with and for horrible reasons.

[Muerrto]

Scum Muerrto: Wait, people don't like the idea of testing the mason's? Ok, I'll back down and fit in and listen to the town.

Town Muerrto: You're all wrong, period. If they live till LYLO and cause us a loss it's on all of your heads and I'll be sure to say I told you so.

Hence:

As for the masons, having a different opinion isn't scummy. If we don't test the masons, we'll regret it later, all I'm going to say about that since I'm in the minority. But I will be sure to say I told you so when it comes up.

Anyone voting or even CONSIDERING voting me for that is scummy and looking to start a wagon(except Rofl apparently according to everyone else and maybe he's just playing poorly like the first 20 pages, he seems to leap around alot on who he thinks is scum).

@Armlx: This is completely in character for me. I don't give a crap what everyone else thinks, I know I'm right and if they're scum and win because of it then it's gonna suck.

@Rofl: You're right, I can't stand you just from reading your posts. BUT, you're contributing and your partner(be it mason or scum) isn't, period.

There's 4 scum. Anyone who thinks the mason plan isn't sheer genius on the part of the scum is the one's who retarded. You can look at how the whole town immediately cleared them both to see that.

[strife220]

Mason plan would be fine for scum if there wasn't a (really good) chance of getting counterclaimed and knocking it down to 2 scum on the first day. No mafia would take such a stupid risk.

[Muerrto]

No mason would claim in his first post IMO but hey...

[StrangerCoug]

No mason would claim in his first post IMO but hey...

roflcopter claimed mason on his ninth post.

[silence]

The masons aren't completely cleared, there is a _small_ possibility of a fakeclaim: high risk of losing 2 scummies but also a high reward.

However, vigging/lynching them now doesn't make any sense. We can do that later, there is the possibility that we get lucky and confirm them by lynch three scummies early. And if we have a cop (or two), he can test them tonight or later. Also, the argument of using the vig kill so that 'we don't have to waste a lynch' is bad, wasting a vig kill is as bad (or worse) as wasting a lynch.

If the claimed masons are real, we obviously want to keep them alive as long as possible. If scum and SK want to kill non-masons, they are more likely to hit each other. If they for some reason want to kill masons, they are more likely to hit the same person so that we get one more townie to survive the day.

As for the masons, having a different opinion isn't scummy. If we don't test the masons, we'll regret it later, all I'm going to say about that since I'm in the minority. But I will be sure to say I told you so when it comes up.

Having a different opinion is scummy if that opinion is clearly harmful to town.

FoS: Muerrto

Another suspect is strife220. Trying to ban discussion about strategic issues as a 'matter of opinion' and then attacking Lowell based on the mason plan suggestion.