Mini 594 - Satin Doll Showdown - {GAME OVER}

[Incognito]

If you could see it as timing in one case, why not in the other?

Because in one case, you yourself mentioned that it was timing-related so I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. In the other case, your posting history looks semi-decent so I'm less willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

[hasdgfas]

Thank you for ignoring everything else I said about that same thing in the same post.

[Incognito]

In addition, Ether's two posts had very different tones. One said she was more sure eldarad was town, and I understand that people feel differently about other players. However, her second post mentioned her 'clearing' of eldarad. That, when I do feel like someone is scum, requires a comment much more than simply thinking someone town.

Are you talking about these two posts:

I noticed the reference, but I don't think that's a tell either way. He didn't appear to have any better examples he could cite.

Also, on Glork, he seems to be scum trying to act like town by not paying a lot of attention to me. He didn't do that much suspecting of me at the beginning-now of me. So I'll do a

FOS:Glork

At this point, after doing the conversation with Glork in-thread, I'm inclined to believe his more.

This switch,

because

it required prompting every inch of the way, just feels genuine to me.

But Eldarad still needs to post.

I am even more sure now that Eldarad is town. There is one situation in which my newest tell on him would cease to be true, but I don't find it at all likely. I'd rather not get into it right now. He and Mizzy really need to stop fighting.

Here is where Ether issued her challenge:

I am taken aback by the reaction to my stunningly insightful clearing of Eldarad.

This challenge came two days after 653 and then you finally commented on her 653 only after the challenge post. That's what I'm getting at.

[hasdgfas]

I'm talking about 653->655.

[Mizzy]

Okay, I suppose I can see where Incog and has are both coming from. Gah.

My personal opinion is that Eld has a haze of scumminess around him, but I am willing to give him another chance. Like I said before, I would rather be proved wrong when I think a townie is scum than not.

So, Ether wants a cowlynch...who do you guys see cow as being paired with? Not a really important question at this point but I'm curious.

[Incognito]

Current deadline: July 14th, 4:00 PM EST

Hm. People should begin placing their votes where their mouths are very, very soon.

[hasdgfas]

I was doing a little bit of rereading, and came across this:

But given that I'm not under suspicion - apart from a dodgy vote from Hascow - there's really no point going out of the way to clear me based on meta.

I'd like to know why eldarad thinks my vote on him is "dodgy".

[Mizzy]

So, other than the cow hatefest, it looks like Poker may be being looked at, too. Whyfor other than Ether's challenge thing?

[PokerFace]

who do you guys see cow as being paired with? Not a really important question at this point but I'm curious.

Well I mentioned earlier what my thoughts were on who is scum. I am fairly certain the remaining scum is in the top four list of suspects that I gave. I am fine with lynching Cow. I don't see his back and forth exchange with eld/ssk as something that would make one of them not scum. Call it distancing if you want either way I am still down with all that. As things stand I'd like to give Erg0 some time to comment and finish his analysis. I will vote cow before the day ends I assure you, but I'd like to see what Erg0 has before the lynch is done. I am relativly free this weekend so getting in a vote will be easy. I just got nightkilled in a few of my games aswell so I got more free time now. At this moment Cow has half majority anyway so I don't see a need to vote him instantly since his lynch looks rather inevitable.

[PokerFace]

I am even more sure now that Eldarad is town. There is one situation in which my newest tell on him would cease to be true, but I don't find it at all likely. I'd rather not get into it right now. He and Mizzy really need to stop fighting.

I think I know what you are refering to, but I am not so certain it clears ether of them completly. Some wifom maybe involved thar.

(If you don't get what I mean then we must not be thinking the same thing)

Oh and a simple yes or no question. Ether did you understand what I meant?

[Ether]

I want Scot to get back and Erg0 to finish. I'd prefer an Erg0lynch over a PFlynch tomorrow, but I don't really feel like providing reasons for this.

I don't remember PF ever asking me about Eldarad. Assumptions, sure, but not really any questions, except to clarify that we were on the same page and he could disregard my

true

thoughts as WIFOM. We've apparently got that cryptic thang going on.

(wink wink fist pump clasp hands wiggle left foot hello Acid)

Oh and a simple yes or no question. Ether did you understand what I meant?

Most likely. Wow, I feel stupid doing this.

[Erg0]

I haven't got everything written up, but if I wait much longer to vote then it'll be too close to deadline, so summaries will have to do for now.

At this point, I'm feeling best about Elmo and scot, based on consistency from both and what appears in hindsight to be a fairly opportunistic wagon hop onto Elmo by Tar on day 1.

hasdgfas, Mizzy and eldarad/SSK are all borderline based on a failure to really address Tar at crucial points in the game. I think there's a good chance that exactly one of these three is scum.

I'm thinking that Incog is probably town, or else he set himself up really badly by having Glork and Tar as his top suspects at the start of day 2. A few specific posts have pinged my scumdar (particularly where he put hasdgfas forward as the best partner for Glork

and

Tar), but nothing substantial enough to make me suspicious of him right now. It's possible that he's scum if Eldarad is, otherwise I doubt it.

I'm a little iffy on Ether, but I don't think she's a good lynch for today. I'll expand on this in my final summary.

PokerFace was back and forth on Tar a little on day 1, but there definitely looked like a possible link existed. What I really don't like about him, though, is that he was the only person who found the obvious hole in my (stated) reasoning for believing Glork over Tar on day 2 (here), but he didn't do anything about it. His timidity in defending Tar makes me think that he knew Tar was scum and didn't want to be seen as directly supporting him.

hasdgfas is probably an acceptable lynch from an information perspective, especially if he's scum, but there's nothing about his play in and of itself that makes me think that he's any more likely to be a bad guy than Mizzy or eldarad. I have a much stronger feeling about PF at the moment, and that's where my vote is going.

Vote: PokerFace

[Mizzy]

I will be on V/LoA for today and tomorrow. Sorry, emergency came up! Will hopefully be able to post but I can't guarantee.

[Incognito]

PokerFace was back and forth on Tar a little on day 1, but there definitely looked like a possible link existed. What I really don't like about him, though, is that he was the only person who found the obvious hole in my (stated) reasoning for believing Glork over Tar on day 2 (here), but he didn't do anything about it. His timidity in defending Tar makes me think that he knew Tar was scum and didn't want to be seen as directly supporting him.

Erg0, can you point out where specifically in that large post from PokerFace that he found the obvious hole in your reasoning for believing Glork over Tar? I could've sworn your change in stance on the Glork/Tar stuff came here: Post 463 which came two posts after PF's 461.

Caffy Taffy, I got this from a Laffy Taffy: What's an owl's favorite subject? -- Owlgebra!

[Ether]

Duly noted, but stop calling me that.

[Erg0]

PokerFace was back and forth on Tar a little on day 1, but there definitely looked like a possible link existed. What I really don't like about him, though, is that he was the only person who found the obvious hole in my (stated) reasoning for believing Glork over Tar on day 2 (here), but he didn't do anything about it. His timidity in defending Tar makes me think that he knew Tar was scum and didn't want to be seen as directly supporting him.

Erg0, can you point out where specifically in that large post from PokerFace that he found the obvious hole in your reasoning for believing Glork over Tar? I could've sworn your change in stance on the Glork/Tar stuff came here: Post 463 which came two posts after PF's 461.

I'm referring to the fact that I voted Tar based on reasoning which contradicted Glork's answers to my questions. PF had just noted the conversation that I had with Glork on the subject, and noted that Glork's initial answer that his role didn't affect his play on day 1 was (at least partially) inaccurate. I let Glork's contradiction slide because I never expected him to answer me honestly, regardless of his alignment - but I never explicitly said that I was doing this. PokerFace never raised this as an issue, despite noting and commenting on my vote after I made it.

[Elmo]

Okay, I've briefly gone over the game again.

Hmmm. PokerFace is really into metagaming (c.f. 158 and like every day 1 post) but leaves it until 633 to say "I think i may be dealing with the same Elmo I saw in 'Dynamite Stick Mafia'", after voting to lynch me day 1 for play that seems similar, if not better - I lurked the entire game, for one. This is one thing that bugged me, but I didn't quite pin down until now. You've been metagaming, but ignore the one game we've been in together to jump onto a scum-led wagon? Explain.

I'm struggling to understand why the wagon on me formed if cow's town. It

looks

like a classical counter-wagon. I'd be fairly happy lynching him, I think, but I think I'd prefer PF, since his tells seem relatively more direct. Perhaps I'm just being contrary, here.. I'm pretty happy arbitrarily killing either of them.

Ether could be scum. I'm kind of mulling that one. I don't want to lynch her today. That's about it.

[PokerFace]

I want Scot to get back and Erg0 to finish. I'd prefer an Erg0lynch over a PFlynch tomorrow, but I don't really feel like providing reasons for this.

I don't remember PF ever asking me about Eldarad. Assumptions, sure, but not really any questions, except to clarify that we were on the same page and he could disregard my

true

thoughts as WIFOM. We've apparently got that cryptic thang going on.

(wink wink fist pump clasp hands wiggle left foot hello Acid)

Oh and a simple yes or no question. Ether did you understand what I meant?

Most likely. Wow, I feel stupid doing this.

Hmm perhaps we are talking about the same thing and i am just looking at it differently then. I didn't mean to imply it was all wifom. I see a only some elements of wifom involved with clearing them both. I guess I'll look at that entire matter during the night and see if I should reconsider anything. At any rate still down for Cow lynch. I'll vote on monday morning when I wake up to go to work. Hopefully Scotmany should have enough time to say something by then. I forgot he was on v/la.

_________________

I'm referring to the fact that I voted Tar based on reasoning which contradicted Glork's answers to my questions.

PF had just noted the conversation that I had with Glork on the subject, and noted that Glork's initial answer that his role didn't affect his play on day 1 was (at least partially) inaccurate. I let Glork's contradiction slide because I never expected him to answer me honestly, regardless of his alignment - but I never explicitly said that I was doing this. PokerFace never raised this as an issue, despite noting and commenting on my vote after I made it.

Um, I believe I did later note (a little before day 2 ended) that some of your coments with Glork led me to think you would vote Glork until you had your epiphany.

As far as Glork being scum I think I'd see him with Elmo and one other. Though i did like Elmo's last post, despite the fact some of his points look like repitition of points made by others. The other person I'd partly consider glork with would be Erg0. I originally thought Erg0 was going to vote Glork today because one of his early comments gave me that impression. The words he uses as he discusses Glork look like implication of a stronger suspicion then what he says about tarhalindur.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 35#1088435
but since he has had his epiphany and gone the other way I've started to wonder if there may be something there. I wouldn't call it a strong suspicion of a conection though.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 70#1099270

Yes I didn't exactly say your questions and Glork's answer's, but this was the general impression I had gotten. And I guess I did not look/go that deeply into the "question and answer" aspect, because you letting it slide wasn't of absolute importance since I didn't see you as a lynch for day2. Now that you bring the whole subject up I may have to later look deeply into why you let it all slide . Better compare the strength of your early exchange vs your epiphany, and see if you had good reason to let it slide or not and if you might have a more reasonable link to Tarhalindur.

_________________

Hmmm. PokerFace is really into metagaming (c.f. 158 and like every day 1 post) but leaves it until 633 to say "I think i may be dealing with the same Elmo I saw in 'Dynamite Stick Mafia'", after voting to lynch me day 1 for play that seems similar, if not better - I lurked the entire game, for one. This is one thing that bugged me, but I didn't quite pin down until now. You've been metagaming, but ignore the one game we've been in together to jump onto a scum-led wagon? Explain.

When I meta I don't like taking ongoing games into account, but sometimes I still do it somewhat despite trying to ignore it. Dynamite mafia 'ended' during this game and up until you struck a light and went boom in Dynamite, I thought you were scum in both games. You went boom on Jun1st-Jun2nd of Dynamite Mafia. And Day 1 ended in this game on May29th before I learned I was wrong about you in dynamite. When I learned I was wrong in one game was when I began to wonder if I was wrong here.

Like i said earlier I'll vote on monday. And I'd also like to see elderad's answer to Cow's question in post 681 before the day ends. later

[eldarad]

Hmm. I thought I knew what Ether was hinting at, but I have no clue what PokerFace is referring to... Anyway, it's still not important unless my towniness is genuinely questioned, so I'm going to skip over it. Maybe we can talk about it Day 4.

~~~

I'd like to know why eldarad thinks my vote on him is "dodgy".

Your whole basis for your vote was post 638. You never mentioned anything about me before then (although there was some sniping at MafiaSSK early on), so that post is the entirety of your case on me.

So what you're saying is that you were happy with an Elmo lynch, but did not want to be seen to support it openly. I find the difference between outright support and acquiescence to be nil in that situation, and that fact that you chose to hide your support for the Elmo lynch by simply letting it happen rather than place a vote makes me very suspicious.

That is not at all what I was saying. Has there ever been a lynch that looked like it was going to happen yet you disagreed with and you couldn't really do anything about?
That's what that was for me. I wasn't really happy with an Elmo lynch either, as the wagon grew far too quickly.
This twisting of my words and putting words in my mouth is very suspicious to me.

Sorry, but that's exactly what you were saying. Whatever you thought of the Elmo wagon, you preferred it to your own lynch. You didn't attempt to stop the Elmo wagon, and you allowed it to happen without committing to it yourself.
Accusing me of "twisting your words" is just...empty. In addition, Glork agreed with what I was saying, and he's guaranteed town. So even if you think I'm wrong, I don't see how you can question my sincerity.

Anyways, I still think eldarad/SSK is scummy, and SSK claiming that scum will go after lurkers more than town, or whatever it was that he said, is ridiculous. Also note that he flipped scum in that game.

The issue isn't whether MafiaSSK was wrong - the issue is whether he was sincere. How does that further SSK's scum agenda?
The fact that MafiaSSK flipped scum in the other game doesn't mean anything.

Your whole reasoning for voting me was hollow. You just did it to be consistent with your SSKhate from earlier, but you had nothing on me, and you still don't.

Unless Hascow has something really important to say, the upshot of all that is that I'm happy with a cowlynch Today.

vote Hascow

Mizzy, I could see a Hascow-PokerFace pairing. Other people I could see as scum? Most people, actually. I reckon everyone here can play as scum well, which makes we worried about how easy this game seems to be so far.

~~~
I won't be at home for the next week (due to my international accountancy lifestyle ) so I'll have limited access.

[scotmany12]

Hi, back now. Busy with things at the moment. Will be catching up over the week, most likely tomorrow since that is the deadline. Thanks for not replacing OGML.

[hasdgfas]

A question to all before I'm lynched, as there's no way it's going to change unless something really weird happens.
When I flip town, who are you going after? Don't avoid the question by saying that it doesn't matter either.

I'd like to know why eldarad thinks my vote on him is "dodgy".

Your whole basis for your vote was post 638. You never mentioned anything about me before then (although there was some sniping at MafiaSSK early on), so that post is the entirety of your case on me.

eldarad, Day 2 was basically a huge discussion about Tar v Glork. I didn't really have time or need to do an extensive post about you, because that would have just distracted everyone.

So what you're saying is that you were happy with an Elmo lynch, but did not want to be seen to support it openly. I find the difference between outright support and acquiescence to be nil in that situation, and that fact that you chose to hide your support for the Elmo lynch by simply letting it happen rather than place a vote makes me very suspicious.

That is not at all what I was saying. Has there ever been a lynch that looked like it was going to happen yet you disagreed with and you couldn't really do anything about?
That's what that was for me. I wasn't really happy with an Elmo lynch either, as the wagon grew far too quickly.
This twisting of my words and putting words in my mouth is very suspicious to me.

Sorry, but that's exactly what you were saying. Whatever you thought of the Elmo wagon, you preferred it to your own lynch. You didn't attempt to stop the Elmo wagon, and you allowed it to happen without committing to it yourself.
Accusing me of "twisting your words" is just...empty. In addition, Glork agreed with what I was saying, and he's guaranteed town. So even if you think I'm wrong, I don't see how you can question my sincerity.[/quote]
Eldarad, are you saying that if I had jumped on Elmo, you wouldn't be jumping all over me for just voting him to try to save myself? Because that's what I've seen in those sort of situations before. I just think you're harping on this for no good reason and that you would have no matter how I handled it.

Anyways, I still think eldarad/SSK is scummy, and SSK claiming that scum will go after lurkers more than town, or whatever it was that he said, is ridiculous. Also note that he flipped scum in that game.

The issue isn't whether MafiaSSK was wrong - the issue is whether he was sincere. How does that further SSK's scum agenda?
The fact that MafiaSSK flipped scum in the other game doesn't mean anything.

If SSK is lurkerscum, why wouldn't he try to convince people that he was doing it for a reason?
How can you say that him flipping scum in the other game means nothing? Please explain further.

Unless Hascow has something really important to say, the upshot of all that is that I'm happy with a cowlynch Today.

vote Hascow

So if I do have something important to say, you're not happy with lynching me? I don't understand why this is here at all.

[OhGodMyLife]

28th vote count

hasdgfas - 4 (scotmany12, Incognito, Ether, eldarad)
PokerFace - 2 (Elmo, Erg0)
eldarad - 1 (hasdgfas)

Not Voting - 2 (PokerFace, Mizzy)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Current deadline: July 14th, 4:00 PM EST

18 hours from this post.

[Mizzy]

I think I agree with Ergo here. I would be okay with a cow lynch, for the basic information, but I would have preferred a PF lynch. Since a hammer is not needed for a deadline lynch, I am going to put my vote where my opinion is.

Vote: PokerFace

[Mizzy]

Oh, before anything earth-shaking happens, here's my scumdar, 1 being town-reading and 10 being scum-reading. 5 = undecided.

scotmany12 - 1
Elmo - 1
Erg0 - 2
Incognito - 4
Ether - 5
eldarad - 6
hasdgfas - 8
PokerFace - 9

[Ether]

I still prefer a Cowlynch over a PFlynch. I haven't the slightest idea where Mizzy got her read on Erg0 from.

Erg0, what led you to drop the counterwagon Tar pushed for hasdgfas's sake on Day 1 and put him on par with Eldarad and Mizzy in your final summary?

When I flip town, who are you going after? Don't avoid the question by saying that it doesn't matter either.

Eh, still Erg0 or PF in that case.